How am I supposed to beat GK?...

[DK1]

Quick add to how to beat a NDK, as a GK player i always avoid Force Weapons and TH/SS terms. Use that to take down NDKs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yea for 190 points you get:

sorcerer

+ terminator armour

+ sigil of corruption

+ mastery level 3

+ spell familiar

+mark of tzeentch

 

equaling a great hq... 2+/3+ and ridiculous psychic capabilities

 

Yeah, and incidentally he's the same price as a storm shield Librarian for normal Marines, but way better. And, he gets the option of taking a powerfist/chainfist in his off hand, for when his force sword isn't enough. Sorcerors are fantastic, dunno why people bother with the SC's or the melee heroes when you get him instead.

 

Hmm, am I right in thinking a dreadknight has 4 attackes, so against above sorc, 3 hit with re-roll, 3 wound, he will fail one save, meaning he dies. If he gets a tad lucky, he survives, and can then have hand 4 attacks, hitting 3 with re-roll, wounds one, has 2/3 chance to get wound through and 'slay the beast'

 

5 on the charge, and he will get the charge usually. The Sorceror will have to go force axe or powerfist to stand a chance of killing it.

 

Sorry if this offends people, but this thread is everything that is currently wrong with 40K 6th Edition. People whinging about "You're X is overpowered and underpriced against my Y" blah blah blah, thud... sorry I fell asleep.

 

You run something that's T5 and not EW into CC against something that hits at S10 / AP2, and I am sorry, you get everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) you deserve. Infact, you deserve more. It doesn't matter if X is 50 points cheaper than it should be, or Y is overpriced. X will suck against other things, Y will demolish other things.

 

How you beat GKs is to not engage them at what they are good at. Now I know people will dive onto that statement like a dog on a bone, but its the plain simple truth. I never win games because our codex is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO amazing, I win them because I do what will break my opponents game plan.

 

So people, stop churping and whinging about not being able to beat GKs because they are 'broken' and learn your own codex and how to maximise it.

 

Seconded. CSM have the tools to dismantle a Knight list, in fact they're better off than many non-Imperials in that regard.

 

Quick add to how to beat a NDK, as a GK player i always avoid Force Weapons and TH/SS terms. Use that to take down NDKs.

 

Force weapons won't work, unless you go axe (in which case the DK goes first anyway). Stormhammers don't exist in CSM, the best they can manage is Tzeentch Terminators with fists.

 

Look, don't bother with melee. Just spam plasma into the DK, it'll die. Its how mine dies all the time, massed fire that is AP2.

[brindley]

I'll just put a quick statement out before this potentially turns into a look how op these units are haha, Chaos sorcerers are good yes but not always viable to take. Chaos players generally start their army because of the diversity it entails, whereas greyknights have a different style of diversity and general badassery (their diversity from henchmen squads, inquisitors, assassins, etc.) Now the main problem with taking sorcerers is we need chaos lords to unlock all of the cool/unique cult troops so in games of <1850 points you generally only want 1 hq, and thus cant really take a sorcerer.

 

After playing my friend again I really tore into his NDK's as they chased down epidemius and a few other units. Cost a lot of points worth of fire but I got them haha, biggest problem was rolling for that. I rescind my statement that NDK's were super op as they are just fantastic, my main pet peeve is the FAQ that lets them have rerolls at S10. However, I read through the codex and am i right by saying Coteaz is kind of maddening? Henchmen squads are cool and easily one of the best units in the game but its too bad he's the only way you can take them as troops. If i played GK, or start getting them soon, i'd want mostly grey knights with GK hq etc, but I guess coteaz is generally an auto include then hey? Not to say that's a problem as hes so cheap and easily one of the best hq's in the game!! But I don't like how he makes a huge portion of lists seem very identical :(

 

I guess what i tried to explain there without getting anyone upset is that Coteaz is a badass as much as he is op haha, what I hate as a potential GK player though is he makes the army lists all so similar if you want to use henchmen squads...He has golden armour, a freakin eagle, and a hammer :)

 

Unfortunately all armies suffer the same thing of amazing units with crap units that you would never want to use but look super cool or have awesome fluff, for example from chaos warp talons and GK stern. It's too bad GW doesn't have a living rulebook like blood bowl, where they could FAQ something as much as changing its points value to match it up with other units. Like spell familiar for chaos sorcerers being 30 pts instead of 15, or coteaz being 140 instead of 100.

 

edit: Wait i just got an idea, i guess coteaz isnt necessarily auto include because of the grand masters special rule allowing henchmen to be like troops. Still though both are sooo cool. If I did a 1750 list would a brotherhood champ and coteaz be good hq's to take? I guess i'll plan a list and start a new thread haha

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Now the main problem with taking sorcerers is we need chaos lords to unlock all of the cool/unique cult troops so in games of <1850 points you generally only want 1 hq, and thus cant really take a sorcerer.

 

No, you don't. The only Cult Troops worth taking are Plague Marines, and even then they're not an auto-include (FNP is weaker now, and the normal Troops are pretty strong). So, at best, you want Typhus for a Plague Marine list. Beserkers > Khornate Marines, 1k Sons are terrible, Noise Marines are overpriced and don't have the flexibility (due to salvo weapons) of basic Chaos Marines.

 

i'd want mostly grey knights with GK hq etc, but I guess coteaz is generally an auto include then hey?

 

Coteaz is amazing, so yes, he is going to be in 90% of lists. You can always count-as your own character, using his rules.

 

The GK heroes really come into their own in 2k or larger games. They are expensive pointsinks below that usually. Grandmasters shine when you have a pile of non-scoring (Purifiers, PsyDreads etc). Librarians want to escort a Terminator blob. In a smaller match, I'd avoid them.

[brindley]

That's my point though against chaos, we've lost diversity which is what chaos players only ever really wanted for the most part. Berserkers are still good but need to have a list tailored to them (LR and lord), so those lists obviously couldnt have sorcerers at lower points, makes sense with khorne ;)

 

I've got no problem using coteaz, suuuuch a bada$$ model, and I will always want henchmen haha, the sheer diversity they have basically with iqnuisitors rivals the rest of the codex combined.

 

I'm looking to get grey knights from craigslist as i write this, i'd never buy the 5 man packs from GW such a ripoff. God I hate that company with a passion.

 

Normal csm troops aren't actually all that good, most experienced chaos players would trade them for normal marines just for the ATSKNF. With VotLW and a a bolter with pistol you are equal to them in points anyway, and their special weapons cost more. However I dont want to compare units anymore but just point out the amount of fun you can get out of cult troops...despite them not being the most competitive anymore :)

 

I think I might get stern to use as a proxy, would that work well?

[Brother Ambroz]

No, you don't. The only Cult Troops worth taking are Plague Marines, and even then they're not an auto-include (FNP is weaker now, and the normal Troops are pretty strong). So, at best, you want Typhus for a Plague Marine list. Beserkers > Khornate Marines, 1k Sons are terrible, Noise Marines are overpriced and don't have the flexibility (due to salvo weapons) of basic Chaos Marines.

 

Ok Jeske...

 

Seriously though, so for non - competitive lists we can only use PMs? That's the problem with it, chaos has options but nothing like the last 5th edition codex books. I'm not whining, just stating that's what most people have a problem with.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's strange. As a GK player, I looked at the CSM 'dex and thought to myself, "wow, this Dex has a plethora of diverse competitive builds. Unlike my codex."

 

which is also bolstered by Battle Brother allies.

[brindley]

Haha guys we are always going to see the flaws in our books. what darius said was close to being true, chaos does not have many different routes to go for what we consider competitive lists, GK are the same although theirs can be a lot easier to hammer out (coteaz+henchmen+fun times), which is why we see them as the most played army in tournaments. However, the player's skill should be able to outweigh that, what makes me mad is that units weren't more balanced allowing us to take whatever we want while still having armies that are relatively equally competitive.

[adamv6]

That's strange. As a GK player, I looked at the CSM 'dex and thought to myself, "wow, this Dex has a plethora of diverse competitive builds. Unlike my codex." which is also bolstered by Battle Brother allies

 

^^^^ +1

 

No, you don't. The only Cult Troops worth taking are Plague Marines.... Noise Marines are overpriced and don't have the flexibility (due to salvo weapons) of basic Chaos Marines

 

RD, thats a very myopic view. Noise Marines offer a better level of shooting capabilty than a strike squad (albeit they have to be used carefully) and they ignore cover. The Doom Siren is a brilliant addition to any Noise Marine Champion for 15pts. Would you charge a 10man unit of Noise Marines that has a doom siren in it?

 

The GK heroes really come into their own in 2k or larger games. They are expensive pointsinks below that usually

 

OK, so 2 of the 4 top lists at Adepticon 2012 had Coteaz, the others had Crowe and a Librarian. Crowe is good, but unless you go full henchman, I find a normal Inquisitor a better and sometimes cheaper option.

[Nightmare84]

Just to chime in on noise marines. They have one of the nastiest load outs for a troop choice. I seen them do crazy things.

 

I have no major problems with gk, my necrons are probably more over powered. It's grey knights tooled with guard that scares me.

[Gentlemanloser]

Anything allied to Guard...

[the jeske]

Ok Jeske...

 

Seriously though, so for non - competitive lists we can only use PMs? That's the problem with it, chaos has options but nothing like the last 5th edition codex books. I'm not whining, just stating that's what most people have a problem with.

damn you tanith you have located one of my 4 accounts .

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Ok Jeske...

 

http://tinyurl.com/cg6hp4j

 

Seriously though, so for non - competitive lists we can only use PMs? That's the problem with it, chaos has options but nothing like the last 5th edition codex books. I'm not whining, just stating that's what most people have a problem with.

 

Nah, use whatever you like in friendly lists. Also, as I pointed out, PM's are strong but not for every list. Cultists and regular Chaos Marines are fantastic core choices to base an army around.

 

RD, thats a very myopic view. Noise Marines offer a better level of shooting capabilty than a strike squad (albeit they have to be used carefully) and they ignore cover. The Doom Siren is a brilliant addition to any Noise Marine Champion for 15pts. Would you charge a 10man unit of Noise Marines that has a doom siren in it?

 

I suggest you read the salvo rules, they completely screw with how you wanna use the unit. They have I5, VOTLW and Fearless, so they are a pretty nice melee unit. On the other hand, they wanna stay still at 24" to get maximum dakka output. You also have to pay for sonic blasters, they don't come on them standard (for whatever arcane reason, rather like how Beserkers pay for AP4 axes).

Compare them to Strikes or Purifiers, you can see why they are overpriced. Plus, S4 isn't that amazing really, I wouldn't get a unit solely for its S4 output. The blastmaster is overpriced and you can get AP2 blast weaponry elsewhere in greater quantities (Forgefiend). As a shooting unit I'd be looking to bring Havoks or Forgefiends any day over Noise Marines. Unless you play a theme list and make them Troops, but even then...

 

Doom Siren is nice, but if you wanna burinate enemy Marines in cover, the dragon is a better choice. Even the Forgefiend can do well, given lower cover saves mean more will die to the ecto-plasma. Then you have stuff like quad plasma gun Chosen/Havoks etc. I wouldn't be doing any charging normally, I'm quite happy to trade fire at 24" and make you charge me.

[adamv6]

I suggest you read the salvo rules, they completely screw with how you wanna use the unit.

 

I suggest you read my post; "Noise Marines offer a better level of shooting capabilty than a strike squad (albeit they have to be used carefully)". Charging them forward is obviously an inherent problem, as you can't shoot and assault with the entire unit. However, the Doom Siren is assault 1, so when I am at a range close enough to get into combat, I can use that to reduce the numbers in the squad down rapidly (AP3 Flamer Template FTW).

 

They have I5, VOTLW and Fearless

 

They have I5 and Fearless. VoTLW is a 1 point per model upgrade. To quote something I recently read; "read the rules".

 

I'm quite happy to trade fire at 24" and make you charge me

 

Sure, I will sit at 24", not move and get 3 shots with every sonic blaster. If you have a 5+ save, your going dead, because I IGNORE COVER ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I suggest you read my post; "Noise Marines offer a better level of shooting capabilty than a strike squad (albeit they have to be used carefully)". Charging them forward is obviously an inherent problem, as you can't shoot and assault with the entire unit. However, the Doom Siren is assault 1, so when I am at a range close enough to get into combat, I can use that to reduce the numbers in the squad down rapidly (AP3 Flamer Template FTW).

 

Yeah, hence my point. You pay for an upgrade you'll use once, maybe twice, when the unit wants to sit at 24" and use maximum fire rate on the sonic blasters you already paid for. Doom Siren is nice, but it doesn't justify the cost of the unit you have to pay for as a platform. If you want anti-Marine burnination, the dragon is better.

 

They have I5 and Fearless. VoTLW is a 1 point per model upgrade. To quote something I recently read; "read the rules".

 

My bad. Wow, they're worse than I thought. I assumed the Cult Troops got it included in their cost.

 

Sure, I will sit at 24", not move and get 3 shots with every sonic blaster. If you have a 5+ save, your going dead, because I IGNORE COVER

 

But you are fighting Marines (Knights are Marines), so it makes no difference, I just take power armour saves. Against Henchmen it matters, but they're already dead to that much S4 anyway, so again, pretty irrelevant.

 

It's more clutch against IG Blob shenanigans, where you can ignore whatever insane cover bonus they're claiming from Order hax. Against Knight armies, ignoring cover isnt' that important. Ignoring our armour saves matters more.

[Agent Purple]

If chaos wants to ignore cover saves, they take 3x baledrake and burning brand IC and call it a day. Who cares about noise marines?

[Gentlemanloser]

How am I supposed to beat GK?

 

Wait till January, swap to Dangles, burninate us with a mass of Rapid-Fire Plasma, on 2+ cover save units.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If chaos wants to ignore cover saves, they take 3x heldrake and burning brand IC and call it a day. Who cares about noise marines?

 

Pretty much. Also, all of those weapons have higher Strength as well, and are on more durable platforms.

 

Wait till January, swap to Dangles, burninate us with a mass of Rapid-Fire Plasma, on 2+ cover save units.

 

Lel. I'm a fan of Dark Angels, and I can't stop laughing at every new rumour+pic leaked. Everything looks dumb and overwrought. Here is hoping they are OP as hell, because the models look goofy. Design team must have been on bad acid when sculpting the TIE fighters and Luke's landspeeder.

[Gentlemanloser]

:P

 

To be honest, I lost interest in Dangles the moment they retconned the 'Deathwing' book and changed them from being Native American's in Space.

 

But damn, those vehicles look bad.

 

Bikes with Twin Linked Plasma guns (or better) with Turbo-boost, skilled rider and stealth from a flying brick.

 

But at least thier Paladin wannbe's only have AP4 Weapons. Oh, they also get a rumoured S10/AP2 attack on the charge. At initiative.

 

And Quicksilver Hammers are deemed 'broken'.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

To be honest, I lost interest in Dangles the moment they retconned the 'Deathwing' book and changed them from being Native American's in Space.

 

You do understand that it was never retconned? It is a parable told to initiates to seed the relevant ideas and themes, so when they rise through the ranks and learn moar, they keep getting reinforced the same lessons. Whether it actually happened or not is irrelevant (remember, as per standing GW policy, everything is canon), it's told in that context.

 

They never were Native Americans In Sphess anyway. Their background is pretty feudal European (Caliban, Orders, monks, etc). If that isn't your thing, fair call.

 

Bikes with Twin Linked Plasma guns (or better) with Turbo-boost, skilled rider and stealth from a flying brick.

 

You can see the logic though. Nobody will buy the kits unless they give them superkool new rules. Hence the 'elite' Ravenwing sub-faction and the 'elite' Deathwing sub-faction. Which completely jars with previous background, but whatever, as stated above, all is canon.

 

But at least thier Paladin wannbe's only have AP4 Weapons. Oh, they also get a rumoured S10/AP2 attack on the charge. At initiative.

 

Tasty. Yeah, the mauls are going to be useless otherwise, but for that one charge you make (and hey, how many combats do Terminators get into anyway? slowpokes), you'll kick teeth in. The idea of the unit is dumb of course, but as I mentioned, they're trying to shift the new kits, gotta draw you in with new rules.

 

And Quicksilver Hammers are deemed 'broken'.

 

Once per game vs every turn you get 'Quicksilver' off. There is a difference :confused: . Also, its likely the new 'super duper' Deathwing unit is 5-man max, and they'll let you take the 10-man of the plebian-tier Deathwing. 5 dudes who get one fantastic whupping phase, then slap pathetically at your armour for the rest of the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

It is a parable told to initiates to seed the relevant ideas and themes

 

:)

 

Whatever it helps to swallow the retcon! :)

 

It's wasn't a parable when the book was originally published. And the potential impact of losing the chapters homeworld is vastly lessened if plainsworld was in fact just a small world the chapter took it's genetic stock from, and loss of the world didn't imply loss of the chapters future.

 

You can see the logic though.

 

Totally!

 

Once per game vs every turn you get 'Quicksilver' off. There is a difference

 

It's up in the air atm. Might be first round of every combat they initiate, or take part in. Could be once per game. No ones sure. :/

 

Besides, you can stop Quicksilver going off. You can't stop this ability from being used. Due to the drawbacks, quicksilver should be better.

 

They also get Hammer of Wrath as well. ;)

 

I hope they cost more than Paladin, what with thier Storm shields...

[Nightmare84]

Personally I quite like maces. Wounding majority infantry on 2s is awesome and only is worse than a sword against meq save. Against everything else it's much better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's wasn't a parable when the book was originally published. And the potential impact of losing the chapters homeworld is vastly lessened if plainsworld was in fact just a small world the chapter took it's genetic stock from, and loss of the world didn't imply loss of the chapters future.

 

No I know, but they worked it in as a parable later on. The impact is still pretty high, Astartes recruiting worlds are left backward and largely defenceless for a reason (the Chapter wants primitive, hardened children as initiates, and they don't want anyone else interfering in that process or spying on them). The trade off is the Astartes get better recruits, but they in turn have to come to the planet's defence if anything attacks. You can see why it would appeal to a Chapter initiate.

 

I think its pretty obvious, even before they re-jigged its place in the canon, that it was intended as a parable. The Deathwing have an entirely separate reason for their white armour, that has nothing to do with tribal traditions. The fact the Chapter would send a small unit of Deathwing and a Librarian to quell an infestation of Tyranids is also pretty suspect, given that is not how any Chapter usually deals with the problem (they aren't that arrogant). Dark Angels are even less likely to waste their dedicated Fallen hunters on a task like that. I could be wrong though, I don't go back to Rogue Trader with my background in 40k (I started in 3rd just before 4th dropped). Just my two cents

 

Personally I quite like maces. Wounding majority infantry on 2s is awesome and only is worse than a sword against meq save. Against everything else it's much better.

 

Gee, what forms over 50% of the armies in this game? Both in terms of models released, army books and actual player representation? Yep, Marines. So, even in random friendly games, you are pretty likely to encounter an army of Marines who literally don't care about AP4. The Deathwing Knights are going to get one good round of melee (with their S10 AP2 buff), but everything after that is going to be fail. Especially against enemy Terminators, who are cheaper.

 

That is why mauls are terrible. GW should've never introduced AP in melee, its the dumbest port from Fantasy and it shows (Strength is irrelevant if you can't break armour saves).

[Nightmare84]

Yes a large portion of the player base may be meq but if 2+ do run into deathwing knights they will still out hit a equal unit with power swords. It's only the 3+ they are worse against the 2+ and 4 and above they will out damage a power sword and you it's almost equal against axes if you equate int step into for attacks back.

 

Meh, I'm the believer ap to melee is the best thing about the edition. Gives a lot of units some worth besides being pretty models.

[Valerian]

My memory on this OT point isn't perfect, but those Dark Angels discovered the Genesteeler Cult once they were on Plainsworld and simply had to deal with it themselves; they weren't sent there for that purpose. There wasn't time to wait for reinforcements either. As I recall, it was one of several/many recruiting worlds, and although the Dark Angels Legion/Chapter has the monastic-knight theme (from Caliban), those specific Dark Angels were recruited from Plainsworld themselves and at least spent their youth/adolescence as "Native Americans" before being claimed for the Chapter. It was interesting how they used the event to 1) explain the white/ashen Armour color, and 2) incorporate "Indian" symbols (like the feathers and other totems) that really don't jive at all with symbols of Caliban knights.

 

Valerian