Mephiston

[Sokhar]

I read. Your point was you have to go to hover to disembark and get that charge (presumably on turn 3). I pointed out that its still do-able without ever going to hover, by doing Skies of Blood turn 2. Its a bit more variable because of the scatter, but presumably you'll use Skies near where the Raven ends its movement turn 2, so you end up with a very comparable situation.

[liberate_tutame]

a bit more variable because of the scatter...so you end up with a very comparable situation.

 

Yeah, but why? Why take the risk of scattering onto terrain? You zoom upto 36" onto the board, so that's (usually) 12" beyond your deployment zone. With that range Mephy could simply spend his first turn walking and make the same distance without Skies of Blood.

 

Look, you gain nothing with putting him in a Stormraven. And lose quite a bit, because now the turn Mephy enters depends on a dice roll, his deployment becomes less certain (using skies or going into hover fora turn), and if going for Biomancy his Psychic powers become uncertain.

 

It boils down to the fact that if you can't hide a fleeting flying Space marine sized model from your opponents plasma then you're unlikely to win, because as has been said again and again, you want Mephy to be on the table, messing with your opponents mind and strategy.

[Zhukov]

I read. Your point was you have to go to hover to disembark and get that charge (presumably on turn 3). I pointed out that its still do-able without ever going to hover, by doing Skies of Blood turn 2. Its a bit more variable because of the scatter, but presumably you'll use Skies near where the Raven ends its movement turn 2, so you end up with a very comparable situation.

In that case you got the rules wrong I'm afraid: You are not allowed to charge when disembarking by using the 'skies of blood' rule.

[Polythemus]

Zhukov if you want to charge on turn 3 there are two ways to do it.

 

you can use skies of blood to drop from a zooming flyer turn 2when it arrives and next turn (3) you move and assault.

 

Or you can zoom turn 2, then on turn 3 move 6" and hover and assault straight out of the flyer via assault ramp. Then boom goes the dynamite.

[Sokhar]

Liberate: If you look back at the posts you'll notice I said DON'T put Mephiston in the Raven. I always advocate for using Wings instead, its just a better option to me. My comments were in the vein of "Well if you insist on putting him in a Raven, here's how you get the turn 3 charge without using Hover mode." Probably easy to overlook in the shuffle, but the suggestion was to make the best out of a sub-par situation. Personally I'd never trade his powers or put him in a Raven unless there's something that can absolutely wreck him on the table. Or if facing Eldar with runes.

 

Zhukov: Dude, please read my posts in their entirety. Nowhere did I say you get a turn 2 charge. I said you use Skies of Blood turn 2 after the Raven moves on, to set up your turn 3 charge. Deep striking out of the back of the Raven turn 2 will put you roughly where you'd be if you switched to Hover mode on turn 3--you miss out on the 6" move from the Raven and deal with potential inaccuracy from the deep strike rather than normal disembark. But it avoids the Raven ever going into hover. Again, I'd much rather move Mephiston with just wings. But for the people that want to have Meph onboard a bird and don't want to risk their Raven dropping into Hover mode, that's the way to do it.

[Brother Maikel]

Yeah, but why? Why take the risk of scattering onto terrain? You zoom upto 36" onto the board, so that's (usually) 12" beyond your deployment zone. With that range Mephy could simply spend his first turn walking and make the same distance without Skies of Blood.

 

Look, you gain nothing with putting him in a Stormraven. And lose quite a bit, because now the turn Mephy enters depends on a dice roll, his deployment becomes less certain (using skies or going into hover fora turn), and if going for Biomancy his Psychic powers become uncertain.

 

What it gains for you is versatility. If you deploy Mephy on the board his absolute maximum threat range by T3 is 24" move + 2d6" run + 2d6" charge from the spot that you deploy him. In the case of the Raven, it's ~30" flight + 1d6" run + 12" move + 2d6" charge if you keep Codex powers, or 6" move if you take BRB powers, from any point on your edge of the board. Furthermore, especially if you deploy first, you deny your opponent the knowledge of where Mephy is going to show up, and what units he's going to threaten.

 

Scattering into terrain is not a big deal. 2/3 chance of scatter * 1/6 chance of failing terrain test * 1/6 chance of failing armour save = 1.85% chance of taking a wound, assuming all scatter puts you into terrain.

 

Also, the zoom is only 12" beyond your deployment zone if you have Hammer and Anvil deployment. In Dawn of War the DZ is only 12" deep, and in Vanguard the DZ is variably deep, giving the Raven deployment the edge on ~2/3s of the board and board deployment the edge in the other 1/3.

 

I'm not saying putting Mephy in a Raven is always the right decision, just that it's not something to automatically disregard.

[Leonaides]

Maikel - to simplify - Mephs maximum possible threat range is 18" move on turn 1 (12" WoS movement plus running) and a possible 12" charge if required (total 30") or turn 2 he could make an additional 18" move (for a total of 48" from his starting point). Thats all the way across a 4ft wide board if you deployed him on the back edge of your deployment zone... Hell, if you deploy him in the middle of your zone length-wise and at/near the front of your zone there's nowhere on a normal battlefield he cannot potentially reach in CC by turn 2. On turn 3 that becomes 66".

 

How far further do you really need to get??????????????????????????

[Brother Maikel]

Mephy has an average of 24" (wings) + ~9" (running, incl rerolls) movement by the end of T2. You can't charge if you run, so that only adds another ~9" avg movement (4d6 instead of 2d6), assuming you have two suitable charge targets in the exact direction you're going, you can wipe them out in at most two rounds of combat, and you make your charges. You've got a maximum average distance of 24"+18" = 42" threat range from your deployment position, assuming everything goes right.

 

Take away the charges, since there's absolutely no guarantee your opponent will cooperate with your plan, and you're down to 24" + 9" = 33". That's less than half the board. If you deploy Mephy on the right flank and your opponent castles on your left flank, you're not going to make the charge until T4, even with Wings. Toss in the need to worry about line of sight blocking terrain and avoiding units like TH/SS termies that can absolutely pulp Mephy, and your effective threat range is a lot smaller. Contrast this with the raven that doesn't have to worry about where it gets deployed, since it can appear from anywhere along your table edge you want it to.

 

Even if you deploy Mephy centrally, having to avoid enemy units you don't want to tangle with (fearless tarpits, enemy challengers w/2+ & AP2, GK or TH/SS Termies, etc) limits where you can send him and still have him be effective. By putting him on the table to start with you give your opponent information that he can use to counter your deployment. You may want to do this, to draw him out of position, or you may not want to, to make sure he must defend from all angles.

 

Again, I'm not saying that you should always deploy him in a Raven, or even most of the time. Just that under some circumstances it is a valid and useful tactic.

[Crynn]

I actually run mephy in a raven in most of my games but that is because I run a 3 raven list and I practically have nothing on the board for the first turn. if meph was on the board he would be shot to death or be so far at the back of the board he would be useless. My army is very specific to me and my exceedingly odd play style as it has been described. My armies are all about domination the movement phase and abusing deployment.

 

In general though I would not condone putting him in a raven, he is better off in most cases, starting with the army so he is able to effect the game earlier. and more reliably. I ahve been using Mephy for the whole of 5th ed and most of 6th. He is an amazing tool and very flexible. there will be times where the raven is the best use as will be swapping his powers for biomancy and divination.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[TheHarrower]

Definitely on the board. Been using Mephiston a lot lately and he brings much more to the game when your opponent is staring him down. Everyone already covered the whole assaulting on turn 3 thing which is such a waste. Put him on the board and put the fear of God into your opponent.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Dunno man. It's even more points you put into the Ravens. I personally preffer having more units on the board so I can afford a Raven coming up late.

 

If my Ravens were empty, that would be fine, but since they are carrying a significant portion of my army, I can't afford that.

 

I vote for Mephiston on board 95% of the times. Why? Stormraven + Mephy equals nearly 500 points while Mephy wont do anything the turn the Raven comes on. This is like playing with a deathstar which is not on the table: The rest of your army will suffer greatly in its absence.

 

Realistically, the only difference is that your assault is delayed by a turn (unless you have REALLY :cussty luck) and you can't count on his presence to affect board control. What you gain in return is the ability to have Mephy precisely where you need him and the potentially devastating combos that can come out of rolling on Biomancy.

 

And unless I'm mistaken (can't check from here and this is what I remember) the Stormraven has to go in non-flier mode the turn Mephy wants to disembark and charge. Which basicly means you just sacrificed the Stormraven. Not good.

 

As other have mentionned, if the LZ is too hot, just paradrop him on T2 instead.

[Crynn]

For what it is worth, biomancy can be over rated on Mephiston. Divination is just as powerfull in buffing him much of the time.

[Brother Kovash]

I've always used Mephy on the board. Usually I'll hide him behind a rhino or Assault squad to make sure he doesn't get shot up first turn, then use him to unleash hell on turn 2. By the time he enters your opponent's side of the board, he'll draw focused fire, allowing the rest of your army to run free.

[Morticon]

Even if you deploy Mephy centrally, having to avoid enemy units you don't want to tangle with (fearless tarpits, enemy challengers w/2+ & AP2, GK or TH/SS Termies, etc) limits where you can send him and still have him be effective. By putting him on the table to start with you give your opponent information that he can use to counter your deployment. You may want to do this, to draw him out of position, or you may not want to, to make sure he must defend from all angles.

 

While I think this is a very valid, and necessary factor to consider, I feel there is another side of this coin that needs to be looked at. The first is part of that is in who is deploying first. If the opponent is deploying first (and at all smart), they will deploy both to the mission objective and to counter what's in your army. In this case, keeping him guessing is great. In the case of him deploying second, if the opponent has to change his plan of action, and either has to set up in such a way to counter mephy, or play in a way he doesnt want to...then great!!!

 

You as a good player should already have expected that by seeing what's in his list and thought of the counter to the counter. Good players will not outsmart each other in 1 strategic phase, prize will be to whomever has thought the more steps ahead. I feel that the more you force an opponent to play on the back foot, the better. Mephy is amazing for area denial for example. He doesnt have to go rushing off into the blue yonder - he can win games by drawing those counter units away or to a different area. You can deploy him away from the mission objectives and with his speed dictate what is happening where.

 

Putting him in a Raven is not all bad if you deploy first. But the opponent has 2 full turns of shooting at your army and free movement to play as he pleases. (3 if he goes first!) Now, this is the kicker. Having Meph on the board means that from turn one, he is forced to react and change tactics to suit wherever you put Mephiston.

 

This is a strategy that just cannot, and should not be overlooked. You must use this to your advantage, not disadvantage, and I believe we do this by thinking a few steps ahead.

 

 

Again, I'm not saying that you should always deploy him in a Raven, or even most of the time. Just that under some circumstances it is a valid and useful tactic.

 

Agreed. Ive done the same. Though, I think 9 times out of 10 I've had him on board.

[Zhukov]

you can use skies of blood to drop from a zooming flyer turn 2when it arrives and next turn (3) you move and assault.

I know you can :D

 

Zhukov: Dude, please read my posts in their entirety. Nowhere did I say you get a turn 2 charge.

I did. Read again what I said, last attempt, if you still don't get it I give up:

 

the Stormraven has to go in non-flier mode the turn Mephy wants to disembark and charge. Which basicly means you just sacrificed the Stormraven. Not good.

 

You said I wasn't entirely right. I am. That's all I said and it's true is it not?

 

 

Using skies of blood to deliver Mephiston is a different matter. I'm willing to give my opinion on that to if you want: I think it's an option which will practicly never be usefull. It means your Raven has to fly over the spot where you want Mephy to try and land, meaning you hinder the Raven his movement. It also means you rely on deepstriking, which we all know can be very random: Mephiston might just end up standing in the open or worse. Basicly, if you know you wont be able to hover and actually deliver Mephiston in assault then one can really wonder why you wouldn't just put Mephiston on the board instead. But well who knows, might be usefull 1 out of 100 games.

[Remmy]

Leave yourself flexible. I enjoy having Both Mephiston and a storm raven in every "strong" list that I write. Also most of my troop choices are combat squaddable. If the situation arrises where meph won't be able to get across the field without getting shot up you have the option to stick him in the stormraven. Otherwise you have the option to toss some non killy troops in the raven for late game objective grabbing.

[Brother Maikel]

While I think this is a very valid, and necessary factor to consider, I feel there is another side of this coin that needs to be looked at. The first is part of that is in who is deploying first. If the opponent is deploying first (and at all smart), they will deploy both to the mission objective and to counter what's in your army. In this case, keeping him guessing is great. In the case of him deploying second, if the opponent has to change his plan of action, and either has to set up in such a way to counter mephy, or play in a way he doesnt want to...then great!!!

 

You as a good player should already have expected that by seeing what's in his list and thought of the counter to the counter. Good players will not outsmart each other in 1 strategic phase, prize will be to whomever has thought the more steps ahead. I feel that the more you force an opponent to play on the back foot, the better. Mephy is amazing for area denial for example. He doesnt have to go rushing off into the blue yonder - he can win games by drawing those counter units away or to a different area. You can deploy him away from the mission objectives and with his speed dictate what is happening where.

 

Putting him in a Raven is not all bad if you deploy first. But the opponent has 2 full turns of shooting at your army and free movement to play as he pleases. (3 if he goes first!) Now, this is the kicker. Having Meph on the board means that from turn one, he is forced to react and change tactics to suit wherever you put Mephiston.

 

This is a strategy that just cannot, and should not be overlooked. You must use this to your advantage, not disadvantage, and I believe we do this by thinking a few steps ahead.

 

Just because Mephy isn't on the board doesn't mean he's not affecting an opponent's deployment and/or play.

 

As you noted, placing him on the board has a good chance of drawing counter units towards him, or at least towards his side of the board. This may be a good thing if those counters are also good against other elements of your army, or if you can use Mephy to entice your opponent into overextending.

 

On the other hand, keeping Mephy in reserve may cause your opponent to deploy and/or play more cautiously. Since they don't know which direction he'll come from, and chances are they'll have only a single turn of shooting & maneuver in order to counter him once he arrives, anything they want (or need) to use to specifically counter Mephy must be kept very close to what it is trying to protect. In a game where you have the initiative (more objectives, many more scoring units, good chance of first blood/warlord) keeping your opponent guessing as to where Mephy will show up can cause an opponent to play more cautiously than they probably should.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Leave yourself flexible. I enjoy having Both Mephiston and a storm raven in every "strong" list that I write. Also most of my troop choices are combat squaddable. If the situation arrises where meph won't be able to get across the field without getting shot up you have the option to stick him in the stormraven. Otherwise you have the option to toss some non killy troops in the raven for late game objective grabbing.

 

Exactly. I'll probably use both ways depending on the situation, which is why I love the ravens. They add a good layer of flexibility and thematic flavor to my lists.

 

Reflecting on what everyone has said, I think most of the time I'll leave Mephiston out of the raven. My list needs a more threatening presence on the ground very early to take some pressure off my RAS. Also, when I make my custom mephy model I wanna slap him on the table for as long as possible. The more time my opponent stares in awe at his FABULOUS epicness, the better. ;)

[Xenith]

If your opponent shoots the ravens, he doesnt shoot Mephy and loses.

 

If your opponent shoots the Mephy, he doesnt shoot the Ravens and loses.

What if he shoots both?

 

Then they're spreading their fire too thinly, and will kill neither.

 

That, or you put Mephy within range of two quad plasma squads, in which case you deserve to lose.

 

When properly supported (Fnp+Cover), it'll take something like 12 lascannon (or equivalent S8+, AP2 or better) wounds, 14 hits, ~21 shots to take down Mephiston.

 

If your opponent still has enough firepower to take down a Stormraven after that...then the other 1000/1500pts of your army have just walked away from being shot to pieces. Assault those guns to hell next turn.

[Zhukov]

If your opponent shoots the ravens, he doesnt shoot Mephy and loses.

 

If your opponent shoots the Mephy, he doesnt shoot the Ravens and loses.

What if he shoots both?

 

Then they're spreading their fire too thinly, and will kill neither.

 

That, or you put Mephy within range of two quad plasma squads, in which case you deserve to lose.

 

When properly supported (Fnp+Cover), it'll take something like 12 lascannon (or equivalent S8+, AP2 or better) wounds, 14 hits, ~21 shots to take down Mephiston.

 

If your opponent still has enough firepower to take down a Stormraven after that...then the other 1000/1500pts of your army have just walked away from being shot to pieces. Assault those guns to hell next turn.

So the oppenent always loses?

[Xenith]

If your opponent shoots the ravens, he doesnt shoot Mephy and loses.

 

If your opponent shoots the Mephy, he doesnt shoot the Ravens and loses.

What if he shoots both?

 

Then they're spreading their fire too thinly, and will kill neither.

 

That, or you put Mephy within range of two quad plasma squads, in which case you deserve to lose.

 

When properly supported (Fnp+Cover), it'll take something like 12 lascannon (or equivalent S8+, AP2 or better) wounds, 14 hits, ~21 shots to take down Mephiston.

 

If your opponent still has enough firepower to take down a Stormraven after that...then the other 1000/1500pts of your army have just walked away from being shot to pieces. Assault those guns to hell next turn.

So the oppenent always loses?

 

The only way to win, is not to play (against me).

[Zhukov]

If your opponent shoots the ravens, he doesnt shoot Mephy and loses.

 

If your opponent shoots the Mephy, he doesnt shoot the Ravens and loses.

What if he shoots both?

 

Then they're spreading their fire too thinly, and will kill neither.

 

That, or you put Mephy within range of two quad plasma squads, in which case you deserve to lose.

 

When properly supported (Fnp+Cover), it'll take something like 12 lascannon (or equivalent S8+, AP2 or better) wounds, 14 hits, ~21 shots to take down Mephiston.

 

If your opponent still has enough firepower to take down a Stormraven after that...then the other 1000/1500pts of your army have just walked away from being shot to pieces. Assault those guns to hell next turn.

So the oppenent always loses?

 

The only way to win, is not to play (against me).

:eek

[Ushtarador]

Now THAT is an argument :)

[First0f0ne]

Dreads being carried by a raven take a str 10 hit, not a str 10 ap 2 hit.

 

The rule says the model takes a str 10 hit that ignores armor saves, that is not the same thing as AP2 (at least when it comes to vehicles).

 

Also If it is a death company Dread, While yes its an auto pen it does nothing besides a hull point on a 1, 2, or a 3 of the damage chart.

 

 

 

With the whole mehpie argument, you people must never play hammer and anvil or against a IG or tau gun line. You speak as if you get him into combat every game in turn 2 with a target of your choosing.

 

Ravens are a decent(perhaps not the best), Viable way to deliver. Dreads, Mephie, and to lesser extent small DC units.