Chaos Landraider variants

[Brother Ambroz]

Sorry Antarius but did you read the Gavdex? This current one is basically a copy and paste with a few additions and a few subtractions. Same old thing making most of the old "good" units (Zerks, DPs) in the Gavdex bad and turning the old "bad" units (spawn, bikers, predators etc) good.

[Kol Saresk]

Zhukov, out of curiosity, how detailed was your look through? You call the Noise Marines Troops but they are Elites unless one of two requirements are met. That's a rather big detail to miss in my opinion. Not saying everything you've said is wrong or that I disagree with it, but it doesn't seem a detailed read through would quite miss something that big.

[Antarius]

Sorry Antarius but did you read the Gavdex? This current one is basically a copy and paste with a few additions and a few subtractions. Same old thing making most of the old "good" units (Zerks, DPs) in the Gavdex bad and turning the old "bad" units (spawn, bikers, predators etc) good.

Yup. I've been onboard since 2nd ed. (it was the shiny Chaos Codex that drew me in). This one seems to me to be one of the best we've had since then.

 

In a way, I pine for the 3.5 dex, but then again I'm not sure that was really all the good a codex at the end of the day. The Legion rules were shiny but also kinda silly and restrictive when it came right down to it. The gavdex was somewhat uninspiring but it's major problem was the undercosted DPs (because come on, we all knew they were) and the lack of really good options apart from Obliterators. The combination kinda led people into feeling forced to field boring and "exploity" armies in order to be competitive.

 

At first glance our new codex has crunch that seems to keep up the problems from the gavdex, even compounding some of them. But I'd argue that in reality this isn't so at all. I'm seeing lots of viable units and armies, although we're perhaps still pigeonholed slightly towards shooting. I think we can field a strong shooting army in a shooty edition, though. I see us getting some units that we've been sorely missing and which make us both able to stand up to most armies and distinct from other Marine based forces. What dexes are we comparing ourselves with, when we say that e.g. the Daemon engines aren't up to snuff?

 

Fluff and feel-wise I think it's a huge step forward, retaining the good stuff from earlier editions with minor (but good) editions and a nice middle ground between the ZOMGLEGIONS! and WARBANDSBBQ! dexes of the past years. That's bound to be pretty subjective though.

[Kol Saresk]

No Antarius, you're wrong. The numbers don't lie! The SW-Wannabe Biker list is the only way to go man! Anything else is blasphemy! We need 3.5 back man! [/sarcasm]

 

Serious note: I don't quite feel like the only voice in the wind anymore.....

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've found Thousand sons work, it's just that at times it can be incredibly frustrating mainly due to the pts costs, or the lore of Tzeentch.

[Brother Ambroz]

Ignoring the 3.5 stuff.

 

Really again though, we've got more options for HQs, more options for FA and 1-2 more options for HS. Comparing to the Gavdex, we had 1 (maybe 2 if you count Khârn), no FA and 1-2 options for HS (havocs/oblits) but we also had 3 troop competitive troop choices as well. We do have more options in most areas but in others the old Gavdex was a little better.

 

As far as being pigeonholed to shooting, we've been supposedly engineered for close combat (the champion of chaos rules, mutation tables etc) but we've got 2-3 units that can stand up to their loyalist counterparts without getting shredded in challenges.

 

You weren't alone either Kol, you had Noctis. Not sure if he's still around now or not though...

[the jeske]

I'm seeing lots of viable units and armies, although we're perhaps still pigeonholed slightly towards shooting.

at how many points , because the closer you get to 1500 the smaller the number of build gets. But the biggest problem is that the "different" builds arent different at all. A henchman build is different from lets say a draigowing . runing spawn instead of bikers or 1 unit of oblits/long range support to run 2 drakes isnt.

 

Zhukov, out of curiosity, how detailed was your look through? You call the Noise Marines Troops but they are Elites unless one of two requirements are met. That's a rather big detail to miss in my opinion. Not saying everything you've said is wrong or that I disagree with it, but it doesn't seem a detailed read through would quite miss something that big.

why would you take NM as elites ? that is not even an option to consider.

[Ammonius]

I'm seeing lots of viable units and armies, although we're perhaps still pigeonholed slightly towards shooting.

at how many points , because the closer you get to 1500 the smaller the number of build gets. But the biggest problem is that the "different" builds arent different at all. A henchman build is different from lets say a draigowing . runing spawn instead of bikers or 1 unit of oblits/long range support to run 2 drakes isnt.

 

Zhukov, out of curiosity, how detailed was your look through? You call the Noise Marines Troops but they are Elites unless one of two requirements are met. That's a rather big detail to miss in my opinion. Not saying everything you've said is wrong or that I disagree with it, but it doesn't seem a detailed read through would quite miss something that big.

why would you take NM as elites ? that is not even an option to consider.

Maybe if you already had 6 other troop choices? Kind of a stretch though...

 

...210 cultists...900 points minimum... well, it might be possible, but it's definitely a sign of madness. ;)

[the jeske]

and you would take NM over demon ally or IG ally or plasma terminators ;) ? what is next pondering the use of dark apostols ?

[Azekai]

and you would take NM over demon ally or IG ally or plasma terminators ;) ? what is next pondering the use of dark apostols ?

Truly, we are plumbing the nethermost depths of madness . . . :lol:

[Kol Saresk]

Gee, I don't know, probably because they're already in the Elites section. Why wouldn't I think of them as Elites?

[Azekai]

Are you being intentionally obtuse, Kol, or did you not read Jeske's response? Just because NM can be fielded as elites does not mean that is a good use for them.

[Lieutenant Steel]

:( ? what is next pondering the use of dark apostles?

 

Well if I was running 210 Cultists who aren't Fearless I'm sure I'd want a bubble of Ld 10/ Fearless-ness to keep them company :D

[Kol Saresk]

Are you being intentionally obtuse, Kol, or did you not read Jeske's response? Just because NM can be fielded as elites does not mean that is a good use for them.

No I read it. I wasn't saying to use them there. I was saying that they are Elites. They are listed in the Elites section. So saying that they are Troops after saying you had a detailed read through is a rather big detail to miss. As usual, Jeske automatically assumed that everything is specifically related to competitive table turns and roundhoused on me and I said that I think they are Elites because they are in the Elite section. That is a fact. Nobody may use them as Elites, but they are Elites. They are in the Codex in the Elites section. The only times their are Troops is on an army list that has a MoS Chaos Lord or Lucius. The rest of the time, they are Elites. So the answer is neither whythre.

[Azekai]

No I read it. I wasn't saying to use them there. I was saying that they are Elites. They are listed in the Elites section. So saying that they are Troops after saying you had a detailed read through is a rather big detail to miss. As usual, Jeske automatically assumed that everything is specifically related to competitive table turns and roundhoused on me and I said that I think they are Elites because they are in the Elite section. That is a fact. Nobody may use them as Elites, but they are Elites. They are in the Codex in the Elites section. The only times their are Troops is on an army list that has a MoS Chaos Lord or Lucius. The rest of the time, they are Elites. So the answer is neither whythre.

 

I see, you are reacting to Jeske's correction. While you are technically correct, you are also nit-picking. You keep re-iterating that Zhukov listed them wrong, but given that they can occupy troop slots, pointing out that they are listed in the elites section is moot.

 

It also is not really pertinent to discussing how glorious the chaos proteus is. :( I think I shall seize a rogue trader rhino and stick land raider treads on it and make my own.

[Rain]

Only real problem with the Proteus is that it isn't an assault vehicle. So--yeah, I mean the reserves thing is nice but considering an earlier assault is the only reason I would run a LR in the first place, it kind of kills the fun a little bit. What I do wish we had access to is the Achilles, but no dice. Now a Spartan Assault Tank could be kind of nifty for filling with choppy killy Khorney goodness, but for some asinine reason our version lacks PotMS but doesn't actually cost less. Thanks GW.

[Kol Saresk]

EDIT: Nevermind. Why nitpick about being misunderstood for the third time in this thread alone. Just go back on topic of Chaos Land Raider Variants.

[Zhukov]

At the risk of sounding overly dismissive (especially since your post has a lot of points), I'm not sure we're reading the same codex here. Mine seems both good and interesting.

I just give my opinion. Maybe I bring them like they're facts, but they're obviously not, they cannot be. Some people in here who know me will probably put quite some value to my opinion, which is why I give it.

 

Zhukov, out of curiosity, how detailed was your look through? You call the Noise Marines Troops but they are Elites unless one of two requirements are met. That's a rather big detail to miss in my opinion. Not saying everything you've said is wrong or that I disagree with it, but it doesn't seem a detailed read through would quite miss something that big.

Do you think I missed that? ^^

 

So saying that they are Troops after saying you had a detailed read through is a rather big detail to miss.

You also think I missed that? ^^

 

I see, you are reacting to Jeske's correction. While you are technically correct, you are also nit-picking. You keep re-iterating that Zhukov listed them wrong, but given that they can occupy troop slots, pointing out that they are listed in the elites section is moot.

Correct. I choose to rate them as troops, as they will be taken more as troops in general.

 

Just because I could rate the strenght of the codex and its units pretty much correctly in 1 read doesn't mean I haven't read it more than once. I read the whole book from cover to cover and all the rules and entries multiple times after to see if something would change. It hasn't. Which was my point to start with.

 

Ugh, annoying to post here again after some years, forums change so quickly, seems like I don't have any credibility left here. You'd better respect my authority or I'll actually go play Chaos again and stay here, trust me you don't want that, I'm known to team up with Jeske :unsure:

[Rain]

Relax Zhukov, we all know what you meant, Kol was just being pedantic to counter your "negativity". In either case as you've probably seen, the current codex isn't really much to come back to, but if you want to hang around and give your dry tactical assessments you are of course quite welcome, even though I don't play competitively or even that much anymore it's always good to have someone that knows what they are talking about around.

[Zhukov]

Relax Zhukov, we all know what you meant, Kol was just being pedantic to counter your "negativity".

Do not worry about me being relaxed or not, I discuss always in the same tone. A rational tone without any emotion, I leave those for real life. On the internet I'm to gain and share knowledge, nothing more nothing less.

 

It's his choice to be pedantic, but I have the right to make himself look bad when he's being so no?

 

In either case as you've probably seen, the current codex isn't really much to come back to, but if you want to hang around and give your dry tactical assessments you are of course quite welcome, even though I don't play competitively or even that much anymore it's always good to have someone that knows what they are talking about around.

I might.

[Kol Saresk]

Zhukov, out of curiosity, how detailed was your look through? You call the Noise Marines Troops but they are Elites unless one of two requirements are met. That's a rather big detail to miss in my opinion. Not saying everything you've said is wrong or that I disagree with it, but it doesn't seem a detailed read through would quite miss something that big.

Do you think I missed that? ^^

Actually no, that is something I assumed you saw which is why I reacted at all because the wording used suggested a blanket fact of "They are Troops," not "they are primarily used as Troops. So after seeing "highly detailed" but then the missing of the detail that big, either I have to go with you're assuming that everyone is looking at them as Troops or for some reason or another, you missed the Elites detail. As the Cults are Troops only after a specific requirement is met, while you are right in that they are used primarily as Troops, that is not the only detail in their description. There could be Lil' Johnny who decides he is going to go into the Games Workshop store he keeps seeing next to the mall today and find out what everything is about, decide to pick up the CSM Codex, come home, look through, google forums, find BnC, read this topic and see your post and do the exact same thing I was just accused of doing, for the exact reason I pointed out the detail.

 

So saying that they are Troops after saying you had a detailed read through is a rather big detail to miss.

You also think I missed that? ^^

I think you misquoted someone here. I said that. Not whythre. And I was wondering. My first response was meant to be a "Hey did you miss this because it is a rather obvious mistake." Not a "Well you missed this detail so your credibility should be shot." No, that's why I said something about "I'm not saying you're wrong." I was pointing out that detail, not attacking your credibility. But after three months of constantly being misquoted and misunderstood, I don't know why I am still surprised that it happens, although in this case it happened because it got dragged out of context before you were able to reply and made to look like an attack on your credibility.

 

And I don't really have any particulars on what you do. It's your choice to make it, I'm not going to stop you. I may not always like the action or the repercussions but if that's the case, then I can get over it.

 

EDIT: Oh and apparently against popular belief, I was not "attacking his negativity." Actually read the post. If you have questions and/or comments about clarity, please ask instead of assuming that what you are thinking is what I said.

[the jeske]

Gee, I don't know, probably because they're already in the Elites section. Why wouldn't I think of them as Elites?

your seriously asking that :lol: have you ever read anyone one writing a tactica or report where pms/zerkers were elite ?

It is simple we always talk about armies within a limit of what is played around the world . We are not talking about the viability of unit X in 250pts games [yes 250 not 2500] , or how unit Y works under triple FoC army set ups .

If someone is taking NM , he is taking them as troops . Talking about options that doent exist is waste of space on the forum.

There could be Lil' Johnny who decides he is going to go into the Games Workshop store he keeps seeing next to the mall today and find out what everything is about, decide to pick up the CSM Codex, come home, look through, google forums, find BnC, read this topic and see your post and do the exact same thing I was just accused of doing, for the exact reason I pointed out the detail.

aha so a new guy goes in to a GW , decides to buy resin cast NM parts that rise his armies cost to the roof . before that , he checked the forums[including this one] and didnt see all the "NM not so good" including the one where zhukov himself saids that they are meh . he has to have no friends and no one to talk to in his FLGS/club , never played any table top game [picked NM,havnt read the codex enought o know he has to take a slany lord to take nm as troops] . And after all of that , he decides to buy an HQ that cant be a lord[so no huron , no sorc] which more or less boils down to a DP . His problem then boils down to buying 1 meq model or making one of the meq models he already owns his lord.

 

I dont see how such an ultra rare situation is worth considering NM as anything else then troops.

[Kol Saresk]

Gee, I don't know, probably because they're already in the Elites section. Why wouldn't I think of them as Elites?

your seriously asking that :lol: have you ever read anyone one writing a tactica or report where pms/zerkers were elite ?

It is simple we always talk about armies within a limit of what is played around the world . We are not talking about the viability of unit X in 250pts games [yes 250 not 2500] , or how unit Y works under triple FoC army set ups .

You missed the point of what I said. Again. but that's okay, it's explained above already.

 

2nd, don't you always say you do your numbers based on the tournament average meta in Europe? Europe isn't the whole world.

 

There could be Lil' Johnny who decides he is going to go into the Games Workshop store he keeps seeing next to the mall today and find out what everything is about, decide to pick up the CSM Codex, come home, look through, google forums, find BnC, read this topic and see your post and do the exact same thing I was just accused of doing, for the exact reason I pointed out the detail.

aha so a new guy goes in to a GW , decides to buy resin cast NM parts that rise his armies cost to the roof . before that , he checked the forums[including this one] and didnt see all the "NM not so good" including the one where zhukov himself saids that they are meh . he has to have no friends and no one to talk to in his FLGS/club , never played any table top game [picked NM,havnt read the codex enought o know he has to take a slany lord to take nm as troops] . And after all of that , he decides to buy an HQ that cant be a lord[so no huron , no sorc] which more or less boils down to a DP . His problem then boils down to buying 1 meq model or making one of the meq models he already owns his lord.

 

I dont see how such an ultra rare situation is worth considering NM as anything else then troops.

1.)One, you're assuming that the person I said is going into the store to find out what Games Workshop is about(in other words, he has no prior knowledge), somehow gained prior knowledge and yet still knows nothing when the state of knowing nothing is why he went into the store in the scenario I presented.

 

2.)You still reading my statement "They are listed as Elites" as saying "Take them as Elites." Considering the efforts I just went through to show what that when I said "They are listed as Elites in the Codex" as "THEY ARE LISTED AS ELITES IN THE CODEX" I would appreciate it if you actually read the posts instead of assuming.

[Zhukov]

Actually no, that is something I assumed you saw which is why I reacted at all because the wording used suggested a blanket fact of "They are Troops," not "they are primarily used as Troops. So after seeing "highly detailed" but then the missing of the detail that big, either I have to go with you're assuming that everyone is looking at them as Troops or for some reason or another, you missed the Elites detail. As the Cults are Troops only after a specific requirement is met, while you are right in that they are used primarily as Troops, that is not the only detail in their description. There could be Lil' Johnny who decides he is going to go into the Games Workshop store he keeps seeing next to the mall today and find out what everything is about, decide to pick up the CSM Codex, come home, look through, google forums, find BnC, read this topic and see your post and do the exact same thing I was just accused of doing, for the exact reason I pointed out the detail.

So many words, so little content. If I have to worry about somebody buying Noise Marines under the assumption that he thinks they're a standard troop choice because he only read my post... dunno what to say man.

 

But after three months of constantly being misquoted and misunderstood, I don't know why I am still surprised that it happens, although in this case it happened because it got dragged out of context before you were able to reply and made to look like an attack on your credibility.

Maybe it has something to do with you, no idea. I can only judge on these few posts of yours in this thread and the fact that you have over 3000 posts in 1 year.

 

And I don't really have any particulars on what you do. It's your choice to make it, I'm not going to stop you. I may not always like the action or the repercussions but if that's the case, then I can get over it.

Has the thought occured to you that you don't really matter to me? No offense, but you almost seem to have the idea I replied to you because I take you seriously. I do not, I replied because I fear others might.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually no, that is something I assumed you saw which is why I reacted at all because the wording used suggested a blanket fact of "They are Troops," not "they are primarily used as Troops. So after seeing "highly detailed" but then the missing of the detail that big, either I have to go with you're assuming that everyone is looking at them as Troops or for some reason or another, you missed the Elites detail. As the Cults are Troops only after a specific requirement is met, while you are right in that they are used primarily as Troops, that is not the only detail in their description. There could be Lil' Johnny who decides he is going to go into the Games Workshop store he keeps seeing next to the mall today and find out what everything is about, decide to pick up the CSM Codex, come home, look through, google forums, find BnC, read this topic and see your post and do the exact same thing I was just accused of doing, for the exact reason I pointed out the detail.

So many words, so little content. If I have to worry about somebody buying Noise Marines under the assumption that he thinks they're a standard troop choice because he only read my post... dunno what to say man.

I meant the part the part about actually attacking your credibility because they see "Codex says Elites, but this guy says Troops. He's obviously wrong." Which is what I was accused of doing.

 

But after three months of constantly being misquoted and misunderstood, I don't know why I am still surprised that it happens, although in this case it happened because it got dragged out of context before you were able to reply and made to look like an attack on your credibility.

Maybe it has something to do with you, no idea. I can only judge on these few posts of yours in this thread and the fact that you have over 3000 posts in 1 year.

Huh. Didn't know it was that much. Or that short. Seems so much longer. But actually since most of those posts are usually me explaining myself over and over and being misunderstood over and over, I might be responsible, except it's usually the same people misunderstanding. Especially since it's usually done by people dragging specific things out of context and ignoring the context. Not saying that's what you did. That's what others did and you just responded to a context forced on it by others instead of the original.

 

And I don't really have any particulars on what you do. It's your choice to make it, I'm not going to stop you. I may not always like the action or the repercussions but if that's the case, then I can get over it.

Has the thought occured to you that you don't really matter to me? No offense, but you almost seem to have the idea I replied to you because I take you seriously. I do not, I replied because others might.

I wasn't saying you did take me seriously. I just figured I'd respond to all of your points, including the one about me "not wanting you to stay around." I was just saying that I am indifferent, or have no particulars to what you do. I can't control you, I may or may not like you, I may even continue to remain neutral on my stance towards you, but if something happens that I don't like, then it is my problem to deal with. No?