Montuhotep Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Simple question, as above - are they worth their Fast Attack slot or are they still as poor as they were with the last Codex? Was thinking of using a unit of 3 for disruption/meatshield purposes since the 1 in 3 chance of getting some armour is pretty nice, but really? Opinions, Gents? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 They are not as bad as last codex, but lack of saves still makes me think hard before taking them. Only use I can think of is escorting Juggernaut Lord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 With Mark of Nurgle they come in at 12pts per T6 wound which is a bargin. In addition they count as beasts which makes them very fast. Their prime role is fast screen and tarpit unit. They are not there to beat things up on their own, they are there to screen the troops who will and to tie up threats like heavy weapon teams or shooty units who can put the hurt on your other units. I think they are fantastic and I always have a use for them in my games. My fast attack slots always include a unit of bikes and a unit of nurgle spawn to lend speed to my horde foot list. The problem with spawn is not that they are bad, it is that our FA selections have so many great choices. Heldrakes and cheap bikes will often get picked over spawn because while spawn are good, the flyer and cheap bikes are amazing. #1. Bikes #2. Heldrake #3. Spawn/Raptors #4. A used gym sock #5. Warp Talons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindley Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 That used gym sock choice is pretty good! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoaDirty Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 As they are beasts, they can be in your opponents' face really quick and force him/her to deal with them. And they are pretty cheap. On a side note, I really want to use some in my Iron Warriors, using Fantasy Ogres, and calling them "forced conscript Ogryns". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I've only faced them, not used them, but I found them pretty nasty. They really get onto you quick, and cover-hopping, T6, multi-wound Beasts are not fun to deal with, especially if there's 3+ of them. And they ended up tying up a support unit for, effectively, the rest of the game. While the scenery wasn't a huge help to me in this instance, I do think that they really force a tarpit threat that is more effective, and harder to take out, than a Maulerfiend for a few less points (and without the removal of a heavy slot, to boot). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Spawn are a great distraction / annoyance unit, and you'll find relatively little in the codex that can cause as much disruption for as few points. However, Bikes and Heldrakes are by a wide margin the most powerful and difficult to deal with units in our codex. As such, while spawn are easily worth their points, they're generally not worth their slots if you're playing vaguely competitive games with a single detachment. It's not that you'll regret fielding the spawn, it's that you'll regret not fielding more bikes & drakes. In a casual setting, they're fine, particularly in small distraction units with MoN, or larger undivided units escorting a juggerlord with axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I dont have enough FA slots to run them under 2k points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Too bad one can't mix marks, T6 Nurgle spawns with a Juggernaut Lord would be cool :D Wouldn't die to a single hit even from S10 attacks! Spawn can indeed be expensive though. Compare a 36-point 3-wound spawn with no save and no ranged attacks to a 26-point Nurgle Biker with a 3+ save and a twin-linked boltgun... hmm. Well, actually I do suppose that against AP1-3 weapons the Spawn actually is "better" in terms of survivability per point. In close combat with some dice luck the spawn can also put out a sick amount of attacks. 5 models, roll a 6 after charging and you've got 8*5=40 S5 attacks. Nice. Too bad can't have larger squads though, would be funny to test out a blob of 10 spawns. Especially against my arch-nemesis' wyches and incubi! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3255865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Spawn are especially good because they can (more or less) reliably pull of turn 1 charges, which is very nice! But how to model them I wonder? These are just too ugly and expensive. Vargheists are cheaper (still expensive though), prettier and if you buy 2 boxes you can still build a plastic daemon prince as well! Do you think these might work if I glue on some power armor bits? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 How can they pull off first turn charges? AFAIK you can't charge after Infiltrating/ Outflanking etc so I don't see first turn charges being a regular occurrence unless your opponent is sending bikers/ jump pack units straight at you and you go second o_O But I did see someone (can't remember where) who made a very nice couple of models out of Minotaur torsos and Vargheist legs and heads (though he shaved off the pointy ears). It looks very fast but very powerful, so might make decent spawn conversions, though not particularly 'crazy' or mutated spawn... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I've seen some good conversions with minimal changes to the River Trolls Though they are the same or more expensive per model than the GW spawn, ForgeWorld has some beautiful models. Any of the 40k Renegade Ogryns, or anything from the Fantasy Chaos page. The best I'd think would be either the Skin Wolves or if you want more armored spawn, the Fimir (listed under Warhammer monsters, but not chaos). I personally have a soft spot for the Plague Toads, and have them pensiled into my future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 How can they pull off first turn charges? AFAIK you can't charge after Infiltrating/ Outflanking etc so I don't see first turn charges being a regular occurrence unless your opponent is sending bikers/ jump pack units straight at you and you go second o_O I've seen it happen with the right army. Place your spawn as offensivly as possible. Then 12" move and fleet attack that ignores terrain. Idealy you should also have an daemon ally with Pavane of Slaanesh though! But I did see someone (can't remember where) who made a very nice couple of models out of Minotaur torsos and Vargheist legs and heads (though he shaved off the pointy ears). It looks very fast but very powerful, so might make decent spawn conversions, though not particularly 'crazy' or mutated spawn... Sounds awesome! I've seen some good conversions with minimal changes to the River Trolls That sounds cool! Any idea where they can be found? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 You can't fleet and charge in 6e, right? That's not allowed? Anyway, OMG, those spawn are expensive! They're almost twice the price that they were when I bought them! Definitely avoid those. Anything else will do - Ogres, trolls, crypt horrors/vargheists, unridden juggers, plague toads, heck, even a beast of nurgle would be a better call, if you just need one for boon results. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 You can't fleet and charge in 6e, right? That's not allowed? Fleet now allows you to reroll one or both of the charge distance dice. It is CRAZY good for close combat units. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Yeah, but even with a max charge roll, you're still not going to be alpha rushing without pavane, and I don't think we expect the pavane to survive the upcoming daemon codex. And even then, the opponent has to be deploying pretty close to make it work even with pavane, and even with a re-roll that's still quite the charge distance to try and roll... Spawn are fast, but I wouldn't really call them 'alpha rush' fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Yeah, but even with a max charge roll, you're still not going to be alpha rushing without pavane, and I don't think we expect the pavane to survive the upcoming daemon codex. Yeah propably not if you go first and/or the opponent doesn't move towards you. Also I agree that pavane will propably bite it in the next dex (if there will be a new dex and not just another WD update). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 But how to model them I wonder? Spawn indeed are ugly and expensive. While I hate proxying, I'm thinking that I'll just use Possessed models that I have no use for otherwise, since I'm getting some from the two Battleforces I ordered. Of course gotta switch to a larger base, though. How can they pull off first turn charges? AFAIK you can't charge after Infiltrating/ Outflanking etc so I don't see first turn charges being a regular occurrence unless your opponent is sending bikers/ jump pack units straight at you and you go second o_O At our LGS the table is about 50". Deployments often are 18". So the "no-man's-land" is a mere 14", often easily allowing for turn 1 charges. It's a bit nutty to have 18" deployments with such a table, but... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 But how to model them I wonder? Spawn indeed are ugly and expensive. While I hate proxying, I'm thinking that I'll just use Possessed models that I have no use for otherwise, since I'm getting some from the two Battleforces I ordered. Of course gotta switch to a larger base, though. How can they pull off first turn charges? AFAIK you can't charge after Infiltrating/ Outflanking etc so I don't see first turn charges being a regular occurrence unless your opponent is sending bikers/ jump pack units straight at you and you go second o_O At our LGS the table is about 50". Deployments often are 18". So the "no-man's-land" is a mere 14", often easily allowing for turn 1 charges. It's a bit nutty to have 18" deployments with such a table, but... :) You do know that all the deployment types measure from the center of the table to your deployment zone edge, not from your table edge? There is always 24" between the deployment zones... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 You do know that all the deployment types measure from the center of the table to your deployment zone edge, not from your table edge? There is always 24" between the deployment zones... By the rulebook yes, I know, but I've no idea where this habit has come from at the LGS. Deployments are always 12" or 18". I realize this makes for a poor case for turn 1 assault anywhere else, but here they certainly do happen. Because they're usually to my detriment (in other words, it's generally my arch-enemy, the DEldar, doing it) I think I really gotta start questioning that tradition. But even that aside, 24" separation isn't necessarily too big of a deterrent, seeing as even if you go second the enemy may have come closer already :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 If they are closer then they are playing an assault army[god knows why, but that doesnt matter for this example] and if they are playing an assault army , then the last thing is to be in assault with them . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3256934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 If they are closer then they are playing an assault army[god knows why, but that doesnt matter for this example] and if they are playing an assault army , then the last thing is to be in assault with them . Why? Perhaps to have fun instead of boring oneself to death with retarded mathhammer lists? But you wouldn't know anything about playing for fun, as much has been established in a million different topics so far. Plus, if my unit happens to be an assault unit too like in our latest match with the DEldar guy, it's kinda silly to stay out of an assault with them too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3257128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Ok maybe am losing the sense of this in translation . you claim , that first turn charging spawn in to a superior assault army and those spawn dieing[well they did just first turn charge an assault based army] is fun ? Isn't doing something like that , you know , stupid ? Even if we assume that fun is spending time with other people and that game play doesnt matter , a first turn charge against an assault army means your losing units faster . Ergo the game will end sooner , so by doing a first turn charge your shortning the "fun" . So actualy the best for "fun" army would be one that avoids melee at all cost , because even for ATKNF/fearless units it ends rather quickly and this makes the game end before turn 5-6. Also assault units in a DE build in 6th ed ? :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3257173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 You sir, are beyond hope ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267301-are-spawn-worth-taking-now/#findComment-3257968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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