How am I supposed to beat GK?...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just mentioning, Oblits dont start with FnP, so wont benefit (I think thats right).

 

Ah true. Still, AP2 assault cannons, and 3+ FNP Plague Marines...yeah

 

I think the baby carrier is very powerful, and can be a huge shock having an enemy drop 3 into your deployment zone turn one with shunt before bbq-ing silly amounts of stuff, but it can be countered. Double tapping 3 plague units into one will drop it, yes thats a lot of investment but hey, they are troops, and get better in tally list!

 

Pretty much. Even dirt-cheap regular CSM with double plasma will chip wounds off it, enough for an Oblit or Havok volley to end the threat. DK's are quite vulnerable to CSM lists.

 

One easy-ish answer could be if you can assult one with a unit of 30 cultists, (with MoN if you want to kill it once your tally is up), have a apostle nearby to grant fealessness and jsut ignore it for rest of game?

 

You are far slower, so unless he just finished eating one of your units, it'll be hard to pull off. You can't hide them in a transport, so what probably will end up happening is he'll get the drop on you, dump heavy incinerator into them then charge you. Also, he can challenge the Apostle and still force a fall back, then potentially a Sweeping Advance. I've done it to Chaos Marines before, its glorious (no ATSKNF is huge in that scenario).

[spafe]

One easy-ish answer could be if you can assult one with a unit of 30 cultists, (with MoN if you want to kill it once your tally is up), have a apostle nearby to grant fealessness and jsut ignore it for rest of game?

 

You are far slower, so unless he just finished eating one of your units, it'll be hard to pull off. You can't hide them in a transport, so what probably will end up happening is he'll get the drop on you, dump heavy incinerator into them then charge you. Also, he can challenge the Apostle and still force a fall back, then potentially a Sweeping Advance. I've done it to Chaos Marines before, its glorious (no ATSKNF is huge in that scenario).

 

Ah okay, yeah I suppose so. I was thinking against my gk enemy its shunt 3 forwards into your face turn one, so even if one flames your cultists, 25 or so remaining can still charge, as he cant charge after shunt (that right?).

 

Also meant for apostle to just be withing 12" to grant fearless rather than in unit (otherwise silly challenge rule kicks in :))

 

Would a sorc with FW be able to insta gib one btw? im thinking they might have to have boosted themselve with some power or other (dont really know powers, havent used them much yet) to hurt him... but insta kill aint bad (im thinking slanesh to go 1st, with maybe a poison/+2str power if one exists)

[Loher]

Again NDK do not need to pay 75 points to be able to DS. Check NDK armor entry. 185 and 5/15 points for 1/3 servoskulls and you can DS him almost anywhere, scattering 1d6. Still DP is too overpriced in comparison.

Personally, I find it hard to spend 255 points for a general with no assault grenades, who need to glide to enter play turn 1, has no EW and cannot join anything. I find it really overpriced, especially when GK are really a common enemy araound tournament tables.... or necrons scythes spam and their nice ray of death. Just my 2 cents.

[Gentlemanloser]

NDK can't fly. Has no grenades. Can't join any units. Doesn't have EW.

 

*Everything* you just said about the overpriced DP.

 

Plus they are comparable in price. The NDK can come much cheaper, bare bones, but is then a 6" walking massive target that can only punch things too stupid enough not to walk out of it's path.

[brindley]

Wow that got hostile really fast...

 

Anyway ignoring potential flame wars, the reason we are calling daemon prince overpriced is it will cost more than an NDK and still be easier to kill. You guys are suggesting a 255 pt DP, well starts at 145, wings and mark 200, im assuming black mace 245. So you have a T5 4W model with a 5++ save...yippee...IT hurts to pay that many points for a model that can easily be shot down. And to give it any ranged power is say another 30 points, power armour another 20. so all around DP is 300 and can still instantly die to a single grey knights attack back. Regardless, it's easy to see that people are thinking of their own codex as underpowered or something and the other army better than it is but i'm doing the same so can't judge.

 

The cultist idea would be kinda funny but would instantly make me far less competitive. a dark apostle is an overpriced hq slot, and the cultists have a champ as well, who would challenge and die. Still it would be funny for zombies or something to hold a NDK down all game. While there may be reason for mass cultists being good, they generally wont end up doing something to the opponent, and in the case of my tally list, dont get any good buffs from it until they are wounding on 2s ignoring saves in combat. which is still pretty funny, but i really want to max out units that use it better, like feel no pain

 

Please don't list off half of the codex and say they can instantly beat an NDK, the condescending tone is rather insulting and immature. Anyway, thanks guys. And one last thing, what buffs do GK get against daemons, because wouldn't they do better against a DP because of that.

 

edit: Just realized chaos spawn would be good all around unit that when vsing GK can tie up an NDK, fearless and if they survived long enough to get the ignoring armour then hell yea. They wouldnt insantly die either with MoN due to T6. Hmmm now just do make room for them in my liiist.

[thade]

Brindley, if you're going to "avoid potential flamewars", perhaps the confrontational edge you take for your closing statement is actually against your own wishes?

 

Let's keep it civil in here, folks.

[Azekai]

Has no grenades. Can't join any units. Doesn't have EW.

 

You must be comparing it to the daemon codex entry. Our current DP in the CSM dex can't do any of those things either (which makes it pretty useless against those all-too-common force weapons).

[Brother Ambroz]

Please don't list off half of the codex and say they can instantly beat an NDK, the condescending tone is rather insulting and immature. Anyway, thanks guys. And one last thing, what buffs do GK get against daemons, because wouldn't they do better against a DP because of that.

 

edit: Just realized chaos spawn would be good all around unit that when vsing GK can tie up an NDK, fearless and if they survived long enough to get the ignoring armour then hell yea. They wouldnt insantly die either with MoN due to T6. Hmmm now just do make room for them in my liiist.

 

I agree, just picking units is sort of situational and not all that relevant.

 

The spawn wouldn't last long because each wound could be FW'd.

[Babel_Triumphant]

260 points for a dreadknight is just silly. Get two dreadknights instead, barebones for the same price. Deep strike them in. Is it honestly worth the points for rerolls to hit and wound when you already have WS5 and S10? Or an AP4 flamer? A marked, power armored, winged prince with the black mace costs twice the points of a standard dreadknight and dies to a single wound because of inferior toughness and lack of EW. Sure, the prince can just avoid the dreadknight. Then it just murders everything else.

[brindley]

Brindley, if you're going to "avoid potential flamewars", perhaps the confrontational edge you take for your closing statement is actually against your own wishes?

 

Let's keep it civil in here, folks.

 

you are right good sir, i think i'm going to take this conversation back to the chaos threads.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hostility? Should i have used a wink smily? I assure you I'm not getting angry about any of this.

 

You must be comparing it to the daemon codex entry. Our current DP in the CSM dex can't do any of those things either

 

No, i was highlight the flaw in the post above mine;

 

Personally, I find it hard to spend 255 points for a general with no assault grenades, who need to glide to enter play turn 1, has no EW and cannot join anything. I find it really overpriced

 

the reason we are calling daemon prince overpriced is it will cost more than an NDK and still be easier to kill. You guys are suggesting a 255 pt DP, well starts at 145, wings and mark 200, im assuming black mace 245.

 

I posted costs earlier...

 

Yes, the DP is *slightly* easier to kill. It can be IDed to S10 weapons. It (if you chose DP of T) has an equivalent save (reroll 1's on a 3+/5++ is slightly better than 2+/5++).

 

To top this off, the DP can fly, and get the lovely penalty to be shot at while doing so. Something the NDK cannot.

 

The NDK can be built as a better shooting platform. But has, apart from the H Incinerator, craptastic weapons.

 

The DP is *devestatingly* offensive in CC. 4/5 x S10 AP2 attacks, versus 11/13 AP4-2 attacks. At I8. With one weapon choice giving you the chance to wipe out an entire 50 man IG blob in a single swing.

 

what buffs do GK get against daemons, because wouldn't they do better against a DP because of that.

 

Veteren of the Long War. Not quite as good as PE: Daemon.

 

At least the NDK doesn't get Psykout 'nades...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Ah okay, yeah I suppose so. I was thinking against my gk enemy its shunt 3 forwards into your face turn one, so even if one flames your cultists, 25 or so remaining can still charge, as he cant charge after shunt (that right?).

 

No he can't charge after shunt. But what he'll do is fly over your Cultists screen and ignore them. Which means you either trot them backwards to die, or move away. He's got such high mobility, the Cultists are unlikely to catch him. If he's bogged down eating Marines or something though, by all means charge in and tarpit.

 

Also meant for apostle to just be withing 12" to grant fearless rather than in unit (otherwise silly challenge rule kicks in )

 

If he's outside the unit, the DK will just pounce on him, then be free to move next turn.

 

Would a sorc with FW be able to insta gib one btw? im thinking they might have to have boosted themselve with some power or other (dont really know powers, havent used them much yet) to hurt him... but insta kill aint bad (im thinking slanesh to go 1st, with maybe a poison/+2str power if one exists)

 

Nope. You have to take force axe to break the DK's 2+ armour, and he goes first with his own force weapon and re-rolls to hit+wound. You have no chance. Its basically Blind Axe Lords, Princes and heavy hitters like Abby or Khârn that will take down a DK. Sorcerors are too slow and don't have AP2 melee at Initiative.

 

Again NDK do not need to pay 75 points to be able to DS. Check NDK armor entry. 185 and 5/15 points for 1/3 servoskulls and you can DS him almost anywhere, scattering 1d6. Still DP is too overpriced in comparison.

 

Who said anything about Deepstrike? Shunting is superior in every measurable way, as is Jump Infantry status. No smart Knight player leaves home without the teleporter. He's just too slow otherwise.

 

Anyway ignoring potential flame wars, the reason we are calling daemon prince overpriced is it will cost more than an NDK and still be easier to kill. You guys are suggesting a 255 pt DP, well starts at 145, wings and mark 200, im assuming black mace 245. So you have a T5 4W model with a 5++ save...yippee...IT hurts to pay that many points for a model that can easily be shot down. And to give it any ranged power is say another 30 points, power armour another 20. so all around DP is 300 and can still instantly die to a single grey knights attack back. Regardless, it's easy to see that people are thinking of their own codex as underpowered or something and the other army better than it is but i'm doing the same so can't judge.

 

No disagreement from me, he is overpriced. I wouldn't say he's bad though, he goes through Paladins and Terminators like a buzzsaw, same with Strikes and Purifiers. We don't have a lot of AP3 shooting, so if you buy him power armour, he can tank PsyDread shooting just fine. He'll still die to massed fire but that's true of all lone models.

 

The way to keep him alive is field multiple threats. If the Knight player focuses down your Prince, thats letting the Oblits, Havoks, Terminators etc with less fire to tank. Also, try to hide him, that's how we keep our DK alive.

 

The cultist idea would be kinda funny but would instantly make me far less competitive. a dark apostle is an overpriced hq slot, and the cultists have a champ as well, who would challenge and die. Still it would be funny for zombies or something to hold a NDK down all game. While there may be reason for mass cultists being good, they generally wont end up doing something to the opponent, and in the case of my tally list, dont get any good buffs from it until they are wounding on 2s ignoring saves in combat. which is still pretty funny, but i really want to max out units that use it better, like feel no pain

 

Zombies won't work, because DK has S10 in melee, so he ignores FNP on the Zombies. His heavy incinerator (if he brings one) will also burn through them pretty quickly. That's assuming he even engages the Zombie blob. They are SnP infantry, he is Jump Infantry with a shunt move, he can just avoid them.

 

Please don't list off half of the codex and say they can instantly beat an NDK, the condescending tone is rather insulting and immature. Anyway, thanks guys. And one last thing, what buffs do GK get against daemons, because wouldn't they do better against a DP because of that.

 

I was making the point that you do have good hard-counters to a DK. I apologise if it came across that way, but I was sorta surprised you hadn't considered any of those options. Chaos do have answers to Knight units. Oblits alone gives us a lot of trouble.

 

edit: Just realized chaos spawn would be good all around unit that when vsing GK can tie up an NDK, fearless and if they survived long enough to get the ignoring armour then hell yea. They wouldnt insantly die either with MoN due to T6. Hmmm now just do make room for them in my liiist.

 

Again though, like with Zombies, he can just avoid them. And they aren't immune to ID, he has a force weapon (specific ID will still kill them).

 

260 points for a dreadknight is just silly. Get two dreadknights instead, barebones for the same price. Deep strike them in. Is it honestly worth the points for rerolls to hit and wound when you already have WS5 and S10? Or an AP4 flamer? A marked, power armored, winged prince with the black mace costs twice the points of a standard dreadknight and dies to a single wound because of inferior toughness and lack of EW. Sure, the prince can just avoid the dreadknight. Then it just murders everything else.

 

155 x 2 /=/ 260 points.

 

Deep Strike is a terrible option. You just feed them to the Chaos ranged units. Plasma, lascannon, melta...not to mention you are stuck in place, so he can send in Terminators as well.

 

Prince will only ID to S10 weaponry, which Knights don't possess outside of melee (hammers, DK). With the power armour upgrade he'll fly through PsyDread fire and still eat our squads. No EW is silly, but them's the breaks.

 

Veteren of the Long War. Not quite as good as PE: Daemon.

 

Re-rolls on the charge is still pretty good, especially on a Prince. On Terminators with fists+Khorne its pretty brutal.

 

you are right good sir, i think i'm going to take this conversation back to the chaos threads.

 

Well that was fun...

[Babel_Triumphant]

I just checked the entry for the NDK. I can guarantee you that they're 130 points naked.

[brindley]

haha thanks guys. the thread actually turned out to be good comparisons. i think it might be best to try and prevent charges from the ndk until i can rapid fire him to death and/or force him to come out. it seems more reliable than try to go after those beasts in combat. the range from a rhino squad rapid firing can be up to 24 so i have a bit of room to work with

[Watcher]

Bring out some AP2 weapons, personally u just got to take out the 2+ armour save for terminators and then whala their stuck with a 4 or 5+ invulnerable saves , dredknights on the other hand u can blow krak missiles right at'em.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I just checked the entry for the NDK. I can guarantee you that they're 130 points naked.

 

Ah, my mistake. I was adding the greatsword in automatically without thinking. Yeah, technically you can run two slowpoke no re-rolls FailKnights for the price of one awesome mobile death machine. You'll also be burning two Heavy slots to do it (which means less PsyDreads). I wouldn't recommend it though. Given the frequency with which mine dies (I run him without incinerator to save points, so technically he's still cheaper than two bare-bones), I would never run him without sword+teleporter. He'd die before doing anything.

 

haha thanks guys. the thread actually turned out to be good comparisons. i think it might be best to try and prevent charges from the ndk until i can rapid fire him to death and/or force him to come out. it seems more reliable than try to go after those beasts in combat. the range from a rhino squad rapid firing can be up to 24 so i have a bit of room to work with

 

Rapid-fire plasma, bolter will just dink off his 2+ armour. And yeah, the new rules for rapid-fire make multiple plasma guns pretty worthwhile at chipping wounds off him, even at max range. Just be aware he has a lot of mobility, so you need to trap him and then kill him.

 

Bring out some AP2 weapons, personally u just got to take out the 2+ armour save for terminators and then whala their stuck with a 4 or 5+ invulnerable saves , dredknights on the other hand u can blow krak missiles right at'em.

 

DK's have a 2+ save, krak missiles mean nothing to them (they wound more often than bolters, but they still don't force invul saves). I eat Long Fangs who do that, the Wolf player since switched to lascannons and my DK goes back to dying Turn 3 after eating a GH pack.

[Gentlemanloser]

I was incorrectly not applying 'Smash' to a Black Mace.

 

Therefore, *always* Take a DP of T, with the Black Mace and a combat Familiar (for 2 extra AP2 attacks). Slighty more expensive than a NDK, still under 300 points, and able to murder *everything* in the game.

 

DP > NDK

[Fibonacci]

combat Familiar (for 2 extra AP2 attacks).

It does not work that way. Please see comment in the OR thread.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, shave an extra 10 points back off.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, Combat Familiar is terrible, dunno why they put it in. The Spell Familiar though....good god, what insanity was that?

 

'Whats the drawback of psykers?'

'Failing psychic tests'

'Give them a re-roll upgrade then'

'But Eldar...'

'Are xenos, and thus must always suck. MAKE IT SO'

 

Srsly, Chaos Sorcerers are now the best in the game, just with that one upgrade. They can dodge even Runes of FaceMelt using it.

[brindley]

Yeah, Combat Familiar is terrible, dunno why they put it in. The Spell Familiar though....good god, what insanity was that?

 

'Whats the drawback of psykers?'

'Failing psychic tests'

'Give them a re-roll upgrade then'

'But Eldar...'

'Are xenos, and thus must always suck. MAKE IT SO'

 

Srsly, Chaos Sorcerers are now the best in the game, just with that one upgrade. They can dodge even Runes of FaceMelt using it.

 

That has to be easily one of the funniest things i've ever read related to warhammer.

[Zeratul29]

Yea for 190 points you get:

sorcerer

+ terminator armour

+ sigil of corruption

+ mastery level 3

+ spell familiar

+mark of tzeentch

 

equaling a great hq... 2+/3+ and ridiculous psychic capabilities

[spafe]

How am I supposed to beat gk?

 

"With a stick, while they sleep, but in a baby carrier, with a teleporter, they are unbeatable" (sorry jsut came to me, and sounded funny in my head, kudos and cookies to whoever gets the reference)

 

Hmm, am I right in thinking a dreadknight has 4 attackes, so against above sorc, 3 hit with re-roll, 3 wound, he will fail one save, meaning he dies. If he gets a tad lucky, he survives, and can then have hand 4 attacks, hitting 3 with re-roll, wounds one, has 2/3 chance to get wound through and 'slay the beast'

 

For a force multiplyer char, they arnt bad odds to open can of whoop ass on that gk. If he then runs some form of useful powers and uses said powers...well, in the great words from monty python, 'always look on the bright side of life(death)!'

[adamv6]

Sorry if this offends people, but this thread is everything that is currently wrong with 40K 6th Edition. People whinging about "You're X is overpowered and underpriced against my Y" blah blah blah, thud... sorry I fell asleep.

 

You run something that's T5 and not EW into CC against something that hits at S10 / AP2, and I am sorry, you get everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) you deserve. Infact, you deserve more. It doesn't matter if X is 50 points cheaper than it should be, or Y is overpriced. X will suck against other things, Y will demolish other things.

 

How you beat GKs is to not engage them at what they are good at. Now I know people will dive onto that statement like a dog on a bone, but its the plain simple truth. I never win games because our codex is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO amazing, I win them because I do what will break my opponents game plan.

 

So people, stop churping and whinging about not being able to beat GKs because they are 'broken' and learn your own codex and how to maximise it.

 

BTW, I play a pure slaanesh CSM army with daemon (Masque, Chariot and Daemonettes) allys, I have beaten GKs 3 times with it. And yes, I did beat a NDK with the masque and 8 daemonettes. GO GO PAVANE!!

[spafe]

Adam, just a quick point, since I dont want to diverge into a massive spin off, but one thing to consider, with our (our being chaos) challenge rules, and them being jump inf, with shunt (and in my case, 3 of them!) they are kinda hard to avoid. if they make contact, well what ever they have hit better be able to roll with the punches.

 

Well done for beating them, I have to, but I'm guessing the person who started this thread might be having some difficulty with that so suggesting some ideas to counter it is what they are after.

 

Otherwise, yeah I agree about points, they mean very little when stuff hits the table, as the whole point of a wargame be to bring more of your forces against lesser enemy ones at the time. in general, GK will be fought same as everything else, but those baby carriers have very high moverabily and durability