Drudge Dreadnought Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I've seen lots of lists lately using 10 man cultist squads as objective campers, or even as front line units. Usually they are the 65 point 10 man squad with rifles and a heavy stubber, or the 55 point 10 guys with CCWs and a flamer. Are these squads worthwhile? I question their viability because they seem roughly equivalent to 5 basic bolter marines, and nobody ever uses those. 5 marines is 75 points. With their t4 and 3+, they are harder to kill than a 10 man squad of cultists with their t3 and 6+. Even if the cultists have cover, the marines will live longer against anything except high str low AP weapons. The cultists will get easily mopped by even lasguns, and are much less efficient at surviving than the marines. Even in the old codex where we got the same marines with bolter, pistol, and CCW, 5 naked marines was never worth using. So why are 10 man cultist squads, which seem to be roughly equivalent, if slightly cheaper? CCW cultists are slightly more efficient, but if camping objectives are completely unable to contribute to shooting. And even 10 str 3, t3 6+ models won't do anything significant in CC, even to weak ranged troops. The only thing I can think of is to have the heavy stubber (which is str 4 at least) and have it whittle at things with it's longer range, while sitting in cover on an objective. But that still just seems lackluster, and not enough to justify how easy cultists are to wipe for first blood or whatever points the current scenario gives for squad kills. Has anyone else considered this comparison, or has anyone used these sorts of cultist squads who can comment? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I encountered a few min marine squads, one at a tournament, hiding in 2 landraiders (was his only troops, 2x5 marines at 1750 points), and he beat my draigo wing... I have 2 cultist squads in current 1500 point force, thats 110 points for 2x10 cultists with a flamer. I also have a "spare" rhino that one of my plague marine squads doesn't need due to a landraider. While when it explodes it does them some damage, you can use them to slow down enemy units and they can always go to ground for a nice cover save. 110 points doesn't buy me another plague marine squad, but 2 scoring units to distract the enemy or camp objective's for 110 points is a steal, just don't expect them to do much more (and keep the champion back so they can regroup more easily when they run away :lol: ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 I encountered a few min marine squads, one at a tournament, hiding in 2 landraiders (was his only troops, 2x5 marines at 1750 points), and he beat my draigo wing... I have 2 cultist squads in current 1500 point force, thats 110 points for 2x10 cultists with a flamer. I also have a "spare" rhino that one of my plague marine squads doesn't need due to a landraider. While when it explodes it does them some damage, you can use them to slow down enemy units and they can always go to ground for a nice cover save. 110 points doesn't buy me another plague marine squad, but 2 scoring units to distract the enemy or camp objective's for 110 points is a steal, just don't expect them to do much more (and keep the champion back so they can regroup more easily when they run away :lol: ). Ah yes, I did forget that min marine squads could be used in land raider lists. But I think the competitiveness of those is debatable. It's not that these units are useless, but 110 points is not trivial. That's nearly another lascannon sponson pred, or a dreadnought, or termicide, small melta bike squad, etc. All of which would also distract the enemy (but aren't scoring, to be fair.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaz431 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Avis defense line is 50 points and provides 4+cover for troops. Oh and for 50 points max, you can put a heavy gun on it for your guys to tear ass with or a commas relay to get reserves in faster. There literally better uses for 100 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Well that's a better use for your 100pts if what you want is some cover and a quad gun, sure, but if what you want is a couple cheap scoring units, cultists aren't a bad way of doing that. They'll never do any damage and they'll crumple like a wet cloth if anything hits them, but more scoring units is almost allways a useful thing. also, wait, people are using our trash heap of a landraider? I thought prettymuch everyone had written it off in disgust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kythnos Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 also, wait, people are using our trash heap of a landraider? I thought prettymuch everyone had written it off in disgust. Of course! And my enemies tremble with fear if they see that monstrosity on the field and speeding towards their battle line :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I've been using some 10 man Cultist units (with Flamer) as an objective grabber - I just keep them in cover until turn 4 or 5 and then make an objective run. People seem to ignore them more than they would CSM's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyWretch Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 My Cultists surprised me last night! Against Eldar where the S3 goesn't really hinderer them. The Flamer took my opponent by surprise when I was trying to nudge him off and Objective he was contesting by hiding the other side of a wall. Wumf! 3 of his 4 guys died. Then I assaulted and took him out, consolidated onto Objective. Boom! Even the Autogun squad shined! Coincidentally, that unit was next to a 5 man Marine squad with a flamer. Both proved resilliant- taking out Scorpions- but the Cultists just REALLY kept fighting. Think that squad had mark of Nurgle, so it was just a cheaper, bigger squad of Marines with slightly nerfed guns. Must invest in Typhus and more Cultists. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Think that squad had mark of Nurgle, so it was just a cheaper, bigger squad of Marines with slightly nerfed guns. how did you give your cultists a +3sv then? point for point cultists which buy more models instead of MoN survive longer . but back to why take them . some people dont want to run IG . others have minimax builds and somehow thing that 10 t3 naked dudes survive longer then t4 +3sv ones . then there is puting on objective far far away from any combat and siting on it , out of LoS of course , with cultists . cultists work horrible in melee and meh at shoting . ah they are also good bubble wraps for havocks [again if someone doesnt want to use IG]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyWretch Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Think that squad had mark of Nurgle, so it was just a cheaper, bigger squad of Marines with slightly nerfed guns. how did you give your cultists a +3sv then? point for point cultists which buy more models instead of MoN survive longer . but back to why take them . some people dont want to run IG . others have minimax builds and somehow thing that 10 t3 naked dudes survive longer then t4 +3sv ones . then there is puting on objective far far away from any combat and siting on it , out of LoS of course , with cultists . cultists work horrible in melee and meh at shoting . ah they are also good bubble wraps for havocks [again if someone doesnt want to use IG]. Mine worked fine. For some reason they just didn't die easy- oh, I'm SO SORRY, I forgot that Luck doesn't facto into your MathHammer. How silly I am for trying something different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spafe Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Mine worked fine. For some reason they just didn't die easy- oh, I'm SO SORRY, I forgot that Luck doesn't facto into your MathHammer. How silly I am for trying something different. I'm all for different stuff, but saying you need luck to use it doesnt help your case. saying they fit with the theme, your running an epi list, you have cool models for them or something like that I can get on board with, but saying you like them cos you got lucky doesnt make sense. Sorry, just wondering as I had similar ponderings with someone last week on the tzeentch forum about their cultists, and didnt understand then either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyWretch Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Mine worked fine. For some reason they just didn't die easy- oh, I'm SO SORRY, I forgot that Luck doesn't facto into your MathHammer. How silly I am for trying something different. I'm all for different stuff, but saying you need luck to use it doesnt help your case. saying they fit with the theme, your running an epi list, you have cool models for them or something like that I can get on board with, but saying you like them cos you got lucky doesnt make sense. Sorry, just wondering as I had similar ponderings with someone last week on the tzeentch forum about their cultists, and didnt understand then either. I didn't field them because I was lucky with them. I fielded them for the first time just to try them out, and for some reason they just did really well. I'm not saying they always will- or ever will again, but against Eldar their S3 weapons aren't as bad as they seem. And mine did well. I wasn't expecting it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spafe Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Makes sense, good luck with them then, although for the record, more of them is better not jsut for outlasting, but also more shots to inflict more damage quicker (unless your cheap like me and cant really afford more models atm lol) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3257864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 When I first used cultists, I used them with autoguns as objective campers, and I was pleasently suprised. Two units of 10 were holding objectives on my board side and a drop pod hit nearby. They were able to take out the tactical squad that dropped out a lot faster than bolter marines could have. I don't think my opponent was expecting it at all. I honestly didn't count on it either, but 40 shots is a lot of dice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3258113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarlordEXE Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 When I first used cultists, I used them with autoguns as objective campers, and I was pleasently suprised. Two units of 10 were holding objectives on my board side and a drop pod hit nearby. They were able to take out the tactical squad that dropped out a lot faster than bolter marines could have. I don't think my opponent was expecting it at all. I honestly didn't count on it either, but 40 shots is a lot of dice. So what exactly was he thinking when he decided he wasn't going to off your cultists? Their scoring, and a full strength yes a ton of shots can cause a couple unsaved wounds, but in all honesty he should have lit one of those squads up. I wouldn't write that off on cultists with autoguns being effective but rather then a possible luck factor in the event your opponent forgets what a lot of dice can do. Cultists in my mind should sit on objectives and die horrible deaths so the more loot you givem the more your gona loose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3258159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Think that squad had mark of Nurgle, so it was just a cheaper, bigger squad of Marines with slightly nerfed guns. how did you give your cultists a +3sv then? point for point cultists which buy more models instead of MoN survive longer . but back to why take them . some people dont want to run IG . others have minimax builds and somehow thing that 10 t3 naked dudes survive longer then t4 +3sv ones . then there is puting on objective far far away from any combat and siting on it , out of LoS of course , with cultists . cultists work horrible in melee and meh at shoting . ah they are also good bubble wraps for havocks [again if someone doesnt want to use IG]. It is true that in a direct point comparison IG are cheaper for better troops, but that misses the FOC/Peripherals that it takes to get IG. Some people just want an objective sitter and have only 50-70 pts to spare. You can get a vet squad for 70, but you also need the HQ which is another 50 and that is with both being naked. You can get infantry squads for less points yet, but then you need the platoon command squad and an HQ in addition. What happens is that you have to start devoting more and more of your list to IG. I will grant that IG are better in every respect than cultists except the ease of slotting them into the list. That is what it comes down to if you are choosing cultists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267453-cultists-as-objective-campers/#findComment-3258213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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