Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[DarthMarko]

But my point is pure pragmatic - when you get the wussiest "general", you aren't happy about it...like that WB dude from "Know no fear" is complaining about...

[Wade Garrett]

But my point is pure pragmatic - when you get the wussest "general", you aren't happy about it...like that WB dude from "Know no fear" is complaining about...

 

Lorgar wasn't the "wussiest" thought. After the Rebuke on Khur, it states that the Word Bearers had stepped up their game to the point that they could be considered up there with the Sons of Horus or the Ultramarines in terms of worlds conquered, which is even more impressive considering that they apparently started from way behind.

 

And I think the saner members of the VIII would have swapped Konrad for him....

 

"Lorgar and Angron spoke to me of purges, cleansing our ranks. The Twelfth and the Seventeenth..they knew exactly who to kill and when to stop. Purging the Eighth of the corrupt and traitorous? I wouldn't even know where to begin."

Konrad Curze, Prince of Crows

 

Although as stated it wasn't all his fault, considering that after a brief period of time every single new recruit to his legion was a murderer, beater, or murdering beater who would have made the recruits for the World Eaters look like paragons of mental health by comparison.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Lorgar had a bad impact on his Legion in the beginning but he eventually gave them purpose and look at them now. WBs are one of the few Chaos forces with a Primarch and massive numbers that are still somewhat cohesive and centralized in organization. Most of his Chaos brothers and Loyalist counterparts cant make that claim. He might not have been the best general but he is the Chosen Prophet of Chaos and instigator of the Heresy which is the most impacting event in the entire timeline.

 

Curze seemed to put up with the 'eccentricities' of his Marine Legion though. Lorgar with that lot would eventually lose his temper and go on a zealous purification run.

 

Lorgar: "The Chaos Gods are the greatest..."

Assembled NLs chuckle

Lorgar: FALCON PUUNNNNCCCCHHHHH!

[Veteran Sergeant]

Lorgar wasn't the "wussiest" thought. After the Rebuke on Khur, it states that the Word Bearers had stepped up their game to the point that they could be considered up there with the Sons of Horus or the Ultramarines in terms of worlds conquered, which is even more impressive considering that they apparently started from way behind.

Sort of.

 

It's not said that they ever caught up to the rest of the Legions. What they did was conquer more new ones at the end of the Crusade than anyone else. Basically, as everyone else was winding down, they went ape*poop* and started conquering the hell out of stuff.

 

WBs are one of the few Chaos forces with a Primarch

Do they really have a Primarch though? He's spent the last 10,000 years in a tower writing a book nobody will ever read, lol.

[Wade Garrett]

Do they really have a Primarch though? He's spent the last 10,000 years in a tower writing a book nobody will ever read, lol.

 

Still better than having the only thing your Primarch accomplished in ten thousand years being to have Khaldor Draigo use his heart as a sticky note!

:lol:

[Zynk Kaladin]

Still better than having the only thing your Primarch accomplished in ten thousand years being to have Khaldor Draigo use his heart as a sticky note!

:(

 

I read that as Khal Drogo from Game of Thrones and I was like "whaaaat". :lol:

 

Yea, all the daemon prince primarchs are pretty useless except Angron.

[MadDoc]

Still better than having the only thing your Primarch accomplished in ten thousand years being to have Khaldor Draigo use his heart as a sticky note!

:lol:

Thats easy to avoid when he spends ALL his time at home in his little tower writing to himself... "Dear diary..." :(

[Lepaca]

WBs are one of the few Chaos forces with a Primarch

Do they really have a Primarch though? He's spent the last 10,000 years in a tower writing a book nobody will ever read, lol.

 

1. Most of the Chaos Legions still have their Primarch in one form or the other.

 

2. Nobody really knows what exactly Lorgar has been doing but it has been implied in various sources that he does still maintain contact with the legion from time to time and tells them what to do.

[Brother-Kezek]

All of the Primarchs had a negative impact when they started making marines from their home worlds. Terrans were more likely to follow the Empperor and the others would follow the Primarch. It makes sense because they would have known the Primarch their whole live and The Emperor would be some dude that just came out of the sky.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Sure the other organizations have their Primarchs but they seem to be fractious warbands with no central authority. Lorgar up in his tower rules over his council of Apostles and seems to have control over a majority of his Legion. Lorgar lived and controlled his own miniature Eye of Terror before the revamped Peg Leg Pete the Pirate Marine for like the 3rd time (Huron) into a bigger warlord than Abbaddon (I really hate Huron's character from the ye olde days). Mort isnt exactly beloved of his own Legion or the main power over his Legion it seems. Fulgrim's lot are disparate seekers of sensation and do the warband thing. Magnus seems to have a central authority over parts of his Legion; pretty easy when they are walking constructs, exiling his right hand man and his cronies. Angron's group can get organized once in a while but they are usually split apart hacking stuff up in the name of the Skull Throne. Curzes group are split into factions and warbands with no Primarch. Abby's boys are organized but no Primarch. Alpharius/Omegon might have control over their Legion but even now during the Heresy series it seems like the group is splitting apart at the seams and if they are supposed to be secret champions of justice or something they sure have alot of Daemon Princes, warbands and mutant troopers in the 40k timeline. So that pretty much leaves the Iron Warriors (who seem well organized) and the Word Bearers, who still seem to have a cohesive central authority and dont often fall to infighting/factionalism as often as the other Legions who have Primarchs.

[Epistolary Exander]

The reasons the Primarch’s had such an effect on their legions is because of the lack of oversight of the legions allowed the Primarchs and their legions to get away with so much.

 

The Emperor didn’t treat the Primarchs and their marines as people with souls and feelings etc and instead of taking his time with their welfare he had them focus too much on the killy goodness. This seems woefully ignorant and idiotic of the Emperor considering he spent thousands of years planning the Great Crusade; why rush with it? He could have let the Great Crusade take 300 years instead of 200 and use the extra time to ensure everything was fine within the Legion Astartes, that 100 years is insignificant to the thousands of years the Emperor had been secretly protecting humanity.

 

What the legions and their Primarchs really needed was someone there to confide in and help them with them and their legion’s issues, which if it was not actually the Emperor then it should have been one of the Primarchs with Malcador’s help when necessary. Admittedly this would have been pretty much a full time job travelling between the legions basically being everyone’s best friend. It would have taken someone like Horus, Sanguinius and Lorgar (if he had been given this task with Malcador’s guiding hand). Most of the issues the Primarchs would have had would have been resolved if the Emperor had allowed time and resources to be given to resolving them, some of them were pretty simple. Like for Angron instead of abducting him, you beam down on the eve of the battle and introduce yourself and allow you and your legions to conquer Deshea in the morning after tea & crumpets. Some of them like and Sanguinius and Magnus it would have taken time in the geneseed labs creating new geneseed for their respective legions etc. Its not rocket science :eek.

 

One of key issues the Primarchs have in the current 30k setting is the fear of the Emperor killing them and their legions off, to become the 3rd empty plinth. A lot of that fear would not have been present if something like the above mechanism was used. In a lot of respects the fear was misplaced the lack of oversight of the legions meant the Emperor didn’t notice Lorgar’s and the 17ths fall to chaos. On top that of that the Emperor knew of the problems with the WE, NL and possibly the DA for decades but didn’t do anything about it, he only acted on the TS because of the sheer amount of public pressure on him to do so. So the oversight was in place before the heresy was not even being used efficiently/ appropriately.

 

A lot the problems found in the legions and their Primach were exacerbated by the Emperor allowing the Imperium’s focus on being overwhelmingly in favour frenzied expansion, instead of taking time to ensure all is right with his troops aswel as steady expansion.

[Emperor's Furor]

To be fair, out of all the Legions "left" the Word Bearers have the best organised imo, they are still fundamentally together. I think this shows while what Lorgar lacked in tactical and martial prowess he more than made up for in character, thought, dedication and openess to his legion. This potentially had the down side of allowing Erebus and Kor Phaeron to slowly turn him away from the Emperor, but coming out of the Heresy they were left in the best state.

 

Despite being the manufacturer of it, the Word Bearers eclipsed all the rest of the traitor legions and in fact passed off the failure to the Sons of Horus/Black Legion (which is what ADB wants to write about, about how everyone turned on them.)

 

 

I've read the books and important passages that explain why Lorgar turned and I have to say, Chaos made a convincing argument.

 

The Imperial Truth was a fundamental lie, there are gods but not gods in the conventional sense. They ain't nice gods but they are gods, you can either live to serve them and gain immortality for ever and have your every wish come true, you can fashion the perfect world if you like and have it last forever or you can live in the mortal sense of a small amount of time where you can't control anything, you're condemned to serve someone who doesn't really care about you and who doesn't allow your dreams to come true and then you die and become food for those in the after life.

 

When you remove the lie that in normal life you can achieve everything and anything by serving a powerful being and replace it with the truth that if you dedicate yourself to these other beings you can do anything you want including elevating humanity to a greater state then it's very enticing.

[DarthMarko]

Disagree with @WoT...

c-gods = powerful entities made of emotions, aliens, abominations

They can be killed (just imagine IoM full of love),and they aren't omnipotent...

so imperial truth wasn't a complete lie, IMHO

[Billuriye]

The Imperial Truth was a fundamental lie, there are gods but not gods in the conventional sense. They ain't nice gods but they are gods, you can either live to serve them and gain immortality for ever and have your every wish come true, you can fashion the perfect world if you like and have it last forever or you can live in the mortal sense of a small amount of time where you can't control anything, you're condemned to serve someone who doesn't really care about you and who doesn't allow your dreams to come true and then you die and become food for those in the after life.

 

When you remove the lie that in normal life you can achieve everything and anything by serving a powerful being and replace it with the truth that if you dedicate yourself to these other beings you can do anything you want including elevating humanity to a greater state then it's very enticing.

 

Imperial Truth wasn't a total lie. If Emperor succeded, it would have become reality. Emperor, who saw the Gods for what they really were, knew Chaos only cares for expanding his realm and destroy the materium. Lorgar had noble and selfless intentions yet he only saw what Chaos showed him. He believed that humanity and Chaos can ascend together which was a lie. Humanity is nothing but a fuel source to devour for them. Look what happened to Eldar for example. He regarded Argel Tal as an example of human-chaos coordination yet in the end there wasn't much of Argel Tal left, only Raum. (I'm not so sure of this though, Mr Bowden may shot this theory down if he cares.)

[Emperor's Furor]

I know how the gods are made and how they draw power but to me the only way they could be extinguished is if every race that registers in the warp is destroyed outright.

 

Even if they didn't believe in gods and the Imperial Truth succeeded in dominating the Imperium, the gods would still exist because unless you turn people into emotionless bags of meat like in Equilibrium they will still feel anger, love, pleasure and you'd have to wipe out disease and change in the galaxy as well, which is nigh on impossible.

 

I think it could of been possible that in the end humans could become half human half daemon, be stronger than anything in the universe, absolutely destroy anyone who attacked them like tyranids etc and humanity would last forever, where as in the current timeline humanity is slowing dying out. Humanity would worship the gods and the gods would have no need to destroy humanity because through humanity they'd have a direct step into real space through them and would need to share the bodies to survive in real space.

 

Who knows if this occured, maybe the Imperium could of defeated chaos from within, not saying it would of but we don't know what could of happened if the Heresy succeeded, apart from the cabals visions which are suspect.

[Kol Saresk]

Disagree with @WoT...

c-gods = powerful entities made of emotions, aliens, abominations

They can be killed (just imagine IoM full of love),and they aren't omnipotent...

so imperial truth wasn't a complete lie, IMHO

If your definition of a god is a being who is omnipotent, then you have the wrong set of expectations. Going through our history, rare is the god who is omnipotent. That's why most religions are polytheistic. If one god could do everything then there wouldn't be a need for others. Zues, Jupiter, Ra, Marduk and others, none have been "all-powerful."

 

Now, there is also the question of how do you define "omnipotent?" How do you define "all-powerful?" What does something need to be able to do in order to be "omnipotent?" Break the laws of the natural universe? Even daemons can do that and they draw their power from their respective gods. Raise someone from the dead? I believe there is enough fluff for each god doing that, although you have to look to find the examples for Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. Is it the ability to make something mortal, immortal? Yeah the gods have definitely done that. So, what is omnipotent? What laws of nature(the laws that are technologically impossible to break) have to be broken before a being is omnipotent?

 

Of course, I find it ironic that if the Emperor had succeeded in his apotheosis and become a god, he would have gotten rid of the rest of the gods. Which would have left himself. Which still would have meant the Imperial Truth was a lie.

 

On the note of Argel Tal, there is still quite a bit of Argel Tal. In TFH, it ended with Argel Tal still being in control and Raum being a voice in his head. In Butcher's Nails, not much has changed, just Raum is able to talk alongside Argel Tal. So there is quite a bit left.

 

Also, how did we go from Primarchs to the Chaos gods?

[Emperor's Furor]

I dunno, I think I was talking about Lorgar and his strengths and I kind of thought I'd defend his choice to go with the gods.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Lorgar's only real excuse is that he didn't know any better. He was suckered by Chaos because he took them at face value. This was in a large part the Emperor's fault for not properly telling the Primarchs about Chaos. The more vulnerable Primarchs like Lorgar (need for validation), Horus (pride), Fulgrim (vanity), etc, were easy targets, made easier by the fact that they didn't know to be on their guard.

 

All of this talk about Chaos being some kind of "truth" is ridiculous. The Ruinous powers lied to all of the Primarchs, and where they didn't lie, they simply misrepresented the truth in order to manipulate them. Misrepresenting the truth is lying, lol. You can't apply the Obi Wan Kenobi defense (What I told you was true, from a certain point of view). The Emperor also lied by leaving out much of the truth too. The Emperor was just as ruthless as the Chaos Gods, but, on the other hand, his goals didn't involve consuming the universe into some kind of nightmare land.

 

you're condemned to serve someone who doesn't really care about you and who doesn't allow your dreams to come true and then you die and become food for those in the after life.

That's utter nonsense. The Emperor cared about Lorgar. He just didn't approve of his methods and punished him for straying from his mission and duty. "Doesn't allow your dreams to come true?" What kind of ridiculousness is that? Lorgar's responses were largely temper tantrums derived from not being validated. He built cathedrals and shrines and raised up the Emperor as a God because he felt that was the only way he could positively contribute to the Emprah, because he was overshadowed by all of his brothers in martial aspects. Really, the Emperor's fault was not recognizing that Lorgar was looking for that validation, and craved it. I think he believed, perhaps arrogantly, that all of his sons were strong enough to recognize their true purpose, and apply themselves to it. Lorgar was not. It's possible that because it seems like the Emperor spent most of the Crusade with Dorn, Horus, Sanguinius, etc, he took their behavior and attributes as to be the most common. He may have assumed Lorgar would be as strong as them, and that he had simply been lax in overseeing Lorgar's progress. I mean, nobody will accuse the Emperor of being a good dad, lol. He probably assumed Lorgar would get over it and actually do what he was supposed to.

 

Honestly, I have to fault the way that the destruction of Monarchia was written out in the book. I think it was overly melodramatic. Whether that was ADB's personal choice, or how TBL decided to map it out, I don't know. It's only of the writing flubs from the Heresy novels that I don't like at all. Basically, the Emperor did everything wrong that he possibly could have done wrong. Smashed Lorgar's precious temples, then rebuked him in front of his legion, and forced him to be humiliated in front of his brother. And not just any brother, but one of the brothers Lorgar would have most looked up to/at when he was seeing the example he was failing to live up to. Surely there was a better way to handle that, lol.

 

But, sadly, that's the fluff we're stuck with. I mean, it doesn't change much about Lorgar (he could/would have still been all butthurt and emo about the Emprah not liking his churches and been swayed in by Chaos). But the poor writing of that segment almost makes it an inevitability that he'd be turned. I guess I'd have liked to see Lorgar's seduction by Chaos be a true falling. True cleverness on the part of the Ruinous Powers. Because of how that scene was written, it was basically a cake walk for them to trick Lorgar and turn him against humanity.

[Billuriye]

On the note of Argel Tal, there is still quite a bit of Argel Tal. In TFH, it ended with Argel Tal still being in control and Raum being a voice in his head. In Butcher's Nails, not much has changed, just Raum is able to talk alongside Argel Tal. So there is quite a bit left.

 

Also, how did we go from Primarchs to the Chaos gods?

 

Aurelian spoilers

At the Eternity Gate, Raum is huge, winged daemon. He adorns his horns with slain Imperial Fists. Argel Tal exists only as a soul inside daemonic stuff.

 

[Emperor's Furor]

Lorgar's only real excuse is that he didn't know any better. He was suckered by Chaos because he took them at face value. This was in a large part the Emperor's fault for not properly telling the Primarchs about Chaos. The more vulnerable Primarchs like Lorgar (need for validation), Horus (pride), Fulgrim (vanity), etc, were easy targets, made easier by the fact that they didn't know to be on their guard.

 

All of this talk about Chaos being some kind of "truth" is ridiculous. The Ruinous powers lied to all of the Primarchs, and where they didn't lie, they simply misrepresented the truth in order to manipulate them. Misrepresenting the truth is lying, lol. You can't apply the Obi Wan Kenobi defense (What I told you was true, from a certain point of view). The Emperor also lied by leaving out much of the truth too. The Emperor was just as ruthless as the Chaos Gods, but, on the other hand, his goals didn't involve consuming the universe into some kind of nightmare land.

 

you're condemned to serve someone who doesn't really care about you and who doesn't allow your dreams to come true and then you die and become food for those in the after life.

That's utter nonsense. The Emperor cared about Lorgar. He just didn't approve of his methods and punished him for straying from his mission and duty. "Doesn't allow your dreams to come true?" What kind of ridiculousness is that? Lorgar's responses were largely temper tantrums derived from not being validated. He built cathedrals and shrines and raised up the Emperor as a God because he felt that was the only way he could positively contribute to the Emprah, because he was overshadowed by all of his brothers in martial aspects. Really, the Emperor's fault was not recognizing that Lorgar was looking for that validation, and craved it. I think he believed, perhaps arrogantly, that all of his sons were strong enough to recognize their true purpose, and apply themselves to it. Lorgar was not. It's possible that because it seems like the Emperor spent most of the Crusade with Dorn, Horus, Sanguinius, etc, he took their behavior and attributes as to be the most common. He may have assumed Lorgar would be as strong as them, and that he had simply been lax in overseeing Lorgar's progress. I mean, nobody will accuse the Emperor of being a good dad, lol. He probably assumed Lorgar would get over it and actually do what he was supposed to.

 

Honestly, I have to fault the way that the destruction of Monarchia was written out in the book. I think it was overly melodramatic. Whether that was ADB's personal choice, or how TBL decided to map it out, I don't know. It's only of the writing flubs from the Heresy novels that I don't like at all. Basically, the Emperor did everything wrong that he possibly could have done wrong. Smashed Lorgar's precious temples, then rebuked him in front of his legion, and forced him to be humiliated in front of his brother. And not just any brother, but one of the brothers Lorgar would have most looked up to/at when he was seeing the example he was failing to live up to. Surely there was a better way to handle that, lol.

 

But, sadly, that's the fluff we're stuck with. I mean, it doesn't change much about Lorgar (he could/would have still been all butthurt and emo about the Emprah not liking his churches and been swayed in by Chaos). But the poor writing of that segment almost makes it an inevitability that he'd be turned. I guess I'd have liked to see Lorgar's seduction by Chaos be a true falling. True cleverness on the part of the Ruinous Powers. Because of how that scene was written, it was basically a cake walk for them to trick Lorgar and turn him against humanity.

 

I disagree, when you don't worry about death you don't have to worry about a lot that mortals worry about. When I talked about Dreams, I'm not just talking about Lorgar, but the other Primarchs as well. Perturabo wanted to craft beautiful architecture, Horus wanted a solid military governed Imperium, not a bureaucratic one, other Primarchs aspired to other things but it wasn't within the power for the Emperor to do it, not only that he damn right denied them doing the things that could be achieved.

 

What did Chaos misrepresent? That they could make you immortal? they you could create things at a whim? that you could do what ever you wanted? that chaos made you stronger? I'd argue all those are within the power of chaos to give, where as the Emperor's Imperial Truth is a fundamental lie, if there was no chaos gods then yeah maybe the secular truth would be accepted, the problem is in warhammer there are chaos gods, religions do have an evident see-able basis. IF anything is misrepresented and a lie the Imperial Truth is.

 

Now that doesn't mean everyone should give into it, some people would rather have the blue pill and some would rather have the red pill, however the blue pill is a lie and the red pill is the truth, and it's pretty clear which pill represents either of these two ideologies.

[Vesper]

Disagree with @WoT...

c-gods = powerful entities made of emotions, aliens, abominations

They can be killed (just imagine IoM full of love),and they aren't omnipotent...

so imperial truth wasn't a complete lie, IMHO

 

They can't be killed. If humanity was full of love, the Chaos gods would be different, not gone. Because they are the reflection of humanity. You would have to wipe humanity and everything that lives and feels, just to put them in a dormant state. That's the whole thing about Chaos.

In fact, we don't know about the reach of their powers. Khorne made a SM chapter all crazy-khornate in an instant just because he wished, for example, and Tzeentch did pretty much the same with the Scourged. Maybe they don't annihilate everything in the imperium just because its actual state is feeding them quite decently.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I disagree, when you don't worry about death you don't have to worry about a lot that mortals worry about. When I talked about Dreams, I'm not just talking about Lorgar, but the other Primarchs as well. Perturabo wanted to craft beautiful architecture, Horus wanted a solid military governed Imperium, not a bureaucratic one, other Primarchs aspired to other things but it wasn't within the power for the Emperor to do it, not only that he damn right denied them doing the things that could be achieved.

This is a pretty narrow way to look at it. That the Emperor was crushing the dreams of his sons? These were demigods, born and bred for war. The funny part is, all they had to do was Crusade for a while, and then they could have done whatever they felt like. Guilliman was smart enough to recognize that, and had been transitioning his Legion for the rule of the galaxy, as opposed to the conquest of it. Who would have stopped Perturabo from building big buildings after the Crusade? And the Emperor gave Horus his military. The whole thing. Not even accidentally the whole thing. You're now suddenly justifying the temper tantrums of beings whose very existence was given to them by the Emperor, because they had to do what they were told first? Now we're giving into some sense of entitlement for the Primarchs too? I mean, don't get me wrong, being a Primarch/Space Marine sucks. I always laugh when somebody calls Marines "wish fulfillment fantasy", because none of my wishes have ever been to be a joyless, celibate war machine whose existence is brutal death, or centuries of unending training and combat.

 

Like I said, the Primarchs were left vulnerable because the Emperor hadn't chosen to protect them from the lurings of Chaos. They had everything. They just didn't know it. Chaos seduced them by tricking them into believing there was more to offer. But they were already functionally immortal. They were incredibly powerful, both physically and politically. And they more or less got away with murder (literally, in the case of guys like Angron and Curze). What did Chaos actually give these guys? Nothing they didn't already have, and the price they paid was ridiculous. Lorgar is a nutcase who's locked himself in a tower for 10,000 years refusing to be bothered while he meditates and writes his book nobody will read. Angron is a big angry demon who murders things every chance he gets when he isn't put in time out by the Grey Knights. Nobody is really sure what Mortarion does these days when he isn't getting tattoos.

 

What did Chaos misrepresent? That they could make you immortal? they you could create things at a whim? that you could do what ever you wanted? that chaos made you stronger? I'd argue all those are within the power of chaos to give, where as the Emperor's Imperial Truth is a fundamental lie, if there was no chaos gods then yeah maybe the secular truth would be accepted, the problem is in warhammer there are chaos gods, religions do have an evident see-able basis. IF anything is misrepresented and a lie the Imperial Truth is.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe what the cost of those things was, perhaps? :D Nothing about Chaos is given. You trade something for it.

 

I mean, you're talking about is the difference between a lie that bad gods didn't exist, versus some "truth" that you can become immortal and ultra-powerful and get everything you want, at the cost of, you know, trivial stuff like the fate of humanity, or your soul, and serving evil gods bent on destroying everything.

 

Okay, so yeah, the Imperial Truth is a lie, lol. And?

 

There is no red/blue pill situation here. They are both blue pills. Just one blue pill doesn't end the universe, steal your soul, and lead to the murder of billions of your own species.

[Wade Garrett]

And yet even if you cleave to the Imperial Truth..when you die, you're still meat for the neverborn. Embrace Chaos, and in death, become the predator, not the prey!

 

As for "The Primarchs should have done whatever the Emperor wanted because he made them"? Just because you fathered sons doesn't give you the right to enslave them. Lorgar wanted to be a priest, not a general. Curze was far more comfortable as a judge and vigilante than as a warlord. Angron would rather have died with his men. What gave the Emperor the right to force them to walk his path?

[Emperor's Furor]

That's what I was trying to get at, The Emperor demanded they do as he said because he created them, he played god and then demanded they do as he told, and he wasn't even a true god, so when the chaos gods said hey you can do what ever you want and you'll be immortal, then it's no wonder some went with them, heck Primarchs are partly made out of chaos as well, so the Emperor didn't even create them by himself.

[Kol Saresk]

Everything has a cost. Even life in the Imperium. Nothing is or has been free. It all has the same price. Chaos just gives you more for it if you can reach out and grab.

 

Billuriye: I remember Aurelian saying something a little bit different. My copy is home so I'll look at it after school.