What armies are you guys troubled by

[brindley]

I had a derivative of this in the grey knight subforum but the topic was very controversial and I didn't get as many strategies offered to me as much as starting an argument of which book has better units. What I'd actually like to hopefully have help with here is how to beat a Gk army specifically with psyker units in transports in a refused flank with the strong flanking units being a land raider carrying coteaz and grey knights along with a few nemesis dreadknights. Previously I haven't had epidemius but more of a strong nurgle centered list and i've had a lot of trouble trying to break his lines. His flankers really tear up my assault units while my other units holding objectives get hammered by psychic blasts. Is there any strategy I could use (rhino rushing straight up the middle??) that can stop this. He won't always be using this type of list and if there is any counters you guys have to GK's i'd really appreciate hearing about them.

 

Apart from that i'd like to hear what armies give you the biggest pause going into tournament games.

[compgeek1602]

Well, it honestly sounds like you need more long range firepower. From what you're saying, he has no psyfleman dreds if he's running double dreadknights and a lander raider. Also, he can't have more than about ten vehicles in that list, from how it sounds anyway. If that's the case, you need to destroy his mobility, as that is his greatest strength in this kind of list. I would suggest double havoc squads with missile launchers and a forgefiend for heavy support, along with small 5-man nurgle biker squads with two melta guns and nothing else, and a heldrake. Now you will have speed, power, and tons of shooting to get those vehicles shut down. Also, to play merry hell with his sorcery, you need a psyker, as he denies the witch on a 4+ for powers targeted against his squad. I'd honestly do double sorcerers, but I don't know you play double FOC. This is what I would run against that:

 

Lord w/ MoN, SoC, PS

Sorcerer w/ Palanquin, MoN, SoC, Familiar, PS, Lvl3

 

3x 7 Plagues w/ 2MG, PA, VotLW

 

Heldrake

2x 4 Bikers w/ MoN, 2MG

 

2x 5 Havocs w/ 4ML, MoN

Forgefiend

 

Essentially, kill those flankers ASAP. Take it out with all that shooting you have, and the rest is easy. Those henchmen squads are garbage without support, and you just took it away by annihilating his flank. Your sorcerer will be there to mess with his sorcerers, so take two nurgle powers to increase your odds of getting the gift of disease one, which will allow you to put Gets Hot on units, along with strength and toughness modifiers, and take away attacks from him, neutering his flankers, if they somehow manage to weather your storm of heavy support. Nurgle's rot will also help in this instance, actually, as he has mostly models with 5+ saves, which are utterly devastated by Nurgle's rot.

 

Edit: Minor verb-tense agreement corrections

[brindley]

Ohhhh that just gave me an idea, would i ever be able to target NDK's with that spell?? Reducing their S and T by 1 would be awesome! Then once the squad comes out I can target them with powers. Due to the lowish points level and hopefully sticking to a tally list, what if I had typhus?! My main problem fielding him has always been that he's slow, but if I go straight up the field i'm bound to get there eventually haha. That way I could avoid 2 hq's while keeping epi, and having zombies which would be great for having either 2 squads of 10 for home objectives or throwing up the field in a blob of 20. probably at the back due to my plague marines needing to be at the front. Since I would be missing the BBoS i could potentially lose some early kills though :(

 

Do you think a unit of 3 nurgle bikers with 2 meltaguns is worth it?

 

It's not that I hate taking sorcerers at all, I just wish I had more points available! As it is mass plague marines should hopefully make him have a lot of trouble :D, definitely going to try making a list with a psyker in it.

[compgeek1602]

Absolutely. It has a toughness value, you can do it. Also, that spell is available in biomancy, which you can also take on a sorcerer, so you have pretty good chances of getting it.

 

I would go with 4 bikers, for the extra ablative wounds, but the cool thing is, if your opponent dedicates shooting to kill that unit, he just wasted a stupid amount of AT fire on something that cost you less than 150 points. That's the name of the game right there, my friend. Typhus isn't bad, he's actually really, really good, in all honesty, but he has the worst warlord trait of all time, and sorcerers can be a level higher. For less points you can have a sorcerer with a higher level, more wounds, and a spell familiar, which I cannot stress enough how much you want that. Eldar have this nasty little thing that makes you roll three dice and take the higher for psychic tests, and my buddy plays eldar all the time. I've haven't failed a psychic test yet, because I get to re-roll. And I've had to on multiple occasions because of his little 3D6 thingy. That thing is just too good to pass up, and typhus doesn't get one.

 

How many points do you usually play?

[brindley]

the lists are 1750.

 

The big problem will be trying to get 20 kills by turn two though. that's why I might avoid typhus and go without magic, im gonna try both lists and see what i like the feel of more.

[Watcher]

Wwell seeing as i think you are useing a nurgle list (hopefully for chaos marines) id say Obliterrators can be a huge help but the best way i found killing Coteaz with was by mobbing him and a 5 man Gk termie retinue with heavy weapons fire from my Long Fangs ,as for the dreadknights its more difficult because i do believe its a walker with normal intiatave when useing doomfists an all that so your best chance would probally be meltabombs as hard as that sounds. Your best bet is taking out his transport ability,do that and you might be able to grant another turn of shooting for yourself while hes walkin across the board.

[compgeek1602]

It has a toughness value, so it can be affected by spells that modify toughness. that's all there is to that. our sorcerers are way too amazing to not take, but to each his own. I've run the tally list before, and three nurgle havoc teams are a MUST in that kind of list. each kill one of those teams gets counts, because it's a kill by a model with the mark of nurgle. that's the way to go to get those 20 kills as fast as humanly possible.

[Lanfear]

last week i played vs. Orcs with 3x 3 killabots, one gargbot, 2 battlewagons with 20 boys each, 2squads of lootaz, Ork Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun and a Zzap Gun.... 2000 Points match. I had typhus, terminators with mark, 3 melta-terminators, two squads of plaque marines, one with melta, the otehr with plasma. 2x two nurgle obliterators, 2 blight drones and a demon Prince with mace. He tabled me in turn 3. i had no chance.

[Chaeron]

In the prior edition, Grey Knights were just too tough for us in the majority of cases, irrespective of scenario. I think now it's changed slightly - there are few armies I would outright say "trouble" me, as it depends on the list, the player and the other variables that then kick in.

[compgeek1602]

@lanfear- I think we would need more info to see why exactly you got crushed. I tried putting your list together in army builder, just to see what I was looking at, and I ended up with 1875, which obviously can't be right. Did you have wings on the daemon prince? how many plagues were in those squads, and did the champs have any upgrades?

 

However, right off the bat, I can say without a doubt that you don't have enough troops, and, although you do have oblits, you need more heavy support. Unless perhaps typhus was riding in a LR? However, it doesn't sound like he was from what you're saying. The little three-man termie squad is a waste. You would have been better off with mutilators, honestly. Same price, but nastier. Two of them cost less than three, and have more wounds and more attacks. Havocs or a forgefiend need to be in this list, at a minimum. Those killer kans are really, really nasty, and combined with that many lootas, you were just plain out-gunned. I would say that you should add a squad of havocs in, or a forgefiend. either one would help you immensely here. A couple deep striking mutilators to take care of the lootas, combined with a couple havoc teams to take out the killer kans before they could even get you in range, plus three squads of plagues with melta to take out those battlewagons, and you would have been a lot better off, in my opinion at any rate. My buddy plays orks, and he loves to take three squads of 15 lootas. the only way I've ever been able to beat him is havocs with autocannons and a heldrake. that combo will shred his heavy support. Also, I run Warp Talons to deep strike on top of heavy support choices like that. they have a very hard time killing them, and they rip through stuff like lootas and devastators.

 

Here's a rough idea:

DP of Nurgle w/ Wings, power armor, black mace, lvl1

Chaos Lord w/ MoN, PA, Sigil of Corruption, Palanquin, VotLW, Blight Grenades

 

6 Termies w/ MoN, VotLW, 2PA, 2LC, 2CM, 1PF, RAC, champ w/ LC's

 

3x 7 Plagues w/ 2M

 

Heldrake w/ Baleflamer

 

5 Havocs w/ 4AC, MoN

3 Oblits w/ MoN

[Plaguecaster]

I find I usually always lose against those damn Necrons curse their crazy Xenos shenanigans sure most of the time I maul most of their armies as my maxed out bio/ nurgle Sorcerer (which they accuse of being totally op and broken) just chews through anything he gets near, both the 2 Necron players at my club solely make their list so it decimates plague marines going insane amounts of scarabs, destroyers, warriors with resurrection orb lords with monoliths teleporting that damn c'tan with that time rule which removes models if I fail a test flying around the board. Apart from Necrons I don't really struggle against any other army (sisters come close though it is evenly matched when I vs that player) I find GK to be the easiest army to vs as I usually always manage to wipe it out completely which kind gets revenge against one of the Necron players as he basically plays all SW armies as well as Necrons (apart from CSM)

 

When I vs GK I just go all plague marines with defiler, havocs, Typhus and a very expensive super Nurgle sorcerer with murder sword so far never lost against them

[Lanfear]

@lanfear-[..]

 

thanks for your feedback!

 

you are right, prince had wings, armor and gift (as it is the only way he can get a roll on that table). the two blight drones did a good job, but were taken out quickly due the high ammount of shots. it simply does not matter that he had no special air defence as his large model count generates more than enough attacks to compensate.

 

My Plaque Marines come with either 2 Melta or Plasma, Rhino and Champ with Fist and Combiweapon of the same type as the 7 men unit for 265 and 275 points.

After the game i realized that allowing him to play the double FOC with his 6 support choices broke my neck. the shooting power of his combined stuff while myself having a major part of my army in reserve was a bad idea. in round two my obliterators were dust, his force rolled to my deployment zone and i only scratched his little cybots, not enough to even mention it. the throw away termis failed their shots (2 misses, and double one for armour penetration) and typhus with his homies came when the game was already finished.

 

if i had another army composition, it would have been a completly different game.

General with mark and melta bomb; Prince with amour, wings, gift and mace. 2 squads 7 plague marines with 2 melta and fist, one Rhino. 2x2 blightdrones, 2x2 nurgle obliterators, 3 squads of 4x AC Havocs. still 2000p but bringing the hurt.

[compgeek1602]

That second list is definitely way better, but still entirely too light on troops. I'd find a way to fit another squad of plagues. only having two at 2000 points is just asking to get hurt.

 

Also, You said his sheer number of shots got you, but I just thought I'd point out that as a flying MC with shrouded, you get a 3+ jink save vs all shots..... on top of his only hitting on sixes. Also, bringing a heldrake would take all the pressure off your prince, as the first time you wipe an entire squad of lootas, he'll take notice real quick :devil:

 

Do blight drones count as flyers? I've never used them, as I don't have the IA rules, so can't field them.

 

Yeah, reserves in 6th is really relegated to deep strikers and flyers. anything else has no business in reserve these days, sadly.

[John_f]

If you have IG allies you could experiment with weakens resolve and psychic shriek/pinning/terrify. Telepathy is a great lore for taking out big death star type enemies.

[brindley]

The thing I noticed about your army as well from being far too low on troops was that it suffered what I did with nurgle heavy armies. This is obviously not true in all cases, but nurgle-centered armies tend to lack a lot of punch due to being on the elite/resilient side. Epidemius counters that problem despite me not getting to use his tally yet :D... When you have 2 nemesis dreadknights and a land raider full of grey knights you may occassionally find yourself hardpressed to keep him alive with 4 s8 ap 1 templates flying at you every turn as well haha. Needless to say I still beat him after almost giving up turn two due to abysmal rolling. On my first turn I killed 3 henchmen and the second nothing at all.

 

The maxed out sorcerer seems like it might work well, can you take 3 hq's including allies?? I never noticed how good the familiar is before, hence why i've never even really considered sorcs.

[John_f]

I could use some advice agains a local tyranid player. This guy is playing lots of MCs. Two tervigons, two trygons, swarmlord, winged hive tyrant, doom in spore pod. So if I'm playing my epidemius list he simply keeps his troops in reserv and advance with the MCs. He doesn't spawn termagants. The trygon deepstrikes in the middle of my positions. He usually rolls with Iron arm and endurance, making it virtually impossible to kill these beasts. And when I try using a list with more havy weapons and tanks, he simply sits back keeping the tervigons in cover, spawning a :cussload of termagant and just overruns me.

 

Any idea on how to deal with this?

[Lanfear]

lots of Plasma?

[brindley]

I honestly cant really see how you'd have any problem with that. Plague marines would destroy his soul, even when they are being countered. For everything ignoring their saves they still have fnp. Theyve got plasma for beasties and bolters for gaunts. Blight grenades make their charging much less effective. your T5 makes gaunts suck, and pm's have 2 attacks each wounding on 4's, with rerolls against gaunts. And that's just our troops. Havocs with autocannons, which should be autoinclude for epi list, tear apart most big beasties no matter what save they try to use. And once tally starts going you just keep doing better. If he's keeping his troops in reserve his beasts should be easy to pick apart.

 

Also, if you were using a non-tally army there a lot of things we have that can really hurt beasts, like say you took a detachment of Khârn and cultists or something in a mixed list or the juggerlord would shred beasts sooo hard haha

[Azekai]

If you are using an Epi list, and he reserves his troops, that can work to your advantage (he can't claim objectives or screen his big stuff).

What does your army look like John_F? If you are allying in chaos daemons you might as well bring along a Nurlge DP- one of those with noxious touch and wings will certainly mess up/kill a few of those 'nidzillas.

[John_f]

This is what I usally run as Epi list. Sometimes I trade the DP for more bikers and a bike lord with skalatrax.

 

Chaos Tally (Chaos_Space_Marines)

HQ - 370

Chaos Lord (100)

Mark of Nurgle; Chaos bike; power armour.

 

Daemon Prince (270)

Daemon of Nurgle; Mace, wings; power armour.

 

Elites - 600

5 Plague Marines (150)

Plague Champion; 2× plasma gun.

 

5 Plague Marines (150)

Plague Champion; 2× plasma gun.

 

5 Plague Marines (150)

Plague Champion; 2× plasma gun.

 

5 Plague Marines (150)

Plague Champion; 2× plasma gun.

 

Troops - 65

10 Chaos Cultists (65)

Cultist Champion; 10× autogun; heavy stubber.

 

Fast Attack - 165

5 Chaos Bikers (165)

Chaos Biker Champion; 2× meltagun; Mark of Nurgle; Veterans of the Long War.

 

Heavy Support - 260

5 Havocs (130)

Aspiring Champion; 4× autocannon; Mark of Nurgle.

 

5 Havocs (130)

Aspiring Champion; 4× autocannon; Mark of Nurgle.

 

Detachment: Tallyman (Chaos_Daemons)

HQ - 110

Epidemius (110)

 

Troops - 75

5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle (75)

 

Detachment: Bastion (Fortifications)

Other - 100

Aegis Defence Lines (100)

gun emplacement with quad-gun.

 

1 745 points

[brindley]

I think I see your list's problems, using the logic that I put behind my list. Atm your lord is relatively useless apart from tanking unless he has a weapon, he needs to be adding to that tally, brand is perfect for that. Your bikers dont need votlw, they are with your lord. your infantry units are all too small, allowing them to be wiped out easily and giving up a lot of kill points. Since you are using a daemon prince at such a low points level you are going to have to cut out 1 pm squad if you wanted to increase the numbers of the other units. At least one havoc unit shuld be 7 for on the quad gun, they WILL be shot at. I find 7 is barely enough even with MoN sometimes. Walking all of your squads isnt too much of a problem i guess due to rapid fire new rules but they still wont be doing much damage by turn 2 as much as they could be. Plague marines wanna get in your opponents face asap and stick there. If they charge you you kill them :)

 

You could even take out the cultists, as they arent really doing much to help the tally list. And it's a good think your opponent doesn't have a lot of heavy armour or you would be in for a world of hurt haha, unless your bikers and DP did their jobs very well. Maybe cut down 1 biker as well?

[Chaeron]

Problem is the list - I think you need to look at restructuring it for maximum effectiveness - too bitty. I like the premise though.

[SOUTHEX]

Your nurgle lord would made the P.M's troops, otherwise you only have one Troops. Stick with the 7 P.M's seems to work the best.

I also choose to include the ageis & quad gun; so cheap and so many benefits.

[Lanfear]

*************** 1 HQ + 1 Verbündeter ***************

 

Typhus

- - - > 230 Punkte

 

[Chaosdaemonen] Epidemius

- - - > 110 Punkte

 

 

*************** 5 Standard + 1 Verbündeter ***************

 

25 Chaoskultisten

+ Champion

- Maschinenpistole

- Handwaffe

- - - > 110 Punkte

 

7 Seuchenmarines

- 2 x Melter

+ Seuchenchampion

- Seuchenmesser

- Bolter

- 1 x Energiefaust

- - - > 213 Punkte

 

7 Seuchenmarines

- 2 x Melter

+ Seuchenchampion

- Seuchenmesser

- Bolter

- 1 x Energiefaust

- - - > 213 Punkte

 

7 Seuchenmarines

- 2 x Melter

+ Seuchenchampion

- Seuchenmesser

- Bolter

- 1 x Energiefaust

- - - > 213 Punkte

 

7 Seuchenmarines

- 2 x Melter

+ Seuchenchampion

- Seuchenmesser

- Bolter

- 1 x Energiefaust

- - - > 213 Punkte

 

[Chaosdaemonen] 5 Seuchenhüter des Nurgle

- - - > 75 Punkte

 

 

*************** 2 Unterstützung ***************

 

5 Havocs

- Mal des Nurgle

- 4 x Maschinenkanone

+ Upgrade zum Champion

- Boltpistole

- Handwaffe

- Bolter

- - - > 130 Punkte

 

5 Havocs

- Mal des Nurgle

- 4 x Maschinenkanone

+ Upgrade zum Champion

- Boltpistole

- Handwaffe

- Bolter

- - - > 130 Punkte

 

 

*************** 1 Befestigung ***************

 

Aegis-Verteidigungslinie

- Waffenstellung mit Vierlings-Flak

- - - > 100 Punkte

 

 

Gesamtpunkte Chaos Space Marines : 1737

 

 

deploy the aegis empty. enemy cannot shoot at it. if epidemus arrives in turn one, you charge the aegis gun emplacement with typhus and the cultists. instead of attacking, you use his ability. cultists are dead meat. from turn 2, you have the tally.

[brindley]

that was in german i think haha