Astral Aim and Aegis lines

[Agent Purple]

If using astral aim power on a purgation squad to fire at a unit behind an ADL, can they still choose to use the ADL cover save (and stack with stealth or GTG)?

 

Technically they would be able to use the best save available, but since astral aim ignores LOS, could they still claim a cover save from ADL due to 25% of model obscured from firer? I would think not using the same rationale for smart missiles / hive guard (that also do not need LOS) that only allow cover saves if models are in or touching terrain (in which case technically front models could claim ADL cover save if in B2B with line, but we could focus fire the farther away models, right?)

[DarkGuard]

As Astral Aim ignores LoS, and the wording claims that it confers a 4+ save to the unit being shot at, I'd say that they can only take the cover save conferred by Astral Aim (and their armour save if eligible, invulnerable save etc), because there is effectively no other cover for them.

 

But I don't have the exact wording in front of me, so I could be wrong.

[Axagoras]

Id say that based on how the rule is worded you only can get a 4+ cover save (it says it my not be modified by any means) so even behind a ADL its just a 4+

[Gentlemanloser]

Why would the use of Astral Aim negate any existing cover the unit might have?

 

Is the target behind the Aegis? Even if the target is also out of los, while being behind the Aegis (from the direction of the attacker), what stops them using the save of the Aegis, if it's better?

[DarkGuard]

If the attack doesn't use LoS, and the unit isn't in area terrain, how can they claim a cover save from something between them and the firer? I'm going off memory here, so I could be wrong, but I remember thinking that it was basically the same as Hive Guard Impaler Cannons, plus the cover save always given.

[Gentlemanloser]

If the targets body is at least 25% obscured from at least one firer, they would still get a cover save, even if the attacks didn't use LoS to attack.

[DarkGuard]

Does the Astral Aim wording not contradict and override that? I'm trusting you as I'm sure you've played more Grey Knights than me (I could be misremembering though) and also assume you have the Codex to hand (mine is many, many miles away :P).

[stephane4985]

I don't see why they would get a better save because of the defense line. The rule says they get a 4+ cover which cannot be modified by any means.

 

I would think that being behind a defense line is a mean of getting a cover save and that "cannot be modified by any means" basically says that being behind the defense line cannot modified the 4+.

 

The way I see it is if you can see some model behind the defense line, you have 2 choices:

 

1) fire at them directly, which means you ca only kill the models you see and they get a cover save of 3+.

 

2) you use astral aim, risk missing the psychic test or having a peril of the warp, and shoot at all the model in the squad with a 4+ cover save.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you have multiple saves, you always get to use the best one available. f you have multiple different Cover saves available, you always get to use the best one;

 

Page 19 modesl with more than one save;

 

a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save

 

If a model can benefit fiom differerrt types of cover, for example, being behind a bloodthorn hedge (6+ Cover save) and a barricade (4+), the model uses the best cover save available

 

AA grants a 4+ cover save you can't modify. It doesn't deny you any other Cover Saves you might be entitled to.

[stephane4985]

Good point.

 

Lol, I know there was a reason why nobody is using them yet in 6th. Now I know.

[stephane4985]

But there is something I still don't understand. What determine if you get the cover save from the aegis defense line. Do you need to touch it?

 

I means, look at this example.

 

there is a ruin in the middle of the field. You are on one side and the enemy is on the other side, but not in the area of the ruin. You have no LOS so you shoot at them using astral aim. They are not in the ruin so they don't get the 4+ cover save from the ruin, but they get the 4+ from astral aim. (ok bad example because both save are the same, but you understand the point).

 

Now we take the same example but replace the ruins with a defense line. They get 4 + from astral aim because you have no LOS, but if they are on the other side of the defense line but 4 inch away from it, surely they can't claim cover from it (their is no 25% rule, you don't have LOS). Even 1 inch from it, a defense line is not area terrain, usually. So how do they get it? By touching it?

 

*Confuse

[Morticon]

But there is something I still don't understand. What determine if you get the cover save from the aegis defense line. Do you need to touch it?

 

If 25% of a model is a obscured by part of the defense line, then you're getting a 4+. Doesnt matter how far away you are. Its also why Aegis lines grant cover to the enemy more often than not.

[stephane4985]

But there is something I still don't understand. What determine if you get the cover save from the aegis defense line. Do you need to touch it?

 

If 25% of a model is a obscured by part of the defense line, then you're getting a 4+. Doesnt matter how far away you are. Its also why Aegis lines grant cover to the enemy more often than not.

 

 

But what happen if you don't have LOS. You are telling me that the obstacle bloking LOS between you and the enemy is determining the cover when using astral aim, even if you are both 12 inch away from it without LOS? So we are to apply the 25% rule even without LOS?

[DarkGuard]

My understanding is that being obscured from the view of the firer includes LoS. When LoS is ignored for an attack, how can you claim cover?

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase LoS and Obscured are different.

 

You need to see some part of the target to shoot them.

 

Obscured is 'at least' 25%. No LoS is 100%, which is still Obscured.

 

AA only lets you shoot at 100% obscured targets, it doesn't change the fact they are Obscured.

[Axagoras]

You cannot get 3 cover saves, you just have 1, and that one is the best. Quit trying to game the system, astral aim gives you a 4+ cover, no matter what you are in.

[Gentlemanloser]

No.

 

Please read the rules. i've quoted them above.

 

Edit: I'd love to use AA to deny Pathfinders a 2+ cover Save. Sadly, that's not the rules.

 

Edit2: Tongue in cheek spanner in the works.

 

AA sucks, as if no mini is in LoS, you cannot allocate wounds to anyone anyway! :)

 

Page 16;

 

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends.

 

:)

[DK1]

You cannot get 3 cover saves, you just have 1, and that one is the best. Quit trying to game the system, astral aim gives you a 4+ cover, no matter what you are in.

 

Agreed

[Gentlemanloser]

If a model can benefit fiom differerrt types of cover, for example, being behind a bloodthorn hedge (6+ Cover save) and a barricade (4+), the model uses the best cover save available

 

You can be standing in a Crater (Area Terrain) with a rhino in front blocking LoS, get shot at with AA, and still be able to claim the Area Terrain's 5+ Cover Save.

 

As to what cover save a LoS blocking Rhino would give you, that's up for you and your opponent to decide.

 

Edit: Yea the Craters 5+ is worse than the 4+ of AA, but you can Go To Ground in the crater for a 3+ Cover Save. You can't increase the AA save by going to ground, as it's unmodifiable.

 

you could go to ground, but you'd still get a 4+ save. so it's worthless to do so.

[DK1]

No.

 

Please read the rules. i've quoted them above.

 

Edit: I'd love to use AA to deny Pathfinders a 2+ cover Save. Sadly, that's not the rules.

 

Edit2: Tongue in cheek spanner in the works.

 

AA sucks, as if no mini is in LoS, you cannot allocate wounds to anyone anyway! :)

 

Page 16;

 

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends.

 

:)

 

Codex overrules BrB due to it not being "referred" to in the FAQ

[Axagoras]

Page 16;

 

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends.

AA says they can shoot at them even if they don't have LOS, and I hate saying this but against you I will, Codex trumps rulebook.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can shoot. Yes.

 

You cna't wound. AA doesn't let you *wound* mini's out of LoS.

 

Only shoot them.

[DK1]

You can shoot. Yes.

 

You cna't wound. AA doesn't let you *wound* mini's out of LoS.

 

Only shoot them.

 

This is the reason they shut down 'Ard Boys

 

Try arguing this with a Judge at a tournament...AA would still kill a few of your guys

[Axagoras]

Well you see, advanced trumps basic, and codex trumps rulebook, and faq trumps codex.. but if I yell loudly enough and forget that this is just a table top game I CAN TRUMP THEM ALL! (sarcasm)

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't really care about what a TO would rule. But I do like discussing the RAW of the game.

 

There's a BRB that tells you, you *can't* wound anyone out of LoS.

 

There isn't any GK rule that allows you to do so.

 

So, as 40k is a permissive rule set, and there's no rule permitting you to wound a unit out of LoS, you can't.

 

Now, whatever you decide to house rule, or whatever a TO decides to rule, goes. Go nuts, have fun. Yes it's stupid that AA has been 'editioned out', but it's not alone in being made redundant by 6th edition. Maybe one day, GW will fix it. Maybe.

 

This all being said, you *can* have multiple cover saves. And you always get to use the best save you have access to. Nothing in AA's codex rule stops that.

 

Edit: And note to self, thats the last time I inject some humour into an OR thread. Hell, I even used two smilies so it wouldn't get miscontroued as arrogance/hostility/uncivility/take your pick.