Kol Saresk Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 IIRC, Samguinius has always been the "flawless Primarch", once you get past legacy. That was the tragedy in his tale. He was the second best Primarch and the only Primarch who had a chance to defeat Horus. But ultimately, he was only second best while Horus was first... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Lol...Dude, really - I'm browsing a lot of forums, and a lot of haters came out from that book just from the story...about Mary Sues - Sanguinius & Rob, tell me one flaw about them... Just don't mention that red thirst because it's dumb... You got me with Sang, i can only say he lacks ambition and is too empathetic(My sons are killed *faint*). Also he looks like an angel which ain't cool for an Atheistic society like Imperium. As for Rob, he isn't very good with people. He's not a loner mind you but he isn't very popular either. Also he seems to have an high opinion of himself (that passage from KNF "i got the best parts of my good brothers while i don't have any faults of the rest of them.") He's basically like Horus except charisma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 He was the second best Primarch and the only Primarch who had a chance to defeat Horus. But ultimately, he was only second best while Horus was first... Disagree...this is very much your "heavy" bias and what BL is serving you today... Lol...Dude, really - I'm browsing a lot of forums, and a lot of haters came out from that book just from the story...about Mary Sues - Sanguinius & Rob, tell me one flaw about them... Just don't mention that red thirst because it's dumb... You got me with Sang, i can only say he lacks ambition and is too empathetic(My sons are killed *faint*). Also he looks like an angel which ain't cool for an Atheistic society like Imperium. As for Rob, he isn't very good with people. He's not a loner mind you but he isn't very popular either. Also he seems to have an high opinion of himself (that passage from KNF "i got the best parts of my good brothers while i don't have any faults of the rest of them.") He's basically like Horus except charisma. Well you got me with Rob then...Sang biggest flaw is that he is too empathetic ( *smack myself with coffe mug* )... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 No, that's not bias. As far back as I can remember and from what everything I have read(BL and GW), Horus was Warmaster because he was the best and it was always the opinion of everyone else that Sanguinius was always the Primarch who would be able to take Horus' place, he and Horus were always the closest of the Primarchs but when it came down to it, Horus was just the more powerful. It's not bias and it is not what "BL is feeding me." It is what GW wrote and BL is repeating so if it is bias, then GW is the one you need to look at, not me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Yeah Horus being the most powerful Primarch is official. One of few things that's consistent in the fluff actually. He's the best overall but is surpassed by his brothers who's more specialized in some matter(e.g. logistics). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 No, that's not bias. As far back as I can remember and from what everything I have read, Horus was Warmaster because he was the best and it was always the opinion of everyone else that Sanguinius was always the Primarch who would be able to take Horus' place, he and Horus were always the closest of the Primarchs but when it came down to it, Horus was just the more powerful. It's not bias and it is not what "BL is feeding me." It is what GW wrote and BL is repeating so if it is bias, then GW is the one you need to look at, not me. As I said - there are 4 candidates for a warmaster job (Dorn,Rob,Sang,Lion) and we've seen Horus changes his mind few times (first Dorn, then Ro-bu-te) and BL also... And I disagree with you that he is 2nd most powerful...that is your statment - not from GW and Bl (except that one liner from insecured Corax on who could take down Angron)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Well you got me with Rob then...Sang biggest flaw is that he is too empathetic ( *smack myself with coffe mug* )... Sanguinius is a character who's flaws are not obvious, nor self induced. He is supposed to be caring, charismatic, and a stereotypical "good guy". The angel among the best mankind has to offer to the galaxy(behind Horus of course) and a paragon for all that is good and righteous, which is why Horus thinks Sangy should have been Warmaster. Putting him on such a high pedestal is a setup for his tragedy where, symbolically and literally, mankind's best, these shining beacons people look up to in awe, are murdered by malevolent forces much much greater than us. Despite his best efforts throughout the Great Crusade and on the walls of Terra, he still failed his duty to give mankind a brighter future. There's a big catch, though, which most definitely does NOT make him a Mary Sue. His flaws are indeed in his very genetics, which day by day consumes his legion and probably would have consumed him given time. Despite all his charisma and strength, he could not solve this problem and had he not been sacrificed at Terra, he very well could have fallen and been a Horus 2.0. IIRC, Horus was just as perfect if not more so than Sanguinius before his rebirth at Davin. Heck, Horus didn't have problems with his genetics either... For me personally, I prefer that Sanguinius has a "flawless" personality (archetypical good guy). It's unique in the Warhammer setting and fits quite nicely because he dies, which follows the "good guys in 40k die fast" theme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Yeah Horus being the most powerful Primarch is official. One of few things that's consistent in the fluff actually. He's the best overall but is surpassed by his brothers who's more specialized in some matter(e.g. logistics). Did somebody say LOGISTICS??????????????? I swear, C:SM didnt get divination in 6th because we are going to have access to LOGISTICS psychic powers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 There's a big catch, though, which most definitely does NOT make him a Mary Sue. His flaws are indeed in his very genetics, which day by day consumes his legion and probably would have consumed him given time. Despite all his charisma and strength, he could not solve this problem and had he not been sacrificed at Terra, he very well could have fallen and been a Horus 2.0. IIRC, Horus was just as perfect if not more so than Sanguinius before his rebirth at Davin. Heck, Horus didn't have problems with his genetics either... Yes it does, Mary Sue isn't complete without a cool dark flaw which makes him even cooler....(as I said don't use red thirst 'cause its dumb IMHO)... - let's see : - almost half of the legions had genetics flaws, their flaw is becoming bloodcrazed killers (what a flaw, damn I feal sorry for them...NOOT) - he has wings (that sucks, he can fly, damn) - he looks like an angel - is a psyker to a degree - he didn't become 2nd Horus (he should have, then I would love him) - he is too damn neutral in a fanboy discussions :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Yeah Horus being the most powerful Primarch is official. One of few things that's consistent in the fluff actually. He's the best overall but is surpassed by his brothers who's more specialized in some matter(e.g. logistics). Did somebody say LOGISTICS??????????????? I swear, C:SM didnt get divination in 6th because we are going to have access to LOGISTICS psychic powers! Logistics - I'll always piss myself when somebody mentions that as ultimate 40k war-skill... Sorry about DP... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I don't think Sanguinius would have fallen. See, he had total control over the Red Thirst (which is why on Baal, he snapped when fighting the mutants to save his tribes, becoming extremely ferocious). His sons, however, inherited this, but did not inherit the control of it. At least, that's how I see it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Did Sanguinius even have Red Thirst? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Did Sanguinius even have Red Thirst? Sort of. He would lose himself in a red rage and slaughter anyone who opposed him or endangered his people. +Edit+ Thats the impression I got from every source with him. Including the IA article for the Blood Angels describing when he killed the mutants of Baal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Sort of. He would lose himself in a red rage and slaughter anyone who opposed him or endangered his people. +Edit+ Thats the impression I got from every source with him. Including the IA article for the Blood Angels describing when he killed the mutants of Baal. It's not an affliction though right? He's just gets super angry. Kinda like Russ not having Curse of Wulfen or Magnus not having Flesh Change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Commander Danek Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is it really altering if 1.)there wasn't really anything to begin with and 2.)if the GW IP department(you know, the guys who created most of the stuff) approve it and 3.)it was different from the original material before BL ever got its hands on it? Yes, it is. "Really wasn't anything to begin with" can be seen as personal interpretation. The GW IP dept that currently exists had very little ( Merrett) to nothing to do with old fluff are just caretakers. But caretakers who interpret their job in a different way most caretakers of franchise fiction do. Hence why it's so difficult for us as fans to grasp the mercurial and contradictory nature of it. Back on topic though, still say Angron. All this talk about the lion however does make me want to read the newer Dark Angels stuff I must admit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Commander Danek Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Can't help but feel the bashing on Sanguinus is unfounded. He is supposed to be angelic and "pure". Remember that the Heresy is 9or was. whatever) a sci fi take on biblical mythology with other notions tossed in for good measure, with Sanguinus playing the part of the angelic martyr, or even better, Baldr the Good. Just as Baldrs death and the unveiling of Loki's deceit opens Odin's eyes to what must be done in regards to Loki, Sanguinus' death is the vehicle used to open the Emperor's eyes as to what must be done with Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Can't help but feel the bashing on Sanguinus is unfounded. He is supposed to be angelic and "pure". Remember that the Heresy is 9or was. whatever) a sci fi take on biblical mythology with other notions tossed in for good measure, with Sanguinus playing the part of the angelic martyr, or even better, Baldr the Good. Just as Baldrs death and the unveiling of Loki's deceit opens Odin's eyes to what must be done in regards to Loki, Sanguinus' death is the vehicle used to open the Emperor's eyes as to what must be done with Horus. I agree. He is supposed to be perfect. @ Billuriye Yeah, I think you are right. He didn't have the blood lust, nor does he. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I don't think Sanguinius would have fallen. See, he had total control over the Red Thirst (which is why on Baal, he snapped when fighting the mutants to save his tribes, becoming extremely ferocious). His sons, however, inherited this, but did not inherit the control of it. At least, that's how I see it. I agree. Most likely he wouldn't have fallen, but the potential would have only gotten worse because he has a laundry list of things to despair/worry about, even more so than the surviving loyalist primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I don't think Sanguinius would have fallen. See, he had total control over the Red Thirst (which is why on Baal, he snapped when fighting the mutants to save his tribes, becoming extremely ferocious). His sons, however, inherited this, but did not inherit the control of it. At least, that's how I see it. I agree. Most likely he wouldn't have fallen, but the potential would have only gotten worse because he has a laundry list of things to despair/worry about, even more so than the surviving loyalist primarchs. That really makes me wonder what he would have been like had he survived. Would have been more depressed than Dorn? I don't think he would have nearly as much hope as he did before, but I wonder if he would have hidden that. Would he exile himself Corax? Would he have felt anything other than guilt for what had happened to the galaxy? Man... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 For me, it's hard to connect with someone who doesn't have any human flaw (like every other primarch :-), I don't know but vanilla just isn't my flavor...no offense... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 well, I dont think ANY primarch was completely immune to the touch of Chaos. if they were, they would be as boring as the Grey Knights. however, I do think certain primarch were, due to the nature of their upbringing were somewhat more resiliant to the allure of chaos. They were Sanguinius, Guilliman, Russ, Vulkan, Corax and Dorn. (I would include the Khan, but I am not sure of the recent HH books "added" any additional details of his youth.) what these all have in common is that they werent raised to power initially, but were rather members of their community first. They learned the dangers of power, of leadership, and so were better prepared to embrace it when their time to rule came. on topic, if i had to pick just 1 primarch, I would go with Angron due to his insistance of the Butcher's Nails being inducted into his Legion. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 For me, it's hard to connect with someone who doesn't have any human flaw (like every other primarch :-), I don't know but vanilla just isn't my flavor...no offence... To each his own, bro. I actually understand and empathize with your opinion. My buddy pokes fun at me all the time for liking such a paragon of pure manliness so I'm actually used to a bit of Sanguinius criticism (my friend is still wrong though). :) Now Curze, though, I think he was the biggest detriment to his legion based on principle. Talk about a guy who utterly loathed his sons and essentially screwed the Night Lords on purpose, unlike Fulgrim and Angron who were like "meh" and left Khârn to do Khârn things. Curze still gets the gold star of bad-arse-ry for NOT caring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is it really altering if 1.)there wasn't really anything to begin with and 2.)if the GW IP department(you know, the guys who created most of the stuff) approve it and 3.)it was different from the original material before BL ever got its hands on it? Yes, it is. "Really wasn't anything to begin with" can be seen as personal interpretation. The GW IP dept that currently exists had very little ( Merrett) to nothing to do with old fluff are just caretakers. But caretakers who interpret their job in a different way most caretakers of franchise fiction do. Hence why it's so difficult for us as fans to grasp the mercurial and contradictory nature of it. Back on topic though, still say Angron. All this talk about the lion however does make me want to read the newer Dark Angels stuff I must admit. Yeah it just seemed to me that it looked like BL was being bashed for all of the changes to the Heresy and I was going a roundabout way of pointing out that the changes had been happening before BL ever touched the Heresy, BL isn't the only one currently adding to and taking away from the Heresy and that everything BL is publishing about the Heresy is apparently getting approved by GW's IP Department. So I was just pointing out that it isn't exactly fair to put all of the blame on one specific entity when it should be put on everyone involved. Sort of like this topic. No one Primarch is solely responsible for everything that has happened to their Legions. Not even Angron. At any point in time, I'm sure the War Hounds could have went "Emperor, we can't handle him. He is killing everyone and we don't want him as a Primarch." I'm sure the Emperor being the loving father that he was would put him out of his misery at that point. But instead, they tried to reason with him. And part of the compromise was that they would agree to learn all of his practices and traditions, such as the Red Rope(I think that's what it was called) and accepting the Butcher's Nails. They agreed to it. It wasn't forced onto them. So even he is not solely to blame. None of the Primarchs truly are, although some carry more blame than others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 For me, it's hard to connect with someone who doesn't have any human flaw (like every other primarch :-), I don't know but vanilla just isn't my flavor...no offence... To each his own, bro. I actually understand and empathize with your opinion. My buddy pokes fun at me all the time for liking such a paragon of pure manliness so I'm actually used to a bit of Sanguinius criticism (my friend is still wrong though). :P Now Curze, though, I think he was the biggest detriment to his legion based on principle. Talk about a guy who utterly loathed his sons and essentially screwed the Night Lords on purpose, unlike Fulgrim and Angron who were like "meh" and left Khârn to do Khârn things. Curze still gets the gold star of bad-arse-ry for NOT caring. I' sorry but paragon of pure manliness = Russ pure goodness = Sang On topic: did somebody mention freaking Lorgar ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 On topic: did somebody mention freaking Lorgar ;) Lorgar is the fruit salad of 30k, but that's a different point. The Word Bearers at least retain some semblance of their hierarchy so I feel they are certainly better off than the Night Lords, World Eaters, or Emperor's Children. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267049-which-primarch-had-the-worse-impact-on-his-legion/page/8/#findComment-3259822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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