Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Vesper]

Yeah Curze was in a pretty bad situation when the Lion drove his sword through him, but he came back, this is the point anything could of happened.

 

Absolutly. If someone stopped the fight after Lion just stabbed Curze, I would be saying that Curze was in a hell of a situation, just like the Lion is at the end of the actual fight. Because in "everything could happen" also mean the worst could happen. The Lion, here, could have struck the coup de grâce to Curze, or, in our situation, Curze could have chocked him to death.

 

But in the end, who freaking cares ?

[Emperor's Furor]

I don't know, I was merely responding to the on going too and fro that said Kurze had beaten the Lion or that the Dark Angels were awesome etc.

[Augustus]

Then the Lion beats Kurze in 60 seconds and leaves him for dead.

 

So what we should take from those 5th Edition Ultramarine Codex quotes is that no one bows to the 1st legion. ALL BOW BEFORE THE ULTRAMARINES.

 

lol

 

I disagree with the Lion being the worst for his Legion. But I can see why many will agree.

[Vesper]

We live in a world were emotions tend to weight more than reason. I'm no fool, many people have their little favorites and don't really like when someone brings something that may "reduce" the level of awesomeness of ones Primarch/Legion. Try to say to an IF fan that Dorn was tricked in the Iron Cage or, if he attacked it willingly while knowing that is was a freaking ego-trap, then he was a retard. I bet you're in for several pages.

When in fact, it's all about storytelling. Curze having the upper hand on Lion leads to Corswain backstabing him, which leads to the rest of the novel. I understand people get pleasure by reading how their legion/chapter/primarch rocks and stuff, but I don't think that's pretty good, as it may hide the quality of writings that don't flatter you (or that part of you as a person).

And that is why if you want to do something good (I mean something that is good literature) and constructive in the 40k universe, that's super hard, as you'll most likely step into traps like many authors who make ultra bombastic characters that break the reality and the pleasure of reading as they are just laughable, or you'll be pressed by the fans, as an author, because you didn't made their faction win clearly enough, or something.

Look, ADB, after Savage Weapons, came on the DA subforum to talk about the very topic we were discussing. And people thought it made the DA look bad, or that ADB made Curze "win" because he's more a NL guy and stuff... I mean, people are really that way when they don't take the time to think about it.

 

It's all about weenies and that's pretty awful.

[Arkangilos]

Then the Lion beats Kurze in 60 seconds and leaves him for dead.

 

So what we should take from those 5th Edition Ultramarine Codex quotes is that no one bows to the 1st legion. ALL BOW BEFORE THE ULTRAMARINES.

 

lol

 

I disagree with the Lion being the worst for his Legion. But I can see why many will agree.

 

Well I don't think any of us actually think he was worse for his legion than Kurze.

 

I am just saying that he isn't any better for his legion then Rogal Dorn, and his legion isn't any better than the Black Templars, Flesh Tearers, or any other second founding chapter.

 

I mean, if people want to get real technical, the only first founding chapters left are the traitors, and even the Dark Angels as they are today are "second" founding, they were just the ones who lucked out with Heraldry and Name.

[Billuriye]

Try to say to an IF fan that Dorn was tricked in the Iron Cage or, if he attacked it willingly while knowing that is was a freaking ego-trap, then he was a retard.

 

Dorn was quite unhinged at that moment. The stone cracked after Horus Heresy.

[Wade Garrett]

I wish I could find that post ADB made where he said on any given day, any Primarch could beat any other Primarch if the right factors came into play. That made sense to me as a fan of mixed martial arts, a sport where you can take the same two guys and have them fight in the same cage and get a different result every time. Because Aaron, when one person is sitting on another person and strangling them, that person is winning the fight. Curze-Johnson I was no more a draw than Lorgar-Corax was.

I won't hold it against you, when I started quoting Wardexes trying to shut the Dark Angel fans up I lost that privilege.

And yes, the second time they thought Lion destroyed him. I say that puts them at 1-1. ADB needs to write a rubber match. ;)

 

Re: Dorn

If he wasn't one of the better Primarchs at strategy, why did he get to be in charge of the overall Imperial strategy in between Horus rebelling? The Emperor still had a soft spot for Horus and didn't want to demolish him utterly by putting Guilliman/Sanguinus/Russ/Lion/(Insert own favorite Primarch here) in command?

 

Re: Respect

My personal opinion is that some chapters, like the Templars, Minotaurs, Executioners, Marines Malevolent, and Space Wolves, do not give two hoots in Hell whether your Chapter was founded yesterday or was the first one to capture a planet during the Great Crusade. They back down and bow to their own Chapter Master, the Emperor, and no one else. Nothing against the Dark Angels personally.

[Arkangilos]

I wish I could find that post ADB made where he said on any given day, any Primarch could beat any other Primarch if the right factors came into play. That made sense to me as a fan of mixed martial arts, a sport where you can take the same two guys and have them fight in the same cage and get a different result every time. Because Aaron, when one person is sitting on another person and strangling them, that person is winning the fight. Curze-Johnson I was no more a draw than Lorgar-Corax was.

I won't hold it against you, when I started quoting Wardexes trying to shut the Dark Angel fans up I lost that privilege.

And yes, the second time they thought Lion destroyed him. I say that puts them at 1-1. ADB needs to write a rubber match. ;)

 

Re: Dorn

If he wasn't one of the better Primarchs at strategy, why did he get to be in charge of the overall Imperial strategy in between Horus rebelling? The Emperor still had a soft spot for Horus and didn't want to demolish him utterly by putting Guilliman/Sanguinus/Russ/Lion/(Insert own favorite Primarch here) in command?

 

Re: Respect

My personal opinion is that some chapters, like the Templars, Minotaurs, Executioners, Marines Malevolent, and Space Wolves, do not give two hoots in Hell whether your Chapter was founded yesterday or was the first one to capture a planet during the Great Crusade. They back down and bow to their own Chapter Master, the Emperor, and no one else. Nothing against the Dark Angels personally.

 

 

Well, ADB is right, with the right conditions any primarch could be any other primarch. But it is like that with any army. I mean, a bunch of untrained (compared to what they were fighting) managed to beat three entire legions of well trained Romans in a single battle in 9 AD, and that was practically unheard of, considering Roman Legions had rarely suffered defeat.The thirteen colonies managed to beat the greatest army of the time with a bunch of militia and a poorly trained army (compared to what we fought), the Russian conscripts managed to beat the most well trained military in WW2, the Imperial Guard managed to hold off against the Tyranids, etc. etc.

 

Re: Dorn-

Well, he was led into a trap. I'd actually be surprised if IF fans denied that.

 

Also, I would imagine that Dorn got overall command because he was the Primarch that was there in the beginning, and you know, since he was building the defenses, it would only make sense that he would command them. IIRC, it was said earlier that another primarch had overall command of Istavaan V. Guilliman didn't have overall command because he was off in Ultramar, and it is hard to have them leading the defenses and counter actions from there. Sanguinius wasn't in overall command because he was tied up at Signus Prime when it started. They all had their places, and Dorn was in his, leading the defense of his awesome defenses.

 

Re: Respect

Well, the BT had been around for just as long as the Dark Angels. First, they were originally part of the Imperial Fists (literally), and second if you go by the whole second founding thing, they were founded at the EXACT same time as the Dark Angels Chapter. But yes, you are most definitely correct.

[Legatus]

Re: Dorn

If he wasn't one of the better Primarchs at strategy, why did he get to be in charge of the overall Imperial strategy in between Horus rebelling? The Emperor still had a soft spot for Horus and didn't want to demolish him utterly by putting Guilliman/Sanguinus/Russ/Lion/(Insert own favorite Primarch here) in command?

One possible answer could be that Dorn was the only one around when it became known that Horus had betrayed the Imperium, with Russ being on an errant, Jonson and Guilliman being at the far reaches of the galaxy and unable to be contacted, and Sanguinius and Khan too only joining the defenders of Terra shortly before the traitor forces arrived, IIRC. In previous accounts, Dorn had held no such command. In earlier sources it even was Sanguinius who was described as leading the defense of Terra, while of course Guilliman had very early been described as the first man to command all of the Imperial forces. The role for Dorn to be in command of the Imperial Forces came up with the Horus Heresy artbook and novels, as far as I am aware. It is in these sources that Dorn is also described as the supremely gifted strategist. The eariler sources about the Imperial Fists, indeed where their reputation as a "siege" army was based on, described them as excellent planners, but very inflexible in their formation, with all of their companies being organised identically, and with their commanders being described as "unimaginative". This meant that they were excellent when defending or attacking static positions: Rigid, immovable formations in the offense and defense, with excellent planning, and in "static" engagements no need for redeployment of forces or major changes in the plan. When they adopted the Codex Astartes doctrines their formations became much more flexible and they routinely started to employ the broader range of tactical approaches, according to the Index Astartes article.

[Billuriye]

Why people keep saying Dorn was led into a trap? He wasn't led, he went straight to it knowing what will cost him. It was basically purification through pain and misery. It's not stupid but it's borderline Slaaneshi stuff.

[Arkangilos]

Why people keep saying Dorn was led into a trap? He wasn't led, he went straight to it knowing what will cost him. It was basically purification through pain and misery. It's not stupid but it's borderline Slaaneshi stuff.

 

Well yeah, but it is still described as a trap. They were expecting a central keep, and all of that, and they "trapped" the Fists in there.

 

He was led into a trap, but it wasn't like the Istavaan V style trap. It was like the Battle of Endor style trap. They knew they were attacking the Death Star, they just didn't know about the rest of the fleet and the operational guns.

[Vesper]

Why people keep saying Dorn was led into a trap? He wasn't led, he went straight to it knowing what will cost him. It was basically purification through pain and misery. It's not stupid but it's borderline Slaaneshi stuff.

 

Well yeah, but it is still described as a trap. They were expecting a central keep, and all of that, and they "trapped" the Fists in there.

 

He was led into a trap, but it wasn't like the Istavaan V style trap. It was like the Battle of Endor style trap. They knew they were attacking the Death Star, they just didn't know about the rest of the fleet and the operational guns.

Now you're starting to see how people could deny that RG was tricked ;). And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Well, ADB is right, with the right conditions any primarch could be any other primarch. But it is like that with any army. I mean, a bunch of untrained (compared to what they were fighting) managed to beat three entire legions of well trained Romans in a single battle in 9 AD, and that was practically unheard of, considering Roman Legions had rarely suffered defeat.The thirteen colonies managed to beat the greatest army of the time with a bunch of militia and a poorly trained army (compared to what we fought), the Russian conscripts managed to beat the most well trained military in WW2, the Imperial Guard managed to hold off against the Tyranids, etc. etc.

The last part was during the Napoleonic Wars, right ? Ahh, History with a capital H.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Then the Lion beats Kurze in 60 seconds and leaves him for dead.

 

So what we should take from those 5th Edition Ultramarine Codex quotes is that no one bows to the 1st legion. ALL BOW BEFORE THE ULTRAMARINES.

 

lol

 

I disagree with the Lion being the worst for his Legion. But I can see why many will agree.

Well, the Dark Angels are still in existence and don't have to live in a nightmarish world subjected to the whims of dark gods, so they have that advantage right off the bat.

 

I mean, the more we "learn" about the Lion (as in, the more the Black Library alters the fluff of the Dark Angels), the more he seems like a paranoid sociopath. But he didn't get them erased (II & XI), and he didn't get them exiled to the Warp/Maelstrom (most of the traitor Legions).

[daveNYC]

Well you do have to kind of limit the question to around the time of the Heresy. Otherwise 'turned 90% of the legion into dust' would win every time.

[Kol Saresk]

Then the Lion beats Kurze in 60 seconds and leaves him for dead.

 

So what we should take from those 5th Edition Ultramarine Codex quotes is that no one bows to the 1st legion. ALL BOW BEFORE THE ULTRAMARINES.

 

lol

 

I disagree with the Lion being the worst for his Legion. But I can see why many will agree.

Well, the Dark Angels are still in existence and don't have to live in a nightmarish world subjected to the whims of dark gods, so they have that advantage right off the bat.

 

I mean, the more we "learn" about the Lion (as in, the more the Black Library alters the fluff of the Dark Angels), the more he seems like a paranoid sociopath. But he didn't get them erased (II & XI), and he didn't get them exiled to the Warp/Maelstrom (most of the traitor Legions).

Is it really altering if 1.)there wasn't really anything to begin with and 2.)if the GW IP department(you know, the guys who created most of the stuff) approve it and 3.)it was different from the original material before BL ever got its hands on it?

[Wade Garrett]

and he didn't get ALL OF them exiled to the Warp/Maelstrom (most of the traitor Legions).

 

Original quote slightly altered to account for the Fallen. :D

[MadDoc]

Original quote slightly altered to account for the Fallen. :blink:

and he didn't get ANY OF them exiled to the Warp/Maelstrom (most of the traitor Legions).

Your alteration has been altered so that its now accurate.

 

Luther was responsible for the fate of the Fallen, not the Lion.

[Wade Garrett]

Luther was responsible for the fate of the Fallen, not the Lion.

 

Oh, you mean the man Lion 'El Johnson hand picked to rule his Legion's homeworld.

I have no idea what I was thinking when I thought some of the blame for that little fiasco might be laid at the feet of the I Primarch.

 

"Who is more foolish, a fool in a position of power...or the one who placed a fool in the position of power?"

[Kol Saresk]

On an interesting side note, Luther is also the man who found the Lion, had the most influence over the Lion and is more than partially responsible for the Lion's behavior towards others, much as a parent carries some responsibility for how their children act. So in all honesty if we want to make it perfectly black-and-white as "This one person did it", it still falls on Luther as he is the human who had influence over the Lion, he is the human who chose to practice sorcery, he is most likely the reason why Caliban never heard of the Edict and he is more than definitely at least part of the reason for Caliban even wanting to secede from the Imperium, not the Lion. The Lion isn't even responsible for what happened to his Legion after Caliban as he was put into stasis afterwards and the Dark Angels had to choose what to do by themselves. They chose to keep the secret within their own ranks. They chose to compartmentalize the information to the point only a few select individuals actually know the whole story, or at least the biased "Legion returning home" side of it. And they have chosen to continue that tradition and they have chosen to become obsessed with the Fallen to the point that sometimes, they are no better than the Traitors they hunt in the sacrifices they are willing to make. Now, the Lion is not innocent in this, no way no how. But he is not the sole blame either. He chose to send some of the Legion home. He chose to basically abandon Caliban to Luther. He chose to become a pawn of the Watchers in the Dark. There are other things to blame him for too but they aren't popping into mind. In reality, very few of the Primarchs are solely to blame for the problems that arose in their Legion. Actually, point of case would be that the history of the Legions is nothing more than a case study of "cause and effect" and how something small and inconsequential fifty years ago can lead to a huge clusterbomb now.

[Wade Garrett]

On an interesting side note, Luther is also the man who found the Lion, had the most influence over the Lion and is more than partially responsible for the Lion's behavior towards others, much as a parent carries some responsibility for how their children act. So in all honesty if we want to make it perfectly black-and-white as "This one person did it", it still falls on Luther as he is the human who had influence over the Lion, he is the human who chose to practice sorcery, he is most likely the reason why Caliban never heard of the Edict and he is more than definitely at least part of the reason for Caliban even wanting to secede from the Imperium, not the Lion.

 

Can't argue with this.

Issue dropped, will concede that Lion doesn't bear responsiblity for his Legion's fate the way Angron does for having a hand in turning Khârn from the voice of reason of the War Hounds into the guy we all know and love in 40k.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Then the Lion beats Kurze in 60 seconds and leaves him for dead.

 

So what we should take from those 5th Edition Ultramarine Codex quotes is that no one bows to the 1st legion. ALL BOW BEFORE THE ULTRAMARINES.

 

lol

 

I disagree with the Lion being the worst for his Legion. But I can see why many will agree.

Well, the Dark Angels are still in existence and don't have to live in a nightmarish world subjected to the whims of dark gods, so they have that advantage right off the bat.

 

I mean, the more we "learn" about the Lion (as in, the more the Black Library alters the fluff of the Dark Angels), the more he seems like a paranoid sociopath. But he didn't get them erased (II & XI), and he didn't get them exiled to the Warp/Maelstrom (most of the traitor Legions).

Is it really altering if 1.)there wasn't really anything to begin with and 2.)if the GW IP department(you know, the guys who created most of the stuff) approve it and 3.)it was different from the original material before BL ever got its hands on it?

I mean, if you add something that creates an entirely different interpretation of something, then yes, you've altered it.

 

I mean, yeah, we didn't know a lot about these guys in the past. But, some of them have changed dramatically in the way they were always presented. Who approved the change is somewhat irrelevant. It's still changed. And no, the guys currently in the GW IP department didn't create most of this stuff, lol. They're just the current custodians. The majority of the guys who actually created this stuff have moved on.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying these changes are all bad. I think Lionel Johnson is more interesting this way. But I hesitate to say "learned" because that implies it was a reality that we just came around to figuring out, as opposed to a narrative hook some author came up with a year or so ago while writing a novel about an existing characters/series of events.

 

Well you do have to kind of limit the question to around the time of the Heresy. Otherwise 'turned 90% of the legion into dust' would win every time.

I dunno, is this limited to the Heresy? I mean, ultimately, the choices of the Primarchs led their legions down the path to where they are at in 40K. For example, the World Eaters are a fractious band of lunatics because Angron stamped the Butcher's Nails into their heads, and then wandered off to leave Khârn in charge. The Dark Angels, on the other hand, are still a loyal Space Marine Chapter not living in the Warp, despite Lionel's issues. This is a 30K question which has its answers in 40K, really.

[Kol Saresk]

Well technically learning is the word we use to describe the action of finding out something new. :confused:

 

My point is just that BL isn't the only one adding to and changing the fluff. GW has been doing it since the very beginning and Forgeworld has been doing it as well. As much as we would all like to simplify it as BL is fluff, GW is rules and FW is minis, it just don't work out that way. Well, BL does only mess with the fluff I will give you that but it ain't the only one to do so. Amd everything they are doing, at least concerning the Heresy, goes through the grinder known as GW's IP Department so despite the variety of authors and BL's editorial lack of cohesiveness on keeping facts from contradicting each other, GW i just as much to blame for giving it the go-ahead as BL is for publishing it. Let me rephrase, replace the word "blame" with "responsible", it's more polite and gets the meaning across without people getting hung up on the negativity usually associated with the first word.

 

Also, a note that you might find interesting. I have noticed that the majority of conflicts specifically within the Heresy series are usually an author conflicting his newer work with his previous work. Not all of them, just a decent enough majority to warrant use of the adjective "most.

 

EDIT: Here's another way to put it. The topic of "fluff changes" is just like this thread, there is no one individual(or in this case, group) who has sole responsibility.

[DarthMarko]

Well technically learning is the word we use to describe the action of finding out something new. :P

 

My point is just that BL isn't the only one adding to and changing the fluff. GW has been doing it since the very beginning and Forgeworld has been doing it as well. As much as we would all like to simplify it as BL is fluff, GW is rules and FW is minis, it just don't work out that way. Well, BL does only mess with the fluff I will give you that but it ain't the only one to do so. Amd everything they are doing, at least concerning the Heresy, goes through the grinder known as GW's IP Department so despite the variety of authors and BL's editorial lack of cohesiveness on keeping facts from contradicting each other, GW i just as much to blame for giving it the go-ahead as BL is for publishing it. Let me rephrase, replace the word "blame" with "responsible", it's more polite and gets the meaning across without people getting hung up on the negativity usually associated with the first word.

 

Also, a note that you might find interesting. I have noticed that the majority of conflicts specifically within the Heresy series are usually an author conflicting his newer work with his previous work. Not all of them, just a decent enough majority to warrant use of the adjective "most.

 

EDIT: Here's another way to put it. The topic of "fluff changes" is just like this thread, there is no one individual(or in this case, group) who has sole responsibility.

Yeah, authors are very biased, I'm mean I was so pissed on Mcneill and what he did with the SW and freaking Russ (portrayed as totaly bad guys, just for the sake of story),which made a lot of rabid SW haters...Lucky some of us are old players and stick to the index/codex/my imagination thingy...Btw making some primarchs Mary Sues is really pissing me off...I wish they stop...

But @Kol - they are making soap opera out of heresy - and you'll see that in the end Lion will hold back against Luthor,could have killed him 1000 times, but didn't... Sanguinius vs Kabby (FtT) pissed me because Kabby should have beat Sanguinius, so that in battle for Terra we see a payback (ty Swallow for ruining that),and if they make Horus vs Sanguinius fight any more than Horus stomping an angel I will kill myself...

Btw I like Sanguinius, just don't like him being Mary Sue...

[Billuriye]

Yeah, authors are very biased, I'm mean I was so pissed on Mcneill and what he did with the SW and freaking Russ (portrayed as totaly bad guys, just for the sake of story),which made a lot of rabid SW haters...Lucky some of us are old players and stick to the index/codex/my imagination thingy...Btw making some primarchs Mary Sues is really pissing me off...I wish they stop...

 

I didn't get the vibe that SW was bad in Thousand Sons. Where did you get that? Plus i'm pretty sure there is no Mary Sue primarch. They were each potrayed with flaws. Infact in some cases, flaws were all they showed e.g. Ferrus Manus being retarded in Fulgrim.

[DarthMarko]

Yeah, authors are very biased, I'm mean I was so pissed on Mcneill and what he did with the SW and freaking Russ (portrayed as totaly bad guys, just for the sake of story),which made a lot of rabid SW haters...Lucky some of us are old players and stick to the index/codex/my imagination thingy...Btw making some primarchs Mary Sues is really pissing me off...I wish they stop...

 

I didn't get the vibe that SW was bad in Thousand Sons. Where did you get that? Plus i'm pretty sure there is no Mary Sue primarch. They were each potrayed with flaws. Infact in some cases, flaws were all they showed e.g. Ferrus Manus being retarded in Fulgrim.

Lol, about Ferrus...Dude, really - I'm browsing a lot of forums, and a lot of haters came out from that book just from the story...

about Mary Sues - Sanguinius & Rob, tell me one flaw about them...

Just don't mention that red thirst because it's dumb...