henrywalker Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 So the imperium get a whole load of cool landraider variants, not just the redeemer and crusader but the helios, the promethius, the ares and the awesome looking achilles. so why dont we have any? I know that the mechanicum developed these post heresy but there is surely all sorts of cool things that chaos could have come up with. I thought of this having just finished building my mauler fiend and i saw all the spare bitz and guns. i could see those ectoplasma cannons coming out of the sides of a land raider for one. also a landraider possessed to the point of being a daemon engine would be a pretty awesome model and unit. i could imagine the front doors being big jaws. surely there could be some awesome things we could do, anyone got a home grown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 It's because GW has an unhealthy obsession with loyalists, and remember we are chaos marines, and everyone knows that chaos=RANDOM!/USELESS EQUIPMENT! and that our real purpose is to be slaughtered in droves by the valiant heroes, because that's what little kids like right, for the unstoppable heros to slay the evil spiky villains with ease :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darknightdrako Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Also chaos is poor hence why they get the old equipment but we are also jerks so we can use loyalist codices for our chaos armies haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 There's absolutely no good reason that chaois land raiders shouldn't have been modified by the dark mechanicum (who actively invent things, unlike their loyalist counterparts who have a slew of superstitions about doing that) and on top of that, the CSM codex needed a good asault vehicle more than anything, but for some reason we're still stuck with the half-functional rustbucket version of the least useful raider variant. It doesn't seem like a good call on GW's part, because they could easily have made a new chaos LR kit with options and people would have bought them in droves if there were decent configurations. It's honestly quite mystifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 A varient with a higher transport capacity would have been a nice gesture ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Lack of new land raider variant never really bothered me. Lack of POTMS is a huge piss off though. Loyalists I thought were supposed to get the better technology (which is why they have speeders etc...), while Chaos are supposed to be though, veteran infantry with outlandish abilities. Unfortunately chaos infantry is also garbage in new codex/edition compared to loyalist infantry so... Out of stuff that should have been included / dosen't make sense, no new land raider variant isn't high on the annoyance list. - why restriction on only 4 heavy weapons in havoc squads (chaos marines wouldn't care about codex squad set ups). - why only 2 special weapons in 20 man units? - why champions of chaos (honorable, must accept challenges to look good in the eyes of the gods), but no ATSKNF/fearless morale buff (flee like little girls, even though they are supposedly dread champions of khorne with peerles martial honour etc...)? Marks should have provided ATSKNF or fearless. Why is faith in the dark gods worse than faith in the emperor? - why no drop pods / dread claws, when it is clearly established in the fluff that they actually have this equipment (unlike new land raider variants)? - why no option for storm bolters / multi-metla/ assault cannon in lieu of combi-bolter/autocannon/reaper to reflect new rengades (like corsairs)? Where do chapters that have recently converted to chaos find all this heresy era tech (huron would have made a better addition to the loyalist special character inventory, their list in general makes way more sense for him)? - why no cult terminators / chosen/ heavy choices? -why no battle brother ally with guard? Some other form of assault vehicle (maybe flying transport?) would have been nice though. Option to upgrade existing vehicles to have deamonic weaponry (instead of stupid possession rules) would have been nice too (ectoplasma predators, or hades autocannon raiders, sonics?). In otherwords the chaos codex is already full of dumb stuff when looking at established fluff, I think whining about no transport patter land raider is more of a result of wanting better units / rules than making the codex fall more inline with fluff expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montuhotep Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 A varient with a higher transport capacity would have been a nice gesture ;) If you want to pay the points for it and FW stuff is allowed, you can always use a Spartan...... Granted, it's not as optimised as the Crusader for assault in terms of weapons, but that many bodies flying out of it is pretty nasty. Though I confess that I'm not sure why Chaos don't have a PotMS of it's own - you think we could get a minor daemon to do the same thing! Unfortunately chaos infantry is also garbage in new codex/edition compared to loyalist infantry so... Really? The only thing we miss from a straight comparison with a Tactical squad is the Combat Squads rule - we can carry 2 special weapons which tactically makes more sense than hoiking around a heavy weapon. Or we can do the Heavy/Special route if preferred. Plus we can get 2 CCW's which Loyalist Tacticals can't. I grant you that the lack of ATSKNF is rather odd, given the fact that our lads see scarier stuff even when they're not in a scrap, but it was pointed out to me that CSM are all about themselves and don't so much care about their mates. Also, veteran troopers are more likely to know when it's more sensible to cut and run compared to a load of slick-sleeved new guys (in terms of service time) out to impress people with how fearless they are even whilst bricking it. Seems entirely sensible when you look at it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 hmm... the traitor legions were the best equipped legions of their time, most of mars' database was corrupted or destroyed during the heresy, the fabricator general kelbor-hal and fully 50% of the mechanicum turned over to horus because the emperor forbid creativity and scientific advancment and the imperium became a faschist theocracy everafter, thinking of technology as magic and sorcery ...actually, chaos should have BETTER tech than loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Eh, outside of some of the legions that may have stuck together, I'm not sure how much of that tech would actually have been maintained for the last 10k years. Also not sure how easy it would be to resupply in the eye of terror. Would deamon worlds have the resources required churn out high level archeotech from the DM en masse? While I understand heresy era tech is better, my understanding is that chaos having worse technology is due to attrition (wouldn't have much of the good stuff left). Fractured warbands of different crap that GW is trying to sell us on now, I could see why they wouldn't have huge stockpiles of fell blades / spartans / conversion beamers, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 But shouldn't they have piles of assault and plasma cannon, land speeders ect that they too when they turned/stole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Dark mechanicum presence was upped in the new book with warpsmiths & new daemon engines, but what really would have emphaized that aspect better would have been outlandish daemontech weapons, wargear, and vehicle upgrades, and that's all still lacking. Even on the new dark mech stuff, the warpsmith comes with tendrils, but other then that there's a real lack of weird technogear for them. New land raider variants or alternative transport options could not only serve to emphasize this point, but could also plug a very sizable and very painful gap in our army book under 6th edition. With the changes to transport rules, infantry assault units, already hammered by a dozen other nerfs, and already suffering from being second rate even back in 5th edition, simply do not function without good assault transports. That we're supposedly an assault leaning codex yet lack such options is ridiculous, and it all but kills possessed and berzerkers in particular as functional units. A new mark of daemon engine tank with a dedicated assault transport build (100ish points, 12/12/10, capacity 12, assault ramp, frag launcher, possession, daemon, it will not die, sponson H. Flamers, daemonforge) and a cannon build (think daemonic vindicator, possibly replacing the regular vindicator in the army list the way 'helbrutes' replaced 'dreadnoughts') would have done as much as the fiends to build up the dark mech angle while also filling a key whole in the army list. An upscaled land raider variant would also be nice. Our land raider is just the worst loyalist variant, with the half way interesting bits scooped out and nothing in its place. Where's the chaos in it? Where the 10,000 years in the eye of terror, with years of damage and improvised battlefield repairs? Where's the mad experimentation of deranged warpsmiths free from any sense of respect or restraint? All it is is a painfully dull, painfully small, painfully overpriced box? Chaos doesn't "draw in the lines", chaos doesn't care about sanctioned marks. Our land raider entry should have been a stripped down chassis with capacity 16, choice of a variety of guns for the hull mount (including new daemonforge tech like the ectoplasma), and the option to trade the extra 6 points of transport capacity for a variety of sponson options. Instead of having half a dozen discrete variants, our warpsmiths would be free to outfit their tanks however they liked, replacing destroyed weaponry with whatever guns they had available, similar to how loyalists have different predator variants, and we just have one 'predator' entry and can stick what guns we like on it (though even there a couple more unique chaos gun options would have been nice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Really? The only thing we miss from a straight comparison with a Tactical squad is the Combat Squads rule - we can carry 2 special weapons which tactically makes more sense than hoiking around a heavy weapon. Or we can do the Heavy/Special route if preferred. Plus we can get 2 CCW's which Loyalist Tacticals can't. your comparing to the wrong sort of good marine , the only thing tacs are good at is hiding . SW ATKNF 2 specials , counter attack[we get that through and icon] , hidden ax[we cant get that] , MoTW[we cant get that] , build in ultra grit[we have to pay] and their own chaos icon[aka the wolf totem]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montuhotep Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I was using the Tactical squad for an example because they are the bulk of Marine forces in a Codex army as a squad of base CSM are ours; if you want to compare our base troops to a more specialised version thereof then I'm not going to stop you! :unsure: Personally I prefer using what I get rather than wistfully wishing for stuff that I don't. This is what we have, like it or not, but you have your opinions, I have mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Personally I prefer using what I get rather than wistfully wishing for stuff that I don't. This is what we have, like it or not, but you have your opinions, I have mine. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but that sort of attitude is not really conducive to the discussion at hand. I think a daemonic bale-flamer equipped Landraider would be the bees knees, a dark version of the Redeemer . . . ours can even lack PoTMS, just to make it fair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Really? The only thing we miss from a straight comparison with a Tactical squad is the Combat Squads rule - we can carry 2 special weapons which tactically makes more sense than hoiking around a heavy weapon. Or we can do the Heavy/Special route if preferred. Plus we can get 2 CCW's which Loyalist Tacticals can't. your comparing to the wrong sort of good marine , the only thing tacs are good at is hiding . SW ATKNF 2 specials , counter attack[we get that through and icon] , hidden ax[we cant get that] , MoTW[we cant get that] , build in ultra grit[we have to pay] and their own chaos icon[aka the wolf totem]. I disagree, GH have been stated several times are overpowered for what they are. On the Land Raider front. Wouldn't a simple variant that would have been easy to put in be one with Hades Cannons or Ecto plasma cannons instead of Lascannons and Heavy Bolters. Keeps a theme going. Or a one with blast weaponry (like multi havoc launchers or something). Just yeah... no land raiders make us sad faced Iron Warriors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Again, I don't think the answer is more variants, I think the correct answer would have been to just let the chaos land raider entry have options. Again, like loyalists have two different types of predator, where as we just have one 'predator' entry that can be built with whichever guns into whatever version it is that we want, which covers more options with fewer list entries, and also captures the feel of a vehicle that's been campaigning through the warp for thousands of years, with damaged guns replaced by whatever the faction's smith had available instead of strictly following some instruction manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 CSM with 2 plasmas is 170 Tac squad with plasma/melta is 180 Tac squad has combat tactics, combat squads, and ATSKNF, which I think are worth more than the 10 point discrepancy between the units, considering how stupidly good ATSKNF is in this edition (even if CSM rally, they get to snap shot only, so they are also crippled for a turn). GH are just better than CSM hands down. GK strikes are also I think more versatile/cost effective than CSM. BA have tac squads, which have the points above, plus they can get assault marines which are decent too with discount on fast rhino and double specials. So worse infantry than SW, GK, C:SM, and C:BA - that's basically all the other worthwhile marine codexes. Basically CSM have no real replacement for ATSKNF to offset its loss, and are not discounted by enough points (after you factor in the obligatory weapon upgrades) to make up for it. Cultist are also basically crappy guardsmen (that all other marine factions are battle brother with and so can ATSKNF share), but that's another discussion. Also, where is the concept that chaos is an assault based army coming from? What unit in the last two codexes would possibly make you think that chaos is an assault oriented army list? Berzerkers used to be decent points efficiency in assault, but were never really top tier (same with DP). Killing was made with oblits for the most part. All the chaos assault 'specialists' (posessed, terminators, mutilators, warp talons, berzerkers, chosen) are so underwhelming that their use over their generic (raptor / bike / CSM) equivalents, or in the case of terminators/ chosen, are better off as a suicide ranged attack unit with spammed specials. All chaos really has going for them in the assault department are the characters, which don't need an assault vehicle since they can just get a bike and join some ablative wounds anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 @Agent Purple: I want you to know that you have filled me with such hope for the future that I'm going to build a CC-Assault list with the Chaos Codex and dedicate every win to you. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Try rolling 9 mutilators in land raiders bro. Can't buy more than squads of three so I guess no extended transport capacity isn't a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Try rolling 9 mutilators in land raiders bro. Can't buy more than squads of three so I guess no extended transport capacity isn't a problem... It's like taking a pasta ladle to a gun fight . . . :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Also, where is the concept that chaos is an assault based army coming from? What unit in the last two codexes would possibly make you think that chaos is an assault oriented army list? Under CSM 3.5, assault was quite viable. Berserkers got the Khornate chainaxe that meant you could use them to maul Terminators, Raptors had Hit & Run, Possessed could be turned into even deadlier versions of Warp Talons. . .the list goes on and on. Under CSM 5.0 (the "Gavdex"), the basic CSM's bolter, bolt pistol and CCW loadout made them pretty nasty, especially when compared to Codex SM Tactical Marines, but only by virtue of sheer number of attacks. In CSM 6.0, our current Codex, it's like they tried to make us assault-oriented without giving us anything like 3.5 to make us so, then nerfing the only thing the Gavdex got right to remove even that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonhand Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 They dont get Forgefiend Maulerfiend Defiler. Im ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronotonic Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 It just sucks a bit.. Like stated up there chaos is not bound by rules... A land raider with atleast assault launchers would be nice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 They dont get Forgefiend Maulerfiend Defiler. I will trade land raider variants with Forgefien and Maulerfiend anyday. I won't miss them. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 They dont get Forgefiend Maulerfiend Defiler. I will trade land raider variants with Forgefien and Maulerfiend anyday. I won't miss them. :P I'd trade them for non crippled Aspiring Sorcerers, or perhaps a cheap 50/60 ish pts thing that can actually damage stuff without having to pay near 100pts, you know, like a land speeder... A smaller flier. For Tzeentch sorcerers not to be the worst in game, again, land raider and predator varients. some kind of artillery thing like a thunderfire or whirlwind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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