How am I supposed to beat GK?...

[brindley]

I'm not saying that I will ever refuse to play a GK player, although I do honestly think the codex has things that seem to be stupidly broken in parts. I haven't read through myself but one example is a guy in my gaming group using dreadknights. He has the magic sword which stacks with the power Fist or something automatically, so he has the gun as well, and 4 attacks without the charge, rerolling hits and wounds at S10. How the hell am I supposed to stop that...He said they couldnt do that before but it got FAQ'd and I am pissed if that's true because the last thing GK needed was a buff, while trying to complain as little as possible here :S

 

The general core of his list is Coteaz and a henchman squad with stormbolters, along with 3-4 big units of psykers with the s8 ap 1 large blasts, with all of the psykers in rhinos. He basically just sits the rhinos in the back objective areas and bombs me all game while the power units in his army roll through stuff, both times i've played him it's been close, but is there some strategy to try and stop that?

 

I honestly can hardly see the weakness in GK, assuming no "elite" army excuse because they can often even outnumber me. I'm worried about all the armies I may see in the big tournament areas. Is the best way to counter the psyker rhino brigade at the back going straight at them?

 

PLEASE tell me dreadknights aren't as broken as they appear to be...As it is they are faster than me, so WILL have the charge after shooting, and can challenge so kill of my champion one turn then maul the squad over the next turn with me not being able to do anything about it. And these are normally squads designed to kill tanks...

[Crynn]

Dreadknights really aren't that broken, a few plasma shots takes them down really fast. And the unit you are describing is 260points so they aren't cheap. Those psyker blasts are most likely str 10, if they are not then I think you are getting it easy as it is only 20 points more to have them at str 10. His list so far also has no flyer defence at all so any flyer based list would destroy him. You ahve some great units in the chaos dex so perhaps you aren't using them.

 

The hell drake will by nigh unkillable by his list and is a great unit with a bale flamer. Once you destroy a rhino it will ahve no problems killing all the occupants. Nurgle Oblitorators are an excellent unit and with lascannons and twin linked plasma guns they should ahve no problem killing dread knights. You will get 3 nurgle oblits for less than one knight. I'd be looking to take around 6 of them in games of 1750 plus points.

 

A level 3 chaos sorceror is also an excellent unit and can have an ability to re-roll any failed psychic test. he only clocks in around 125 points. A khorne lord on a juggernaught with the ap2 axe demon weapon should also kill a dreadknight in combat. it is fast and does a lot of damage. You can put it with some spawn for a body guard or nurgle bikes which are also decent.

 

I think the addition of nurgle oblits and hell drakes will very likely help you out a lot here and they are good units against all armies. I hope that helps mate.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[brindley]

Yea that does help, I can't use hell drakes unfortunately for the fact that they cost a stupid amount of money haha. The last game we played his list had coteaz with a unit of elite grey knights in a LR redeemer, and his henchmen with another nearby unit of 3 henchmen were manning a quadgun. He's used aegis both games and the tanks generally go behind it. I think he probably uses the slightly smaller psyker units because they can generally kill of whatever infantry there is and most of his army goes into the dreadknights and whatever greyknight units he uses.

 

The list i'm planning on using for tournament scenes is a tally list army, so it's all units that can take mark of nurgle. I could add more obliterators or a sorcerer as they could be useful against anything as you said, i'd probably have to lose one of my troop plague marine units though.

 

I'm jealous of dreadknights, the closest chaos has is the decimator and contemptor, and in straight up comparison they make me sad haha.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Grey Knights are the bane of my existence, and Abaddon is the only friend I've been able to turn to. Not even Grey Knights are immune to Abaddon. Give him a retinue of Terminators with MoT and power fists and hold them in deepstrike reserve. They will urinate on the hopes and dreams of whatever they manage to land next to.

 

Heldrakes with Baleflamers are worth every point. Scratch-build yourself a couple if you have to.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mass Cultists.

 

Helldrakes and Bale Flamers.

 

Triple Ectoplasma ForgeFiends.

 

Daemon Princes with Axe/Mace.

 

Take your pick. And that's not even mentioning your new Psychic Powers.

[thor1234]

well as a Grey Knight who had played many a Chaos army recently id have to go with what gentlemanloser has said, though less cultists..... even a blob of 30 with burst when struck by S5 stormbolters...... take a forgefiend with triple ectoplasma cannons and 2 squads of obliterators and drop as many S7 Ap2 Blasts as you can on themand they will go down so fast you wont believe it!

[greatcrusade08]

can NDKs challenge? i didnt think they could.

 

i think the chaps have it right, personally i like the armour saturation chaos can put out now, id not run oblits personally and have two forgefiends and a third with ectoplasma.. the two regulars love opening rhinos.

once the tin openers have done thier jobs helldrakes and plasma cannons can do the rest

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, NDKs are Characters. :P

 

They're awesome, but the new Daemon Princes are just a shade better.

 

Honestly, the OP should look at Chaos Daemon Princes before worrying about GK NDKs...

 

even a blob of 30 with burst when struck by S5 stormbolters......

 

Yeah. They're only there to let your CC monster of choice get into CC. Cheap ablative wounds FTW.

[DK1]

Just my 2 cents as a GK player.

 

to have a Chaos competitive list your plan should be to play defensive, set up traps and hunt down stranglers. As for the NDK he is a beast but is expansive, you can field a Land Raider for the average built NDK in points, and the Lascannons would rip him apart. Just have to make it a point not to let the Gk player work his plan out vs you. I play super aggressive by shooting and assaulting while owning the table, like any army this is only one style however GK have one major weakness regardless of what kind of list ran. That is GK have to pick between having alot of toys, or having troops to cover OBJs. As said before cultist and plasma are your best friend, tarpit and control the table.

 

I am a firm believer Term vs Term is never a good strategy, you want your Terms to take out alot of weaker units and not fight out with another term unit for half the game. So to use Abbadon and his term unit the plan for him needs to be scoring unit hunting, take on the biggest OBJ and crush every troop or Grand Strat picked scoring unit.

 

In all, and as bland as it is to say this, what ever your enemy moves toward in the first two turns is what needs to be tar pitted and crushed.

 

DK

[Loher]

NDK are sadly broken compared to a DP. 185 will give you a MC in terminator armor, 4x WS 5 S10 reroll to hit, armor pen and wound cc attacks, and torrent s4 ap4 flamer.

Plus NMK is a character and can challenges, is a psyker with a couple of powers and has R6, virtually being killed only by ID. You can buy it a jump pack to make a useful shunt move of 30' and movemont of 12' or DS. Oh without mention 4 wounds...

Our DP sucks for the same price. Having said that, it seems like lascannons are becoming useful each day passing, even more than plasma. Chaos have acces to chep triple lascannon predators, a couple of them plus a unit of 3xObliterators would dispose of the NDK without losing the overall army flexibility I think.

[DK1]

NDK are sadly broken compared to a DP. 185 will give you a MC in terminator armor, 4x WS 5 S10 reroll to hit, armor pen and wound cc attacks, and torrent s4 ap4 flamer.

Plus NMK is a character and can challenges, is a psyker with a couple of powers and has R6, virtually being killed only by ID. You can buy it a jump pack to make a useful shunt move of 30' and movemont of 12' or DS. Oh without mention 4 wounds...

Our DP sucks for the same price. Having said that, it seems like lascannons are becoming useful each day passing, even more than plasma. Chaos have acces to chep triple lascannon predators, a couple of them plus a unit of 3xObliterators would dispose of the NDK without losing the overall army flexibility I think.

 

 

Wait for 185pts with the sword and Heavy Incinerator your NDK can only move 6" a turn and is limited to a 19" range on the flame temps max range, without the teleporter you just about have to DS him to get him anywhere. As for the DP for 210pts you can have wings, mark of tzeentch with master of sorcery and bolt of Tzeentch. A GK player would need a StormRaven to be able to lay down that kinda fire while flying around the table.

 

The NDK isnt broken, everyone just hates it.

 

DK

[Gentlemanloser]

That.

 

Then you add an Axe or Mace to the DP (and just look at it's stats. I8, or is it 9? How many attacks with a Daemon Weapon?), and Blam.

 

One Dead NDK.

 

As for the copuple of powers the NDK had, they suck. Both of them. Hammerhand is useless. It literally has not a single use int he game any more for a NDK. And how many Daemonic Gifts are there for Dark Excommunication to get rid of?

 

I can't find a single one in the Chaos Space Marine codex. The Daemon Prince doesn't have any...

[Loher]

And at 210 points you can stay in air forever and wait for any weapon to just hit and bring your DP down and being assaulted... or you can stay in the air forever and shoot with nothing. Really, the DP sucks hard compared to NDK though I would like to play a couple without wings and MoS.

Surely the teleporter will make the NDK points go up to 260, but then it will not be limited to 19" movement, but just a rich shunt first turn move of 30" and a 12" movement/phase subsequently.

Without mentioning that you are forced to stay out first turn... Yeah for sure DP>NDK.

[Gentlemanloser]

How on earth does it suck?

 

When I get home I'll point up a DP that will eat an NDK (and most other things) alive.

[Loher]

@Gentleman: if you can't think in term of point/efficiency, i can assure you I will not come back and read your answers, as usual.

It is true that its psy-powers sucks, but better than nothing... especially today that demons are buffed. It is a small addition, but at least a NDK will not die from a railgun. and just for the record a DP with Black mace+3+armor+wings+MoT comes for 290 points at least and eat your HQ choices.

[Brother Ambroz]

You guys are discussing two different Daemon princes from two different codex books. One persons talking about Codex Daemons, which is still pretty boss, then the other Codex:CSM prince which is also good but very very expensive. When you total up a CSM prince with the axe or mace it comes to 300+ points. If you decide to give him any psychic powers then you're looking at 350+. They probably will eat a NDK alive usually but they're alot cheaper, I think that's what he's trying to say.

[DK1]

see i would never send my NDK after a DP, its to even of a fight. Im going to go after troops and tanks. Best way to get a NDK killed other then lascannons is TH/SS terms. This topic is just about the compairison of the two as if head to head, when i would avoid HtH and send my GK Terms after the DP.

 

DK

[Gentlemanloser]

The optimal loadout for a NDK is;

 

H incinerator, Greatsword, Personal Teleporter.

 

This costs 260 points and gives you a Jump Monstrous Creature with;

 

WS5, BS4, S6/10, T6, W4, I4, A3/4, Ld10, Save: 2+/5++. Special Rules: Aegis, ATSKNF, PE: Daemons, PML1.

 

 

For 255 points you get a Flying Monstours Creature with;

 

WS9/8, BS5/4, S6/8, T5, W4, I8, A5+1d6, Ld9, Save: 3+/5++ Special rules: Fearless, Hatred: Any unit from any Space Marine codex, Rage, Furious Charge

 

Now, I'm unsure whether the DP can use the Axe, as they technically don't have a mark of Khorne. in which case swap out to a DP of T with the Black mace or murder sword.

 

You can also add in a Boon of Mutation, if you don't mind a random roll.

 

Sucks hard versus an NDK? No. I don't know why anyone would claim that.

 

just for the record a DP with Black mace+3+armor+wings+MoT comes for 290 points

 

I make it 265 (You don't have to puchase PML1 if you're a DP of T).

 

Without mentioning that you are forced to stay out first turn...

 

FMC that start on board start in glide mode. You're not forced to reserve and come on flying.

 

Plus NMK is a character and can challenges

 

DPs are also characters...

[Jacinda]

Whatever happened to mobility, ambushes, focus fire and using terrain and screens to isolate sections of the enemy while exposing a minimal amount of your own army?

[spartan249]

GKs have chaos beat on mobility, ambushes don't happen in 40k as there is no fog of war, GKs can focus fire, just like anyone else (god help you if you're trying to compete at mid-range), and GKs have a much easier time achieving local superiority thanks to superior mobility and generally lower model count.

 

Since Chaos have the numerical advantage (however slight), forcing a straight up fight is the most feasible option as GKs aren't an army designed for battles of attrition.

[Jacinda]

GKs have chaos beat on mobility, ambushes don't happen in 40k as there is no fog of war, GKs can focus fire, just like anyone else (god help you if you're trying to compete at mid-range), and GKs have a much easier time achieving local superiority thanks to superior mobility and generally lower model count.

 

*Jacinda smiles and blinks innocently*

[brindley]

Hey guys i'm back haha sorry I took so long. I'm shocked by the amount of interest between the two options! I myself have my DP built for nurgle with wings and either burning brand or mace I guess. Although I think its COMPLETELY STUPID how they absolutely ruined marks for daemons. Why the hell do I pay 15 points on an already overpriced model for shrouded and slow and purposeful. That is almost a nerf as it is a buff that i'm buying. Not only that the chance of instantly dying from either force weapons or s10 is far understated. If they made DP's T6 like they should be then I wouldn't hate them. And why on earth do you have to buy power armour with them, aren't they supposed to be chaos lords! The NDK might also just have me jealous though because we don't have an option for something like that, with the chaos contemptors and decimator being overpriced.

 

The idea for s7 ap 2 spam sounds like a great counter, but unfortunately I don't think i'll be able to afford fiends or the heldrake until christmas anyway at least. I think i'll have a lot better of a time the next time I play against my friend because I'll be using a tally list for the first time, and while GK are hard to get +20 vs, ill focus on his psykers and take off as many as early as possible. I previously tended to try and do an alpha strike against him with rapid firing units hoping I could pop his NDK's and land raider. I think this time I'll be more patient and make sure that I can definitely kill his units before putting myself too far out. If those DK's get the charge on me i'm doomed.

 

And like everyone said, Daemon princes are far too overpriced, i'd use one but I cant see myself justifying a 300ish point unit that is T5, with a 5++ save and 4 wounds, possibly with a 3+ save. Yes it is flying and could try to avoid fire but it's relatively hard to hide, generally something will be able to shoot at it. Oh how much I would give for the old daemon prince that was half the price and could take useful marks. I'm sure most chaos players feel my pain ;)

 

I've always wanted grey knights though because they are such a cool and interesting range.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

...I haven't read through myself...

 

Might wanna try doing that first. Oh, and reading our FAQ too.

 

The general core of his list is Coteaz and a henchman squad with stormbolters, along with 3-4 big units of psykers with the s8 ap 1 large blasts, with all of the psykers in rhinos. He basically just sits the rhinos in the back objective areas and bombs me all game while the power units in his army roll through stuff, both times i've played him it's been close, but is there some strategy to try and stop that?

 

Gee, I dunno, maybe with:

 

- Havoks

- Obliterators

- Forgefiends

- Raptors

- Chosen

- Bikers

- Terminators

- Chaos Marines

- Plague Marines

 

I honestly can hardly see the weakness in GK, assuming no "elite" army excuse because they can often even outnumber me. I'm worried about all the armies I may see in the big tournament areas. Is the best way to counter the psyker rhino brigade at the back going straight at them?

 

You do know you have Cultists, right? And Allies like Orks, or even IG? If you want you can outnumber Knight and even Henchmen armies twice over. Not that you have to (1/3rd more, with a strong MeQ core, should do the trick), but it is possible. We're definitely not a horde army.

 

PLEASE tell me dreadknights aren't as broken as they appear to be...As it is they are faster than me, so WILL have the charge after shooting, and can challenge so kill of my champion one turn then maul the squad over the next turn with me not being able to do anything about it. And these are normally squads designed to kill tanks...

 

Okay, they're not broken. Man, come on, Chaos have on the easiest times against DK's. Again;

 

- Havok lascannons end them

- Obliterators pump out twin-linked plasma

- Chosen with quad plasma gun end it

- Blind Axe Lord is faster and will eat it pretty reliably

- Prince laughs at DK's, although he's pretty expensive himself so bit of a trade

 

Yea that does help, I can't use hell drakes unfortunately for the fact that they cost a stupid amount of money haha.

 

eBay?

 

The list i'm planning on using for tournament scenes is a tally list army, so it's all units that can take mark of nurgle. I could add more obliterators or a sorcerer as they could be useful against anything as you said, i'd probably have to lose one of my troop plague marine units though.

 

Why? Plague Marines are a great choice against Knights, they bring double plasma at 5-man and they're tough to get rid of. Also, they benefit from Tally, which is the point of the list.

 

I think you'll do fine with a Tally list. Nurgle Obliterators with Tally is just insane, they can't be gibbed by PsyDreads and with fully Tally up all their ranged attacks become AP2 (AP2 assault cannons, oh baby) and they get 3+ FNP (which on 2+ armour multi-wound models is pretty boss).

 

I'm not jealous of dreadknights, the closest chaos has is the prince, and in straight up comparison they make me happy haha.

 

Fixed that for ya. Seriously, if you wanna hard-counter his DK, take the Prince. You aren't spending that many more points than he will (teleporter+sword is 230 minimum, more if he takes any guns on it), and the Prince has the added advantage of going through the rest of the army pretty easily (it takes Purifiers or TDA blob to end him).

[Gentlemanloser]

And like everyone said, Daemon princes are far too overpriced

 

260 points for the NDK.

 

255 points for the DP.

 

Overpriced by being cheaper...

 

I don't get it.

[spafe]

Just mentioning, Oblits dont start with FnP, so wont benefit (I think thats right).

 

I think the baby carrier is very powerful, and can be a huge shock having an enemy drop 3 into your deployment zone turn one with shunt before bbq-ing silly amounts of stuff, but it can be countered. Double tapping 3 plague units into one will drop it, yes thats a lot of investment but hey, they are troops, and get better in tally list!

 

One easy-ish answer could be if you can assult one with a unit of 30 cultists, (with MoN if you want to kill it once your tally is up), have a apostle nearby to grant fealessness and jsut ignore it for rest of game?