XeroAikon Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I'm starting a grey knights force and am trying to figure out how to gear out my justicars. Am I reading the faq correctly in that all nemesis force weapons are ap3? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Nemesis Daemon Hammers are AP2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3256527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Nemesis Daemon Hammers are AP2. ...because they are defined to be Thunderhammers (a BRB construct) with additional properties. :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3259374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Nemesis Daemon Hammers are AP2. ...because they are defined to be Thunderhammers (a BRB construct) with additional properties. :devil: Yep. All others are Unusual Force Weapons and follow the rules for such found in the BRB on Pg.60. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3259432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahatch42878 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Can I ask a question that has been bugging me about the Nemesis Force Swords and non-terminators/non-paladins... what exactly is the point of the nemesis force swords on Strike/Interceptor/Purgation/Purifier units wearing normal power armor? Other than the 5-10 pts per model extra, why not upgrade to +2 initiative or +1 attack or AP2/Sx2/Unwieldy because the force swords are not granting power armored marines the +1 invulnerable save in melee right? Now, I guess in 1000 pts, maybe that extra 100 pts you spend on weapons could have been spent elsewhere, or maybe you leave 2-3 "regular force sword armed marines" as basically ablative armor so you can have your halberds, falchions, and hammers actually get into combat and save the 15-30 pts wasted on them if they die before melee... or is it just that the +1 to invulnerable saves for terminators/paladins is just icing on the force sword cake and so people don't worry about it when just arming power armored marines? Thankx! Josh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3264364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Do you REALLY want standard GKs to have a Halberd as standard? A Force Sword on a Grey Knight already makes them roughly three times more effective than vanilla MEQ. They don't need anything more than that. A Power Weapon is enough to make them special, but they got Force Weapons on top of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3264370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The main rule book lists a number of ways to get an invulnerable save from a source other than a USR or piece of wargear. That save may become available during a game for a number of reasons ranging from psychic powers to terrain effects. Now while it may take some aligning of the stars, it is possible for a GK in PA to make use of his invulnerable save bonus granted by his NFS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3264525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Ok, heres a situation as described above by ValourousHeart: Your strike squad is accompanied by an inquisitor. The inquisitor casts the 4+ invuln power on the strike squad, strikes charge into assualt, the strikes use their swords and they now have a 3+ invuln for that combat phase. Viola! their using those swords Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3265383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahatch42878 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 First off, thanks for the example - that is a very good point and does a nice job of bringing up the synergy of certain armies or models/units. That said, in response to BrotherWasted, I am not saying all GKs in Power armor need halberds, but for as good as GK are, isn't a GK that goes first (in most cases) against most other marines, chaos or loyal, even those with slaanesh upgrade. Even a lot of characters only have an initiative of 5 so they'd still potentially get wiped out before they get a chance to return the attacks. The falchions are nice in the extra attack, which when you have fewer models can be an issue against larger horde armies, although at the same time, you don't necessarily want to just be in melee there when the GK have such better ranged options (especially with rate of fire)... The question really to me is the points bump (unless you are planning on something like the example above where you get to use the 4+ invulnerable save) but I feel like the halberds really keep the power armored marines as even a better cut above the rest (no halberd puns please). I was looking for some counter-argument to that, and the about the other options for sword equipped marines, and yeah, the psychic powers are probably the best place to start. Thanx! Josh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3266424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 The simple fact that a GK has a force weapon puts them a cut above the rest of the Power Armored Marine varieties, with the exception of maybe Slaaneshi CSM and arguably Grey Hunters. That's before you take the Storm Bolter into account, as well. GKs already get better shooting and assault tools than most other Marine books. PAGK don't need to have cheap halberds, and frankly, they have no right to have them when so many other Codices have to work with garbage. Either you make them Initiative 6 standard with 1A and no Force Weapons, or you keep them at standard I with a basic Force Weapon. Both options are powerful enough as is. Any drawbacks a GK squad may have with number of attacks is countered by the fact that they can unleash the maximum firepower of their squad, THEN charge. A 10-man Strike Squad with 2 Psycannons should wipe out 7-8 other MEQ if they get the charge. You want to kill half the squad with shooting, and then charge at I6 as standard?? That's just broken. Even on defense, a 1A GK with a force weapon is about the same as a Grey Hunter charging you with 3A. Your wounds are 3 times likely to kill an MEQ, where as a Grey Hunter has 3 times the number of attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3266473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Either you make them Initiative 6 standard with 2A and no Force Weapons I'd take that over a force weapon *anyday*. LoL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3266569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Mistype, that should read 1A. 2A base at I6 is quite silly, tipping them over Grey Hunters :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3266603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahatch42878 Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I'm not trying to get into an argument here, but it seems like most of your arguments (brotherwasted) are more about GK being overpowered already, and less to do with points and loadout options... I do agree after reading more of the army list critiques that the halberd (and falchion) upgrades are probably not the best use of points in many cases, and I do see your point about power armor with power/force weapon already being potent and spending 25% more per model is unnecessary... however, my thought was more that if you are going to be outnumbered, why not give your models the best chance of not even taking a hit back (from those pesky grey hunters or slaanesh marines or whatever)... obviously, if you are playing against Necrons, IG, Orks, or anybody else with a lower initiative it is a waste of points but at the same time, there are enough AP3 weapon (in some of those lists) that having so few models on the table is a bit scary. But, point taken. On the other side of the coin now (if you'll humor me) - it seems that a lot of lists take Terminators (or paladins) with a lot of halberds... which seems exactly opposite to what I would think, if you have a 2+ save and a 4++ invulnerable with the swords, why are you now exchanging your extra +1 invulnerable save for the higher initiative (which we've decided is unnecessary on most power armored marines)? or is it now that my argument about going first and not even taking the strikes back comes into play with terminators because they are so much more expensive? - Josh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3267596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Because halberds are free? With the new AP rules, 2+ save is better than a 4++ with sword, allowwing GKT to take a better mix of AP2 hammers and I6 halberds. Sword are a less useful option for most GK Termies. The units that benefit from NFS are characters with Iron Halos such as Grand Masters and Brotherhood Champions. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3267617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahatch42878 Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Ah, good point.. didn't even realize characters have iron halos in addition to the terminator armor. thanxk! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3267644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Most of the times are the swords are most useful are on yes, the champion and the grandmaster, and the brother captain. But swords are standard on the rest. strikes are already really great. Base cost of a marine is 16 points for vanilla dex. so for 4 points we get our marines with a storm bolter, force sword, a psyker, and a +1 strength psychic power for the assualt phase. yea, sign me up for that. + the anti deepstrike power for strikes, "shoo, get away, drop pod wolves!" and the aegis. So Kights argueably have the 3rd, possibly 2nd best psychic defense in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3267918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Runes are Warding is number 1, Runic Weapons are number 2. Technically, the Reinforced Aegis of the Dreads would be above the normal Aegis, whic is at best, 4th. You might want to consider Mindstrike Missiles and Shadow of the Warp in there as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3267925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Yes, runes are number 1, no arguement there, but the runic weapons only have a 24" bubble, and you don't get deny the witch roll on top of that. But every grey knight squad gets a 5+ deny the witch base plus a -1 ld modifier for that psychic test, and the mindstrike missiles can be really good because you don't get a save for perils now, except feel no pain... which is over looked any way. And yea, shadow of the warp is good, but thats a measly 12", and you've probably messed up if you've let them get that close anyway since its nids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3268853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Runic Weapons can also stop buffs, why Deny/Aegis have no effect on. The ability to cancel Fortune, etc, puts them above a 5+ Deny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267408-nemesis-force-weapons/#findComment-3269031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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