Chaos Landraider variants

[Sangneur]

Lack of new land raider variant never really bothered me. Lack of POTMS is a huge piss off though. Loyalists I thought were supposed to get the better technology (which is why they have speeders etc...), while Chaos are supposed to be though, veteran infantry with outlandish abilities.

 

Unfortunately chaos infantry is also garbage in new codex/edition compared to loyalist infantry so...

 

Out of stuff that should have been included / dosen't make sense, no new land raider variant isn't high on the annoyance list.

- why restriction on only 4 heavy weapons in havoc squads (chaos marines wouldn't care about codex squad set ups).

- why only 2 special weapons in 20 man units?

- why champions of chaos (honorable, must accept challenges to look good in the eyes of the gods), but no ATSKNF/fearless morale buff (flee like little girls, even though they are supposedly dread champions of khorne with peerles martial honour etc...)? Marks should have provided ATSKNF or fearless. Why is faith in the dark gods worse than faith in the emperor?

- why no drop pods / dread claws, when it is clearly established in the fluff that they actually have this equipment (unlike new land raider variants)?

- why no option for storm bolters / multi-metla/ assault cannon in lieu of combi-bolter/autocannon/reaper to reflect new rengades (like corsairs)? Where do chapters that have recently converted to chaos find all this heresy era tech (huron would have made a better addition to the loyalist special character inventory, their list in general makes way more sense for him)?

- why no cult terminators / chosen/ heavy choices?

 

-why no battle brother ally with guard?

 

Some other form of assault vehicle (maybe flying transport?) would have been nice though. Option to upgrade existing vehicles to have deamonic weaponry (instead of stupid possession rules) would have been nice too (ectoplasma predators, or hades autocannon raiders, sonics?).

 

In otherwords the chaos codex is already full of dumb stuff when looking at established fluff, I think whining about no transport patter land raider is more of a result of wanting better units / rules than making the codex fall more inline with fluff expectations.

 

You had me at 'Purple', Agent. :3

 

But seriously, what you said, though I don't really agree with the guard thing. But I absolute adore the no current tech thing. Everyone I tell about it, wargamer or not, laughs out loud when I explain the idea of these men digging up 10,000 old artifacts as soon as they change allegiance. It's just that absurd on many levels. I kind of wish we had a fanboy write our book. On one hand we'd have some broken stuff, and one army variant would probably stand head and shoulders over the others, but we wouldn't have to deal with these oversights.

 

Also the Psychic stuff sucks in this book.

[Iron_Within]

I think we can just safely say the general consensus is that it is a very lazy book with little effort

[Sinners Red]

I wouldn't say very lazy... but it just returns to issue of one codex for such a large grouping of legions/warbands/renegades/corsairs. NOT THAT I WANT TO TURN IT INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT AT ALL. SERIOUSLY.

[Paradigm]

Just saying, Reaper AC Sponsons, 16 man troop cap, 220-230 points. Option for Plasma Cannon Sponsons (Ectoplasma Cannon sponsons would work too) at reduced cap for the same price. Fixes a lot of issues. Give it something similar to POTMS (aka: Infernal Machine) and we are set. Easy to do and the model is mostly unchanged. If any GW designers see this, HINT HINT HINT.

[Antarius]

Sadly, the only way we'll ever see an useful Chaos LR is if GW releases a new kit...

I don't know about that. Have you seen the rules for Mutilators?

 

Anyway, the Chaos Land Raider is the only true tragedy of the codex for me. I can see not having POTMS and just getting a discount instead. In fact I think I like that idea. The thing is, it'd have to be a 100 point discount or so, because 230 points is a hell of a lot to pay for what is essentially an assault vehicle OR a single t-l lascannon (seriously, how often can a land raider shoot both sponsons at the same target?).

 

I mean, in my corpse-god worshipping armies I tend to buy a LR and while I always feel a bit sad about how expensive it is, it's really an OK investment. Take away POTMS though and you're way into "display model" territory.

[the jeske]

(seriously, how often can a land raider shoot both sponsons at the same target?).

well if your using the LR as a bunker or for late objective grabing turn 3-4 then it can shot a few times.

[Nehekhare]

I kind of wish we had a fanboy write our book.

 

but we had...only that kelly is an ELDAR fanboy...that is why slaanesh icon options/weaponry/psychic powers are so much better than what others get (exept the axe of khorne maybe...but that at least makes the champ lower in weapon skill than his slaanesh counterpart :tu:)

[Sception]

I kind of wish we had a fanboy write our book.

 

but we had...only that kelly is an ELDAR fanboy...that is why slaanesh icon options/weaponry/psychic powers are so much better than what others get (exept the axe of khorne maybe...but that at least makes the champ lower in weapon skill than his slaanesh counterpart :tu:)

 

I don't know. The sonics are kind of meh, and super expensive. Noise Marines seem better when you just pretend they're generic CSMs that trade plasma for fearless. Not that that's all that great, either.

[Antarius]

(seriously, how often can a land raider shoot both sponsons at the same target?).

well if your using the LR as a bunker or for late objective grabing turn 3-4 then it can shot a few times.

Yeah. I was thinking more along the lines of how it's difficult to actually be able to shoot both sponsons at the same target. POTMS is great because it allows you to split fire when you can't shoot at the same target with both Lascannons (and always get to fire one, ofc).

[the jeske]

well he couldnt make NM better then the new eldar . the new dark reapers are salvo now .

[Sception]

Malisteen's Ideal chaos land raider:

 

220ish points, hull mounted twin heavy bolters, can opt to upgrade to reaper or multimelta (free), or hades or ectoplasma (+20ish points). Transport capacity 16.

 

For free can take sponson reapers or TL heavy flamers (reduce capacity to 14), multi meltas or TL lascannons (reduce capacity to 12), hades or ectoplasma (reduce capacity to 10).

 

Maybe increased base cost with some rule for an insane or possessed version of the machine spirit. Perhaps as regular spirit, but it chooses which weapon it wants to fire at random? Or something similar to the dreadnought's 'if you hurt me, I go nuts' table?

[Noctus Cornix]

My faith in chaos is slowly waning....

[Sception]

Noct, no! I need your inexhaustible optimism to counteract my unrelenting negativity! You're my rock, Noct! You complete me!

 

 

In an attempt to raise your spirits, I have gone through the FW site looking for Land Raider variants which they have deigned to make available to chaos. Here's what I've come up with so far:

 

Armored Proteus: experimental rules found here. Reduced transport capacity, still stuck with the sponson las (although the hull TLHB is optional). However, it has PotMS, Scout, & a reserves manipulation rule that can either give the opponent a -1, or let you re-roll your own reserve rolls, getting your drakes in on the second turn more reliably, & even potentially delaying deep striking termies, mutes, & oblits, if you're trying to find some way to use the key. The Proteus isn't a dedicated transport, but it is an Elites choice instead of a Heavy, so the slot use is reasonably forgiving in our codex. Unfortunately, it's also not an assault vehicle, so I'm not sure if it's really what we're looking for in a Land Raider variant - but it's there.

 

Regular Proteus. As far as I know, the same tank. I'm not seeing anything different in its rules

 

Spartan Assault Tank: rules can be found here. An oversized land raider, this thing costs nearly 300 points and a precious heavy support choice, so it's probably for 2k+ games only. The chaos spartan lacks PotMS, at no discount in points and with nothing in return when compared to its imperial counterpart. It also loses the imperial versions options for frag launchers, and instead has the option to take... havoc launchers. Or daemonic possession. Red Corsairs playing the Tyrant list from IA9 can run the Imperial version. Huron gets all the best toys these days, doesn't he? And even the Chaos version is still an AV14, 5HP assault tank with transport capacity 25, and unlike most loyalists, we actually have units outside of terminators that can run large enough to make use of most of that extra space.

 

Note that the standard model for the Spartan is larger than a land raider, and depending on your WYSIWYG feelings, if you're not buying the actual model, you might want to convert something larger. My local GW store manager converted a plus-sized tank by smashing together a land raider and a baneblade that he uses as a Chaos Spartan. I haven't seen it in play to comment, though.

 

 

There are some other Land Raider variants or land raideresque tanks on the FW sight which might be available to chaos, but don't have rules posted. The Typhon Heavy Seige Tank in particular might be available to chaos, as it has similar origins to the Spartan.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if the above are at all good tanks. I haven't had any time to play with them, or really think about them even, I just threw them up right now as I looked at them. I'm not as good at swift appraisals as, say, Jeske anyway (btw, would love your input on these, J). They're certainly available to Loyalists as well, better versions, too, so they're nothing cool or special just for chaos. But they are options, as legal as any other FW 40k approved options. The Spartan gives us an added capacity transport, though at a painful price, and the Proteus gives us some reserves manipulation, and an option for an AV14 tank in an elites slot.

[Azekai]

Ooh, I would dearly love a chaos proteus . . . that old rogue trader style is lovely.

[Sception]

I'm not exactly sure how one would go about using it, though. With only 8 capacity and no assault ramp, what would you put in it? Four plasma terminators? Some plasma chosen? A trio of Nurgle oblits, maybe with a brand toting HQ? Or just run it empty as an AV14 gun platform?

 

And how would you plan on making use of its reserve rules? Just as disruption, or do you think in an army where you're already burning 250 points on a tank that you would still have enough points for a bunch of reserves? Maybe a couple drakes? I'm not sure.

 

I'm not passing judgment, I'm just not sure how exactly I would use one if I had it.

 

Also, I rather expect that in its finalized rules, we won't keep the PotMS. Just judging by other tanks.

[Ammonius]

The Chaos Spartan is on my list of "If we ever work our way up to 2000+ or Apocalypse sized battles on a regular basis" purchases. Running it in the shadow of my superheavies might allow it to get close enough to deliver it's payload.

 

Man, that Typhon though. No idea what the Dreadhammer does, but the model makes me tingly.

[Azekai]

'm not exactly sure how one would go about using it, though. With only 8 capacity and no assault ramp, what would you put in it? Four plasma terminators? Some plasma chosen? A trio of Nurgle oblits, maybe with a brand toting HQ? Or just run it empty as an AV14 gun platform?

 

And how would you plan on making use of its reserve rules? Just as disruption, or do you think in an army where you're already burning 250 points on a tank that you would still have enough points for a bunch of reserves? May a couple drakes? I'm not sure.

 

I'm not passing judgment, I'm just not sure how exactly I would use one if I had it.

 

Also, I rather expect that in its finalized rules, we won't keep the PotMS. Just judging by other tanks.

Haha, no idea- our 'raiders are pretty terrible (I don't own one and I have never been in a situation where I wish I had). But aesthetically speaking, it's gorgeous . . . just needs a few corpses impaled on the hull.

[Sception]

The main problem I have reading the descriptions of these tanks - and most of the FW tanks really, is the fluff. Most of them are some version of "so and so decided they wanted a tank that did such and such, and so the whichever tank was redesigned into the whatever pattern", and, at least to me, that isn't how 40k technology is supposed to work, even in the Heresy era (although that same story is repeated in 'modern' era FW stuff as well). Imperial & martian techs aren't supposed to know how their technology works, and are supposed to worship and revere their designs and not stray from them, right? Like, it's a big deal when they discover new STC patterns in ancient human ruins, because it allows them to make a new kind or new pattern of vehicle, they don't know how to do that stuff on their own. Imperial tech that chaos doesn't have was supposed to be because the patterns hadn't been rediscovered at the time of the heresy, not because they hadn't been 'invented' yet - the Imperium just isn't supposed to do 'inventing', I thought.

 

Guess I thought wrong, though, because according to this canon FW stuff, the mechanicus is inventing new stuff and designing new vehicle patterns all the time.

 

 

But that's kind of tangential to the topic on hand, which is more about whether Chaos has or should have any worthwhile land raider variants, and what a worthwhile chaos landraider would look like, and when early humans first migrated across the land bridge from Asia to the Americas, and what booze they drank along the way, and when exactly Noct and I will set a date for the wedding, and whether it will be cancelled when Whythre tells noct about my tryst with Rain on the side.

 

tune in for the answers to these questions and more, next time on "As the Eye Turns".

[the jeske]

if your paying 300pts for a transport isnt it better to get the castus . a flyer , ultra melta weapon , melta immunity > then any other transort that cost.

[Sception]

You mean the Caestus? Can chaos take that now? Where are its final rules? How much has it changed since the experimental rules? If it's a flier now and still AV13, I don't think I could run it in good conscience, at least not in non-APO games, where as I could see myself running a spartan in 2400ish point non-APO games. If its transport rules haven't changed, than it also has a lower transport capacity (only slightly lower for terminators, though, since they don't take up two spaces in it for some reason?)

[Brother Amarel]

You mean the Caestus? Can chaos take that now? Where are its final rules? How much has it changed since the experimental rules? If it's a flier now and still AV13, I don't think I could run it in good conscience, at least not in non-APO games, where as I could see myself running a spartan in 2400ish point non-APO games. If its transport rules haven't changed, than it also has a lower transport capacity (only slightly lower for terminators, though, since they don't take up two spaces in it for some reason?)

It's in HH: Betrayal. It's roughly the same (less weapon options) but a Flyer now and around a third again more expensive.

[Sception]

Yeah, I don't think I could bring myself to run an AV13 flier.

[Noctus Cornix]

Noct, no! I need your inexhaustible optimism to counteract my unrelenting negativity! You're my rock, Noct! You complete me!

 

I'm sorry but I can't take much more of this, Mal... Don't get me wrong, I love the 6th edition codex and I will defend it with my dying breath.... But all this negativity is really getting to me...

 

My Black Templars are starting to look awfully pretty again...

[Brother Ambroz]

As a chaos player isn't negativity sort of in the gamer description?? :P

 

The landraider thing was the first thing that I noticed in our new codex. Every other single land raider has at least a capacity of 12 - except for chaos! Seriously? What the :) GW?

 

My only hope is someday we'll get a shiny, spiky and brand new raider from FW one day... We can always dream right???

[Sception]

My Black Templars are starting to look awfully pretty again...

Go for it. They have crusaders, hordes that don't run away at a stiff breeze, THSS termies. I mean, last I herd their FAQ had mistakenly removed their ability to field drop pods, but I don't think you'll find many players anal enough to enforce that it it hasn't been fixed by now. They have more to work with and more that works, really lacking only a functional flier. Can't do straight melee like some of them want, but can mix some in with their shooting. Hidden power weapons, etc. To my knowledge BT players aren't happy right now, and depending on how their supposedly upcoming WD codex looks things might take a nose dive (loyalist marines, though, so probably not), but there's not as much wailing and gnashing of teeth with them as there is here. Which is only natural, they didn't just get a Gav style "update".

 

The landraider thing was the first thing that I noticed in our new codex. Every other single land raider has at least a capacity of 12 - except for chaos! Seriously? What the censored.gif GW?

Is that even true, though? I thought codex: ultras upped the transport cap on it, but then the later marine books lowered it back down.