Dreadclaws

[Vhalyar]

I think you need to look into the latest FW rules Jesk, all 40k stamped units are now fully 40k legal with the only additional proviso being that you must allow and provide your opponent with access to their rules.

They are official, as long as everyone agrees to play with the FW rules. It's not the individual units that matter but the setting.

Do you offer to play a match with someone and then spring on him or her that it's actually going to be a Cities of Death match and you've got units tailored for that? That's entirely one-sided.

People can decline to use CoD rules and they can ask you not to use FW rules and there's no reason to whine about it.

[Agent Purple]

Citing that Forgeworld states that its rules are approved for standard 40k is a circular reference.

 

If the Foreworld books are construed as unofficial supplements (and there is nothing in a standard GW publication that says forgeworld is approved for general release), then the Forgeworld books do not have the inherent authority to approve themselves.

 

Also HH legion army list isn't even marked as 40k approved if I remember correctly, so the 40k approved stuff becoming official would still not let you use a good army list in standard 40k against regular opponents.

 

Chaos players should also be careful with how they choose to interpret forgeworld 40k approved models being allowed. Imperial stuff from FW is way better and more game altering that the chaos stuff, so if we start to accept 40k approved stamped unit as being legal, we're just pushing the playing field more out of our favour that it already is.

[Nehekhare]

HH legion army list isn't even marked as 40k approved

the book itself is a "supplement for warhammer 40.000" (just like planetstrike, etc.). Only the heresy-era FOC (with extra HQ/Elites, Lords of war) is stated as being meant for playing battles in the age of darkness.

[dswanick]

I think you need to look into the latest FW rules Jesk, all 40k stamped units are now fully 40k legal with the only additional proviso being that you must allow and provide your opponent with access to their rules.

Well, that and that they are "happy" playing a game with Forge World models. But that's kinda the point.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=259858

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=257287

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=243336

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=230254

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=192419

[Agent Purple]

HH legion army list isn't even marked as 40k approved

the book itself is a "supplement for warhammer 40.000" (just like planetstrike, etc.). Only the heresy-era FOC (with extra HQ/Elites, Lords of war) is stated as being meant for playing battles in the age of darkness.

 

There is nothing in the book that says the list is approved for standard 40k. All other Forgeworld books where this is the case (where Forgeworld indicates they are suitable for standard games) include a Warhammer 40,000 stamp on the unit. HH army list does not, therefore the list is not approved for 'standard' 40k. This is separate from the 'supplement' status that is stated on Forgeworld productions. Analogy with planetstrike is also a poor choice to make an argument by example. Do you really expect to show up to a tournament or something and force your opponent to play with planet strike rules? Do you expect an opponent to play against you if you've bought stragems etc... from cityfight or boarding actions in IA9? Of course not...

 

++EDIT++ To clarify, I still don't even buy that Forgeworld even has the legitimacy to declare their rules legal for standard 40k in the first place...

[Nehekhare]

There is nothing in the book that says the list is approved for standard 40k.

p.289., last paragraph, even got your stamp there right above.

 

Warhammer 40,000 stamp on the unit. HH army list does not, therefore the list is not approved for 'standard' 40k.

then where is the 40.000 stamp in the planetstrike book? or crusade of fire? or white dwarf?

 

This is separate from the 'supplement' status that is stated on Forgeworld productions.

no, it isn't. you're just scared of "having" to play some douche showing up with a reaver titan at you local tourney. you do realize that you just have to say "no", do you?

 

Do you really expect to [...] force your opponent to play with [xxx] rules?

No, I politely ask my opponent beforehand so we can come to a conclusion about what kind of game we both want to play - just like with any other supplement, rules edition or codex.

Do you really think you can FORCE anyone to play your GK/space marines/orks just because they are "40k approved"?

 

I still don't even buy that Forgeworld even has the legitimacy to declare their rules legal for standard 40k in the first place...

I get that and I don't care: play what you like, but don't try to force your perspective of "legitimacy" on others.

[Rik Riorik]

It must have come from somewhere this view that Forgeworld units are this damgerous thing that surely we must guard against. But from where and most importantly why, I just won't understand. The view on this 'that any game of 40k proceeds on an agreement basis" is the most insightful thing anyone ever said on the subject.

[Cleal Baros]

I think many people are missing the point and the Reaver example doesn't even apply as it will carry an apocalypse stamp, if any, and therefore will not be acceptable in a standard 40k game.

 

The stamp system has been introduced to allow people to understand that forgeworld units are now regarded as legal supplementary options to those found within the the army codexes but also to prevent those larger and more destructive units from slipping into competitive gameplay. I's a fairly elegant solution that allows GW to introduce more of its forgeworld content and units into the game whilst also not limiting their production of the larger units many of us know and love in a way that won't affect the average 40k tournament.

 

For the other poster questioning Forgeworld's 'authority' to declare their units and supplements as legal I'd like to point out that they are GW, it may have a different name and be in a building over the road from GW HQ but it's the same company and they have just as much of an ability (so long as GW's management team have sanctioned it so) to declare their output legal as the codex team does.

 

For me the text explaining the stamps is clear:

 

"This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games of 40k, within the usual limitations of Codex selecetion and force organisation charts. As with all of our models they should be considered 'official'"

 

Yes, you of course have the choice not to play against FW units but this choice in no different from your choice not to play against thunderwolves, anything from the Imperial Guard codex or players wearing red. With many tournaments now moving towards allowing FW and 'friendly' games almost certainly having no such restrictions by their nature I'd argue anyone dead against facing and playing FW are simply putting themselves at a disadvantage.

 

What other group of wargamers would turn their nose up at the chance to play and use hundreds of new units they;ve not really had access to before?

 

It's time people accept that 40k is not a balanced game of skill and finesse. I myself held onto this belief for a long time until I finally gave in after Ward's explanation that the studio were moving away from Cavatore's ideas of streamlined and competitive system and back to the 'original' ideas behind 40k of a table top game designed to be a fun and cinematic system which allowed you to recreate and produce cinematic episodes set withint he 40k universe.

 

If you want a competitive game of skill then play chess. If you want to play out battles on the chaotic and war torn battlefields of the 41st Millennium then play 40k and enjoy the widest possible array of options, units and rules you can get your hands on.

 

Just my opinion, but it's more fun than those of the diehard anti-FW lobby and if your playing 40k for any other reason than fun and enjoyment then you worry me deeply.

 

Regards,

Cleal

[dswanick]

For the other poster questioning Forgeworld's 'authority' to declare their units and supplements as legal I'd like to point out that they are GW, it may have a different name and be in a building over the road from GW HQ but it's the same company and they have just as much of an ability (so long as GW's management team have sanctioned it so) to declare their output legal as the codex team does.

Funny thing is - GW rules writers seem to disagree with you that Forge World has any authority to declare itself "legal":

"

Q: Land Speeder Storms, Stormraven Gunships and Stormtalon Gunships are all listed as Space Marine vehicles in the Reference

section. Does this mean that every Space Marine Chapter now has access to these vehicles as well (i.e. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey

Knights etc.)? (p411)

A: No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your Codex.

The one

exception

is the Stormtalon (as its rules were featured in White Dwarf), but it is only available to armies chosen from

Codex: Space Marines.

", BRB

FAQ

,

Pg

.7

[Azekai]

For the other poster questioning Forgeworld's 'authority' to declare their units and supplements as legal I'd like to point out that they are GW, it may have a different name and be in a building over the road from GW HQ but it's the same company and they have just as much of an ability (so long as GW's management team have sanctioned it so) to declare their output legal as the codex team does.

Funny thing is - GW rules writers seem to disagree with you that Forge World has any authority to declare itself "legal":

"

Q: Land Speeder Storms, Stormraven Gunships and Stormtalon Gunships are all listed as Space Marine vehicles in the Reference

section. Does this mean that every Space Marine Chapter now has access to these vehicles as well (i.e. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey

Knights etc.)? (p411)

A: No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your Codex.

The one

exception

is the Stormtalon (as its rules were featured in White Dwarf), but it is only available to armies chosen from

Codex: Space Marines.

", BRB

FAQ

,

Pg

.7

I don't think quoting that ruling is apropos for the purposes of this Forgeworld discussion. That FAQ ruling is pretty clearly meant to keep the different marine chapters distinct and not allow them all to get unlimited access to fliers. Using that to say "aha, no forgeworld!" is reaching, since that was not part of the question nor intent of the answer.

 

The entire nature of 40k is shifting, and I think we are caught in the awkward pubescent phase when many rules are murky if not outright contradictory. GW is clearly moving toward a narrative driven game with less and less emphasis placed on game balance or competition. Some tourneys are already allowing Forgeworld options while others aren't, and the amount of unrest these sorts of threads generate reflect the strange climate of the game itself. Time will tell, but ultimately we should all just play nice and not spring a shadowsword on an unsuspecting opponent and expect them to be fine with it.

[dswanick]

For the other poster questioning Forgeworld's 'authority' to declare their units and supplements as legal I'd like to point out that they are GW, it may have a different name and be in a building over the road from GW HQ but it's the same company and they have just as much of an ability (so long as GW's management team have sanctioned it so) to declare their output legal as the codex team does.

Funny thing is - GW rules writers seem to disagree with you that Forge World has any authority to declare itself "legal":

"

Q: Land Speeder Storms, Stormraven Gunships and Stormtalon Gunships are all listed as Space Marine vehicles in the Reference

section. Does this mean that every Space Marine Chapter now has access to these vehicles as well (i.e. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey

Knights etc.)? (p411)

A: No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your Codex.

The one

exception

is the Stormtalon (as its rules were featured in White Dwarf), but it is only available to armies chosen from

Codex: Space Marines.

", BRB

FAQ

,

Pg

.7

I don't think quoting that ruling is apropos for the purposes of this Forgeworld discussion. That FAQ ruling is pretty clearly meant to keep the different marine chapters distinct and not allow them all to get unlimited access to fliers. Using that to say "aha, no forgeworld!" is reaching, since that was not part of the question nor intent of the answer.

 

The entire nature of 40k is shifting, and I think we are caught in the awkward pubescent phase when many rules are murky if not outright contradictory. GW is clearly moving toward a narrative driven game with less and less emphasis placed on game balance or competition. Some tourneys are already allowing Forgeworld options while others aren't, and the amount of unrest these sorts of threads generate reflect the strange climate of the game itself. Time will tell, but ultimately we should all just play nice and not spring a shadowsword on an unsuspecting opponent and expect them to be fine with it.

I still miss my Chapter Approved Vehicle Design Rules... :)

[Sception]

I'm hoping that FW pulling the dreadclaw is a precurser to a future GW plastic release + white dwarf supplement as a dedicated transport, and it was only left out of our codex because of Chapterhouse syndrome.

 

Do not steal this hope from me, I need it to sleep at night.

[Lepaca]

I'm hoping that FW pulling the dreadclaw is a precurser to a future GW plastic release + white dwarf supplement as a dedicated transport, and it was only left out of our codex because of Chapterhouse syndrome.

 

Do not steal this hope from me, I need it to sleep at night.

 

That would be sweet indeed.

[Ammonius]

I'm hoping that FW pulling the dreadclaw is a precurser to a future GW plastic release + white dwarf supplement as a dedicated transport, and it was only left out of our codex because of Chapterhouse syndrome.

 

Do not steal this hope from me, I need it to sleep at night.

 

That would be sweet indeed.

Only if it went back to being a dedicated transport option.

Otherwise (for me) it goes in the "neat models it may be fun to build someday" category.

[Vhalyar]

"This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games of 40k, within the usual limitations of Codex selecetion and force organisation charts. As with all of our models they should be considered 'official'"

 

Yes, you of course have the choice not to play against FW units but this choice in no different from your choice not to play against thunderwolves, anything from the Imperial Guard codex or players wearing red. With many tournaments now moving towards allowing FW and 'friendly' games almost certainly having no such restrictions by their nature I'd argue anyone dead against facing and playing FW are simply putting themselves at a disadvantage.

 

Incorrect. Shall I quote Warwick Kinrade's own take on the matter?

 

As far as we are concerned, Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will. Want to play on a ruined city board using the Cities of Death rules variants? Fine. Want to play on a ruined city board without using the rules variants, just using the rules as published in the 40k rulebook? Also fine. The two things that matter are that both players know this before they start, and both players agree that’s the way they want to play the game. So is Cities of Death official? You can’t use it in a tournament! The Imperial Armour rules are just the same…

 

What other group of wargamers would turn their nose up at the chance to play and use hundreds of new units they;ve not really had access to before?

 

The kind of player who doesn't like having a trap sprung on him, or dislikes being unprepared for the wild stuff FW makes, or who lacks adequate FW support, or who's trying to learn the game, or wants a "classic" battle? All of these are perfectly valid reasons.

 

Here, Warwick's got something to say about that too.

 

As explained above, to compensate, opponents have to skew their army to counter the uber-killer. the game becomes just about stopping it, and this actually doesn’t make for a very entertaining battle because the game balance has been so badly thrown out by its presence. The use of the uber-killers can be easily fixed by considering the context. By this I mean the context within the game takes place. In stand-alone points-based games, the uber-killers of the 41st millennium have no place, but this does not mean they have no place in 40k in general. The solution is to play different styles of games, which will allow players to get hours of gaming fun from their large models.

 

So there you go. Treat the entirety of FW rules as an expansion. Ask if the other player wants to play the expansion. Yes? Awesome, go hogwild with everything. No? Well, that's that, don't whine about it.

[Sception]

GW rules are even worse than FW rules on all of those issues, though, so I don't see the issue. Most don't own all the codeces to know every unit, GW broken is more broken than anything you get out of FW, most of which is underpowered for its points compared to codex options. Games revolving around whether or not the enemy can kill your uber death machine? Have you run AV12 fliers in 6e?

 

All games are mutual consent. My opponents don't have my consent to run scythespam, or any other army that is too annoying or unfun for me to feel it's worth giving up my entire free day to play a game against it. If you're in a tournament, then you're in a tournament, and you follow the organizer's rules - FW or no, fortifications or no, fliers or no, allies or no, special characters or no, random effect terrain or no, multiple detachments or no, rulebook scenarios or no. I don't think I've seen even a single 40k tournament advertized that was exactly by "DA RULZ" since 6e's release.

 

This is just the way things are now. That 40k stamp in a FW book is just as legal as anything in your codex, and your opponents can refuse to play against it every bit as much or as little as they can refuse to play against draigowing, Abaddon, Landing Pads, or some random homebrew 'space skaven' codex you found on the internet.

[Rain]

What's funny to me is that this debate is occuring in the Chaos forum as we have far less FW stuff than loyalists and when we kind of share something our version is generally worse. In either case though I really doubt that dreadclaws will become a WD write-in because GW seems to be making a point to not do that since all of the IG stuff they ported. I mean that's the whole reason we have the turkey instead of hell talons and hades autocannons instead of butcher cannons.

[Sception]

Yes, but FW pulled the Dreadclaw. They don't sell it, or display it on their website anymore.

[Azekai]

Yes, but FW pulled the Dreadclaw. They don't sell it, or display it on their website anymore.

So . . . can't we just bulk up a loyalist drop pod and stick some teeth on it? Cheaper that way too.

[dswanick]

Yes, but FW pulled the Dreadclaw. They don't sell it, or display it on their website anymore.

So . . . can't we just bulk up a loyalist drop pod and stick some teeth on it? Cheaper that way too.

Add some Chaos bling to taste...

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/Warhammer%2040000/Work%20in%20Progress/Pre-HeresyDreadclaw.jpg

[Rain]

I think the point malisteen is making is that if we are to assume that GW doesn't do FW stuff in plastic solely to avoid conflict with its own Forgeworld division then it can now go ahead and make dreadclaws as FW has pulled them. What I am saying is that GW is asinine and attempting to extrapolate a logical system from their actions is like trying to figure out what the trees really mean when they rustle in the wind.

[Azekai]

I think the point malisteen is making is that if we are to assume that GW doesn't do FW stuff in plastic solely to avoid conflict with its own Forgeworld division then it can now go ahead and make dreadclaws as FW has pulled them. What I am saying is that GW is asinine and attempting to extrapolate a logical system from their actions is like trying to figure out what the trees really mean when they rustle in the wind.

"What's that, trees? You think chaos should have access to captured loyalist vehicles? I couldn't agree more!"

 

Good find, Dswanick. That is a tempting conversion. I saw something similar over on dakka.

[Vesper]

Dreadclaws are, in fact, pretty good in the HH Sons of Horus list. Assault vehicule, dedicated transport...

[Agent Purple]

p.289., last paragraph, even got your stamp there right above.

 

There is no 40k approved stamp on p.289. There is a note that it is a 40k supplement, but this is not the same as FW's standard game approval stamp which has already been previously posted.

[Nehekhare]

not the same as FW's standard game approval stamp

it''s the same as all 40k supplement stamps, that is all that matters.