Fluff Discussion

[Nehekhare]

So the crunch aspect of new C:CSM(eh) has been discussed much, often and bitterly. How about the other side? What do you think the new phildex brought for chaos fluffwise?

IS there anything new actually? Any improvements over the last dex? what specifically did surprise/fascinate/disappoint you?

 

To make a start, I found the bit about Perturabo's plague (p.22) quite entertaining, good to hear that the old chum did stick his head out of the fortress of hate on medrengard once, and that he had dealings with nurgle (strenghtening the rumor about nurglite obliterator origin and giving me a retroactive excuse to field PMs). Everything dark mechanicum is a plus for me, too. on the downside, there wasn't exactly much about the legions at all.

 

what about you?

[GlauG]

The most exciting bit of background for me was about the various Abyssal Crusade chapters and their fates. I'm a sucker for new warbands/chapters/etc though. I actually skipped over the fluff section on my first read, saving it for a boring bus journey a few weeks later, but was pleasantly surprised at how many new little things there were. I can't disagree that the absence of info on the legions was a bit disappointing, but I suppose the HH novels are now our main source of fluff for the greater proportion of the Chaos Space Marines in existence.

[Vesper]

Phil gave us something we missed for a long time : victories.

To make it short, new having new details on some Black Crusades is great. The Abyssal Crusade is cool too, and gee, daemon primarchs do something !

 

Yet, sadly, I felt it was pretty lackluster. After the worst codex in existence (gavdex, yes), I hoped we could get something great, with tons of fluff and stuff. And all we were given was a hardback overcosted subpar codex.

[the jeske]

I think this maybe a problem of scale. If your a legion player the destruction of a planet or a loyalist chapter isnt anything awesome . 1k marines dead ? that is more or less what was dieing per hour durning the heresy .

interesting fluff is fluff about why someone does stuff. That is why DE or necron stuff was good [sW fluff too]. It explains the faction gives it more depth . The new dex makes legion guys crazy and random . + kelly tries to make me like huron which aint possible . a pirate renegade leader ? good idea. Second size army after abadon in less then 1k years after getting beaten to under 300 man ? ultramarine level fluff.

 

I wish they wrote stuff about demon worlds and how marines/cultists/demons live on those . how does marines daily life look like in the eye , when for everything there they are a snack .

 

victories are fine and good , but I dont need pating on the back to like my faction.

[Azekai]

I wish they wrote stuff about demon worlds and how marines/cultists/demons live on those . how does marines daily life look like in the eye , when for everything there they are a snack .

That has been addressed in some Black Library works/black crusade books already, and the answer is . . . it's really weird. But I would like to see some more stuff there in the 'dex, for sure.

 

Some loyalists think the Abyssal Crusade was stupid (how many chapters were destroyed/turned? ZOMG impossibru!), but I rather like all the new warbands that it brought to the table.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Some loyalists think the Abyssal Crusade was stupid (how many chapters were destroyed/turned? ZOMG impossibru!), but I rather like all the new warbands that it brought to the table.

 

They're just butthurt at how easy it was to turn almost 30 entire Chapters of Space Marines. Doubt and mistrust now whisper in their minds that this fate will befall them all before the end.

[Vesper]

Some loyalists think the Abyssal Crusade was stupid (how many chapters were destroyed/turned? ZOMG impossibru!), but I rather like all the new warbands that it brought to the table.

 

They're just butthurt at how easy it was to turn almost 30 entire Chapters of Space Marines. Doubt and mistrust now whisper in their minds that this fate will befall them all before the end.

 

Pretty much.

 

interesting fluff is fluff about why someone does stuff. That is why DE or necron stuff was good [sW fluff too]. It explains the faction gives it more depth . The new dex makes legion guys crazy and random . + kelly tries to make me like huron which aint possible . a pirate renegade leader ? good idea. Second size army after abadon in less then 1k years after getting beaten to under 300 man ? ultramarine level fluff.

 

I wish they wrote stuff about demon worlds and how marines/cultists/demons live on those . how does marines daily life look like in the eye , when for everything there they are a snack .

 

victories are fine and good , but I dont need pating on the back to like my faction.

 

I totally concur, but in fact, Chaos ain't a faction per se. There's a myriad of factions, with different goals, motivations and stuff. And come on, let us be clear on that one, we decently can't ask for class A fluff from GW anymore.

Chaos, more than any other faction in the universe revolves around individuals. Abaddon and other super badasses are those who draw the lines. And I have the feeling that with such characters, GW doesn't want to touch the fluff too much, as BL most likely has plans for those. Yet, for Abaddon, they gave us his "plan", his "how to get to Terra and smash things". Which is kinda big.

And victories give us a little more room to build stuff that doesn't come ex nihilo. Which is always nice. For example, my Black Legion company played an active part in some of Abaddon's BC.

[Rain]

Perhaps (read: certainly) I'm just bitter but I thought the Abyssal Crusade fluff felt really slapped togetherand forced. First off, why did every chapter that turned change their name? Second, Knights Excelsior. Third, it made it out as if a chapter's fall just involves losing a battle on a demon world or being swallowed by the spaghetti guy from Se7en. It feels too instant, too easy, there's no drama it's just "ok we're evil now". The Constantinus story in the Gavdex of all things was far better and that's sad.

 

The rest is basically copypaste except for the bit about Abaddon actually understaning that a war of attrition with the Imperium wouldn't work and plotting to expand the Eye of Terror as a "path" to Terra, that makes Chaos seem like more of a credible existential threat to the Imperium which is as it should be.

[Vesper]

Perhaps (read: certainly) I'm just bitter but I thought the Abyssal Crusade fluff felt really slapped togetherand forced. First off, why did every chapter that turned change their name? Second, Knights Excelsior. Third, it made it out as if a chapter's fall just involves losing a battle on a demon world or being swallowed by the spaghetti guy from Se7en. It feels too instant, too easy, there's no drama it's just "ok we're evil now". The Constantinus story in the Gavdex of all things was far better and that's sad.

 

As I see it, they couldn't expand more on it, as it already takes several pages, yet I still do think that it's just a way to give us the tools to make those tragedies by ourselves and come up with a warband that comes from that specific crusade, so they have some material they can relate to.

Yet, you're right, I would have prefered to have one well written report of the demise of a single chapter and have the rest resumed by a simple sentence.

 

The rest is basically copypaste except for the bit about Abaddon actually understaning that a war of attrition with the Imperium wouldn't work and plotting to expand the Eye of Terror as a "path" to Terra, that makes Chaos seem like more of a credible existential threat to the Imperium which is as it should be.

 

Totally, they realized they made the imperium way stronger than it was in the past, so they had to reshape our long time plan, because the "death by a thousand cuts" was feeling more and more retarded.

[Malthe]

My main problem with the Abyssal Crusade, is Phill's horrible notion that he has to name everything... badly too! Where am I supposed to fit in my DIY :D

Also having Saint Basillius a secret agent of Chaos (and an incredibly, over-the-top, damn good one at that) is a frightfully boring disclosure.

 

Well, other than that I like the Black Crusade part.

 

Oh, and I agree with the jeske!

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

My main problem with the Abyssal Crusade, is Phill's horrible notion that he has to name everything... badly too! Where am I supposed to fit in my DIY :D

 

That's the thing I am beginning to hate about GW. Before, they left enough in the dark to let our minds wonder. Now that they fleshed it all out it's less interesting. The Horus Heresy (for example) got a lot more bland the more details they added into it...

[spafe]

And yet for years people wanted more details on it! I don't normally defend GW over owt, but on this one I think they were onto a lose-lose situation so went with the version that made them(fw&bl) money.

 

I reckon they need to strike a balance between leaving some details in mystry. With regards to your own chapter, I thought some of the ones that turned during the crusade were 'unkown' so could be named what ever? maybe i'm misremembering.

 

On the topic of fluff, I love the little boxes with snapshots of different warbands (cleaved or purge springs to mind, whichever was the summoning ritual ones)

[Trevak Dal]

I think this maybe a problem of scale. If your a legion player the destruction of a planet or a loyalist chapter isnt anything awesome . 1k marines dead ? that is more or less what was dieing per hour durning the heresy .

interesting fluff is fluff about why someone does stuff. That is why DE or necron stuff was good [sW fluff too]. It explains the faction gives it more depth . The new dex makes legion guys crazy and random . + kelly tries to make me like huron which aint possible . a pirate renegade leader ? good idea. Second size army after abadon in less then 1k years after getting beaten to under 300 man ? ultramarine level fluff.

 

I wish they wrote stuff about demon worlds and how marines/cultists/demons live on those . how does marines daily life look like in the eye , when for everything there they are a snack .

 

victories are fine and good , but I dont need pating on the back to like my faction.

 

I'm with Jeske on Huron and the Red Corsairs. The Astral Claws (mostly their allies for most of the Badab Wars) got beaten beyond the point of return for most Space Marine chapters. 300 Astral Claw survivors, and maybe astartes allies numbering up to 700 or so, with ships falling apart around them with food, medical, and military supplies do not just "Bounce Back" after 400 years or so.

[Vesper]

I think this maybe a problem of scale. If your a legion player the destruction of a planet or a loyalist chapter isnt anything awesome . 1k marines dead ? that is more or less what was dieing per hour durning the heresy .

interesting fluff is fluff about why someone does stuff. That is why DE or necron stuff was good [sW fluff too]. It explains the faction gives it more depth . The new dex makes legion guys crazy and random . + kelly tries to make me like huron which aint possible . a pirate renegade leader ? good idea. Second size army after abadon in less then 1k years after getting beaten to under 300 man ? ultramarine level fluff.

 

I wish they wrote stuff about demon worlds and how marines/cultists/demons live on those . how does marines daily life look like in the eye , when for everything there they are a snack .

 

victories are fine and good , but I dont need pating on the back to like my faction.

 

I'm with Jeske on Huron and the Red Corsairs. The Astral Claws (mostly their allies for most of the Badab Wars) got beaten beyond the point of return for most Space Marine chapters. 300 Astral Claw survivors, and maybe astartes allies numbering up to 700 or so, with ships falling apart around them with food, medical, and military supplies do not just "Bounce Back" after 400 years or so.

 

But the whole point of the Badab War is that Huron isn't the average Chapter master.

Making him second to Abaddon only is clearly overkill, yet I do like the idea of a CSM pirate empire as it adds diversity to CSM. The only wrong thing with all the Red Corsair uberness is the scale. 400 years is clearly not enough. Or just change the all "second to Abaddon only" thingy. Other than that, I'm fine with it.

[Artein]

Abaddon bounced back after near extinction of the Sons of Horus. I believe it took him less then 400 years.

[the jeske]

But the whole point of the Badab War is that Huron isn't the average Chapter master.

you know the thing is it looks as if half of USSR , joins Polpot and after 25 years , the red khmer rival in size all communist factions . that is my problem with his fluff . he has more marines then legions and he gains supporters at a super speed while his own force is very small . 1k marines in the storm is nothing , WB had those in single warbands.

 

Yet, you're right, I would have prefered to have one well written report of the demise of a single chapter and have the rest resumed by a simple sentence.

while I agree with that , the bigger problem for me is how those marines fall. they go mad from dreams ? why dont they mind wipe themselfs . losing one battle and going chaos ? just like that , the fails safes dont kick in , the psycho indoctrination doesnt work , all ranked officers do not report it . It is too easy makes falling too chaos not a big deal.

How can the DG or 1ksons be tragic , if going chaos is soo easy? more important if falling is so easy , what is the rate of new chapter production , because imperials must replace them a lot [and that is just loses from chaos , not counting dieing out, gene instabilty , warp accidents and other xeno races] .

[Vesper]

But the whole point of the Badab War is that Huron isn't the average Chapter master.

you know the thing is it looks as if half of USSR , joins Polpot and after 25 years , the red khmer rival in size all communist factions . that is my problem with his fluff . he has more marines then legions and he gains supporters at a super speed while his own force is very small . 1k marines in the storm is nothing , WB had those in single warbands.

 

Yet, you're right, I would have prefered to have one well written report of the demise of a single chapter and have the rest resumed by a simple sentence.

while I agree with that , the bigger problem for me is how those marines fall. they go mad from dreams ? why dont they mind wipe themselfs . losing one battle and going chaos ? just like that , the fails safes dont kick in , the psycho indoctrination doesnt work , all ranked officers do not report it . It is too easy makes falling too chaos not a big deal.

How can the DG or 1ksons be tragic , if going chaos is soo easy? more important if falling is so easy , what is the rate of new chapter production , because imperials must replace them a lot [and that is just loses from chaos , not counting dieing out, gene instabilty , warp accidents and other xeno races] .

 

On the first quote, as I said, I think there's a scale issue, but Huron's comeback after such a beating ? Yeah, I like it, I like the whole pirate lord thingy. GW just screwed at the exact same point they always do : overkillyness everywhere.

 

On the second point, sure, there's many blank spaces and unanswered questions left after those pieces of fluff related to the Abyssal Crusade, nobody can deny that. Yet, I don't feel that there's an oversimplification of the "turning to Chaos" process as nothing is said on that topic. We can presume there's more about it that fills the blanks, and that is the reason I would have liked it to be more focused.

 

Abaddon bounced back after near extinction of the Sons of Horus. I believe it took him less then 400 years.

 

Abaddon and Huron weren't in the same situation.

[the jeske]

On the first quote, as I said, I think there's a scale issue, but Huron's comeback after such a beating ? Yeah, I like it, I like the whole pirate lord thingy. GW just screwed at the exact same point they always do

yeah I dont have anything about the pirate thing either . A grim and grity renegade lord . Cool idea . His fued with Mordrak ,could be an interesting thing . Mr McHuge-200k marines in line-second in size to Abadon , not realy.

 

Abaddon and Huron weren't in the same situation.

yes in the end abadon won the legion wars , he destroyed the horus clones , but took control of the EC gene facilities and he didnt start with 300 marines. + again there is a difference in joining abadon or even working for him and working for huron. I mean a gang boss from an international organisation would have huge problems working under a local mob boss .

[spafe]

On the marine turning to chaos so easy, I put that down to them being IN THE EYE OF TERROR!!! You know, that big scary place where no-one goes but renegades, deamons, and heretics (or as I like to call it, home). The place is basically a giant warprift, gazing into the warp while in real space a lot of the time, you know, that scary realm which merely glimsping send one completly looney? doesnt seem too far fetched, and the bits that do I can easily put down to the dex not being a rated 18+ book (do they do those, no not slaneshy ones! lol) so its been dumbed down/cleaned up for younger readers

[Vesper]

Of course. Yet, I (and it seems many other) wasn't really satisfied by the way the author made that fluff. The concept of the Abyssal Crusade is pretty cool, but the execution was a bit poor.

[Redtoof]

Of course. Yet, I (and it seems many other) wasn't really satisfied by the way the author made that fluff. The concept of the Abyssal Crusade is pretty cool, but the execution was a bit poor.

 

 

Good concept, poor execution? At least the fluff is consistant with the rules then. :lol:

[Spaz431]

I'm happy for so consistency on the overall, and some insights to the crusade plans, but did we really want C:CSM to resemble C:Matcrons. Retconning complete and massive chunks of fluff?

[Yogi]

This hating on huron... I must post.

 

Until ADB makes Abbaddon cool (if he can) with his book series he will always remain a colossal meathead failure. He comes across as real dumb. He kills his own ships in BFG when he gets angry, I'm surprised he doesn't rock a mustache he can occasionally twirl.

 

Huron on the other hand is fantastic. An ambitious leader who goes beyond his Imperial mandate gets betrayed by his own side is maimed and comes back even meaner then before. Using his brain he builds a huge spiteful empire in a short amount of time and isn't deluded because he never took part in the great crusade where "leaders" like Abba roflstomped in every battle due to having every advantage possible. He has actually faced limitations and understands he is not the greatest warrior evar!

 

The legions problem is they really are grumpy old men. If your not one of them you will never get anywhere in their hierarchy. (World Eaters are the exception, being merit based hierarchy via decapitation.)

 

So where do new renegades go given the choice? They go to the king renegade for glory, loot and victory.

 

If you only have a bus ticket to the Eye you have to join Abba paint your armor black out of a shame that isn't even yours and take orders from all the 10k year old losers who are above you in the hierarchy. Or you can join the even more elitist "other" legions who are all so eccentric and nuts.

 

WB "Have you read the book of Lorgar?" -- "No man stop asking!"

AL "What is the password?" -- "How would I know?"

NL "Boo!" -- "Ok"

IW "Position available for Garrison duty" -- "Yeah nah"

WE "Blood for the Blood God" -- *dies*

EC "You have a pretty mouth" -- 'NewRenegade420 has left the conversation'

TS "Are you a wizard?" -- "No"

DG "Pus and flatulence!" -- *Barfs*

 

Who is going to purposely join any legion warband like that?

 

And pol pot.. really? The guy who killed people for wearing glasses, sounds more like something Abbadabbadon would do. No Abba and the legions are like Western Europe (lots of cultures and bickering and division) and Huron is like a weaker America (far more united).

 

So Huron is better. Wants to increase his numbers (not as an afterthought like BL), fights wars he can win (piracy, raiding etc)

 

Abbadon is worse. Want to kill the Emprah (get in line buddy). Kills his own guys, wastes his own forces on too hard targets, is super arrogant and not very smart.

 

I actually think Drachneyn the sword is the one giving orders through his meat puppet Abbadon, in fact that explains everything.

 

 

As for the new chaos codex fluff, that crusade was sort of cool with all the new renegades. But I dislike how some guys just went swimming in some blood and were suddenly dedicated to Khorne. I prefer when Chaos corruption occurs based on the personality flaws, rather then like getting irradiated by chaos and being corrupted. Overall the new codex was boring.

[spafe]

The legions problem is they really are grumpy old men. If your not one of them you will never get anywhere in their hierarchy. (World Eaters are the exception, being merit based hierarchy via decapitation.)

 

You mean in the World eaters you have to be 'head and shoulders' above the competition? (sorry, I'll get my coat)

[Vesper]

This hating on huron... I must post.

 

Until ADB makes Abbaddon cool (if he can) with his book series he will always remain a colossal meathead failure. He comes across as real dumb. He kills his own ships in BFG when he gets angry, I'm surprised he doesn't rock a mustache he can occasionally twirl.

 

Huron on the other hand is fantastic. An ambitious leader who goes beyond his Imperial mandate gets betrayed by his own side is maimed and comes back even meaner then before. Using his brain he builds a huge spiteful empire in a short amount of time and isn't deluded because he never took part in the great crusade where "leaders" like Abba roflstomped in every battle due to having every advantage possible. He has actually faced limitations and understands he is not the greatest warrior evar!

(...)

So Huron is better. Wants to increase his numbers (not as an afterthought like BL), fights wars he can win (piracy, raiding etc)

 

Abbadon is worse. Want to kill the Emprah (get in line buddy). Kills his own guys, wastes his own forces on too hard targets, is super arrogant and not very smart.

 

I actually think Drachneyn the sword is the one giving orders through his meat puppet Abbadon, in fact that explains everything.

 

I think you are making a lot of this by yourself, as there's in fact few fluff pieces about Abaddon in 40k (Can't wait ADB to write on him, really).

You're oversimplifying a lot. First, the guys who take the black don't do that by shame (that was one of the reasons the SoH took it, with the mourning and desire for revenge but that was 10k years ago), now it's a vow of hatred, to get on a crusade that will destroy the Imperium. But the thing is Huron seems pretty shortsighted. He does not make any war (until someone proves me otherwise, raids and piracy aren't wars)... He doesn't do much. And that's fine, because he's nothing more than a pirate lord. A talented one, indeed, but nothing more.

 

 

As for the new chaos codex fluff, that crusade was sort of cool with all the new renegades. But I dislike how some guys just went swimming in some blood and were suddenly dedicated to Khorne. I prefer when Chaos corruption occurs based on the personality flaws, rather then like getting irradiated by chaos and being corrupted. Overall the new codex was boring.

Indeed.