Ragnars Claw Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hi guys, Just after a quick bit of advice. In my mind the power axe is better value vs T4 and less whilst the fist is better vs T5 and more. Is this right? Do the numbers and other peoples experience bear this out? Are wolf guard still worth taking as squad leaders even! Thanks in advance for any help :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Well, since no one's answered you so far I'll chime in. This is only my opinion mind you. Neither really. I do take Wolf Guard, but I rarely give them more than a Power sword. They will be accepting challenges and I1 isn't very good when dealing with other army HQs with higher initiative. You're increasing the cost of your model while decreasing the chances that they'll manage to do anything to justify said points. Putting a power fist on a WG attached to a squad is a waste of points imo. As far as the Power Axes goes? I take that on a regular GH so that my opponent can't just feed him a cheap Sgt to avoid having AP 2 wounds on the rest of his unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3259154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizara Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have asked this same question myself, and my wolfguard leaders in general either have power swords or frostblades. The reason is simple, they strike at iniative. They do become characters so they have to deal with challenges, so I have opted to keep my wolf guard leaders with iniative weapons. The extra points spent on frostblades only improves their dmg, and these wolfguard I only put in with units that might be running with a character who doesn't pack the punch, say my wolf priest who gets to stun some guys, but isn't bringing the hurt. I have found in discussions that power axes and fists are better suited on the pack members who can take them, as they can't be singled out as easily now, so as they will strike last, it allows them to still get in their swings. I do have one wolf guard leader with a wolfclaw, cause he came with a claw and just looks cool, and it gives his small pack some rerolls, and I have one wolf guard leader with a fist, but hes also got a storm shield and TDA, so he can survive long enough to use it. In general, its just cheaper and better to give them WGL a power sword as its cheap, strikes at initiative and still be ap3 attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3259269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 lately I've been using my WG only in TDA and as such able to pack most weapons (I'm running a unit tomorrow of 5 w/ 4 TH/SS - cheesy perhaps but brutal especially nowadays with 2+/3++ being so good) - but my normal wolf packs carry either power axe/maul/sword, all same cost, no challenging out and still able to hit back :lol: - if I run WG either without TDA or at least without SS then I'll go non-Init. 1 weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3259293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatGrinder Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 TDA with a fist and combiwep is the way to go. He eats anything ap3 and hes tough in combat unless his opponent is rocking ap2, and even then, chances are you strike simultaniously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3259546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Sure, a sword/claw is great for duels against 3+ saves. But it's useless against 2+. An axe is great against 2+. You'll generally be far cheaper than the foe you're challenging but nevertheless will have a fighting chance. Sure, a terminator with an @init weapon will probably beat you. But why give a terminator an @init AP3 weapon? It doesn't seem like a wise choice. Therefore, assuming your foe made a wise choice of weaponry for their TDA models, you're probably costing most opponents more points than you'd lose by accepting a challenge with them. So the way I see it, swords or claws are an OK choice unless you'll be facing 2+ saves, in which case they're pretty crap. Oh, and that was assuming you meant power armored WGPLs. Don't take swords or claws on TDA WGPLs... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 why the bloody hell not? a WGPL in TDA with a powerfist and wolfclaw is 48 pts and can handle prettymuch anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnars Claw Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Thanks for the replies guys :lol: Think i'll be going combi weapon and axe for the majority with a combi weapon and wolf claw for my chaff killers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 why the bloody hell not? a WGPL in TDA with a powerfist and wolfclaw is 48 pts and can handle prettymuch anything. Of course that's ok. I was assuming the other hand held a combi weapon. Should have made that clearer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Generally I like axes on my Grey Hunters and Swords on my Pack Leaders. Why? Because you cant challenge out a GH, so he can chop away all day long on TDA troops etc- no problem. The WGPL I want to be striking faster, so hes not taken out by an enemy Sarge without a chance to strike back. Though I rarely take WGPLs anyways- I prefer the second special weapon in my transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 i dont know why people prefer the axe just because the off chance you face a terminator? Most opponents will be tactical marines, xenos, etc. Most armies have maybe 1 unit of Terminators. Take a power sword to kill 90% of the units you will be in combat with, then let the Terminators over to your shooting, elite units, or let them walk around if they are footsloggers. Yes terminator HQ, they are a pain, but you will be dead anyways, fist, axe or sword. Doesnt matter. It's mainly for those terminator sergeants, and there is maybe 1 of those sergeants in a marine army.. Don't think you should equip your wolf guard just in case you see that. Rather equip it with something that can handle you KNOW you will face. Edit: i was talking about WGPL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 as early and what I'm running this evening (mainly due to facing necrons) I'm packing ten-tons of plasma (I like outflanking with an AssCan TDAWG and 10 Hunters with PP & 2 PGs, plus a WP with a PP), this will allow me to survive the return firepower (likely to be heavy as he runs a fair few tesla tank thingies), and still make a hefty dent - but I always pack a Power Axe (or Fist if I'm likely to face Dreads/Other Walkers) on a Hunter and allow my Termies to have something hitting at Init. - as Grey Mage said, you want these guys to take the challenges and win BEFORE you opponent strikes back - now if you've got an I1 AP2 Fist or Axe sure it's great against those Terminators you MIGHT face - but there will deffo be more than one, so you're only saving one guy's attacks that may take your guy out (as we all know, you may only need a 2+ but on 3 D6 if you end up with a 1 he's dead anyway) - so take a Sword on him so if there's no challenge he can slaughter with the rest of the pack (and benefit from any perks they have - Wolf Priest, Standard etc.) and your regular joe Hunter can still take on a coupla termies and force THEM to roll 2-3 D6 needing 5's - a much better prospect imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 i dont know why people prefer the axe just because the off chance you face a terminator? Most opponents will be tactical marines, xenos, etc. Most armies have maybe 1 unit of Terminators. Take a power sword to kill 90% of the units you will be in combat with, then let the Terminators over to your shooting, elite units, or let them walk around if they are footsloggers. Yes terminator HQ, they are a pain, but you will be dead anyways, fist, axe or sword. Doesnt matter. It's mainly for those terminator sergeants, and there is maybe 1 of those sergeants in a marine army.. Don't think you should equip your wolf guard just in case you see that. Rather equip it with something that can handle you KNOW you will face. Edit: i was talking about WGPL What makes you so confident that you will face marines with AP3 weapons? It seems that many choose to equip them with AP2 weapons. I wouldn't be too confident making assumptions about meta. Axes are clearly better than swords at killing anything when you do get to attack. If you have a 2+ save, you are unlikely to be felled before you swing - hence, get an axe. Even if you only have a 3+ save, you're still quite unlikely to be felled before swinging outside of duels with AP3 attacks. I think your criterion is wrong for judging power axes vs. terminator HQs. If the terminator HQ is likely to kill scores of your units in a single round of combat, it may be worth tying them up in a duel against your lowly 28 point unit. Sure, your model will probably lose, but that's beside the point. Also, there's a very real chance they will cause a wound against the HQ - maybe more (@4 to hit, 3 to wound, 4+ invulnerable, 3 attacks, that's 0.75 wounds caused on average). Most HQ models cost much more than 28 points per wound! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 i dont know why people prefer the axe just because the off chance you face a terminator? Most opponents will be tactical marines, xenos, etc. Most armies have maybe 1 unit of Terminators. Take a power sword to kill 90% of the units you will be in combat with, then let the Terminators over to your shooting, elite units, or let them walk around if they are footsloggers. Yes terminator HQ, they are a pain, but you will be dead anyways, fist, axe or sword. Doesnt matter. It's mainly for those terminator sergeants, and there is maybe 1 of those sergeants in a marine army.. Don't think you should equip your wolf guard just in case you see that. Rather equip it with something that can handle you KNOW you will face. Edit: i was talking about WGPL What makes you so confident that you will face marines with AP3 weapons? It seems that many choose to equip them with AP2 weapons. I wouldn't be too confident making assumptions about meta. Axes are clearly better than swords at killing anything when you do get to attack. If you have a 2+ save, you are unlikely to be felled before you swing - hence, get an axe. Even if you only have a 3+ save, you're still quite unlikely to be felled before swinging outside of duels with AP3 attacks. I think your criterion is wrong for judging power axes vs. terminator HQs. If the terminator HQ is likely to kill scores of your units in a single round of combat, it may be worth tying them up in a duel against your lowly 28 point unit. Sure, your model will probably lose, but that's beside the point. Also, there's a very real chance they will cause a wound against the HQ - maybe more (@4 to hit, 3 to wound, 4+ invulnerable, 3 attacks, that's 0.75 wounds caused on average). Most HQ models cost much more than 28 points per wound! The other consideration is that the benefit of negating a 2+save is double the benefit of negating a 3+ save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3260179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Surely someone is missing the bigger picture here. Why are you looking at using a pack to deliver one person with a weapon which could kill a TEQ IF it gets to attack back. You should be hitting that unit before it gets close enough for close combat. I'd go for a few Krak missiles, plasma shots, Vindi shells etc and use the WGPL with a sword, maul or claw personally. Focusing on an individual rather than the army as a whole won't work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3261352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I take swords for power armoured wgpl's and axes for terminator wgpl's. I like swords for init 4 and 4 attacks (no combi weapon), meanwhile for terminators the axe is cheaper than a fist. Anything with t6+ I really dont plan on trying to answer in CC, this includes dreads. To me fists are now for ICs and full terminator units where they become hidden. Ya hidden fists in GHs are an option but the 1 attack keeps me away from them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3261580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Surely someone is missing the bigger picture here. Why are you looking at using a pack to deliver one person with a weapon which could kill a TEQ IF it gets to attack back. You should be hitting that unit before it gets close enough for close combat. I'd go for a few Krak missiles, plasma shots, Vindi shells etc and use the WGPL with a sword, maul or claw personally. Focusing on an individual rather than the army as a whole won't work. That strikes me as a bit of a false dichotomy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3261757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 What happens when trying to look after two young children while adding replies. What I was getting at is not wasting a whole pack as a delivery system for one individual. If you want to put an axe/fist in the pack, give it to a GH. That way it can't get singled out in a challenge. Not going last is a huge adavantage because what has already been killed cannot kill you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3261809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 What happens when trying to look after two young children while adding replies. What I was getting at is not wasting a whole pack as a delivery system for one individual. If you want to put an axe/fist in the pack, give it to a GH. That way it can't get singled out in a challenge. Not going last is a huge adavantage because what has already been killed cannot kill you. Don't get me started on the young children thing ;) My son's eating his breakfast right now. Yeah, if the whole pack was being used as a delivery system for the WGPL it would be a huge mistake, for sure. I don't think anybody was suggesting that anyone do that though. I'm in total agreement that a sergeant with a power sword is a hard counter to a WGPL with power armour and power axe. For that reason, I'd certainly be tempted to give power armour wolf guards swords or claws (I'd definitely give axes to terminators without hesitation though). But it wouldn't be cut and dried for me. Axes still have their advantages. They're AP2 and they are at +1 strength. This means that they're arguably going to be better than swords when there's no duel going on (by virtue of causing 25% more wounds against T3, 33% more wounds against T4, and 50% more wounds against T5). In my experience, it's not uncommon for duels to not occur at all. And as I mentioned previously, they're useful against terminators, while duelling or otherwise. It's not an easy decision either way. Given that I generally give my wolf guard pack leaders combi weapons, a wolf claw would actually be an extremely tempting option as they're not getting that bonus attack with sword/axe anyway. (Though I have to take back what I said about beating 2+ saves being twice as good as beating 3+ saves... it's true but only if you assume that the target has no invulnerable save. I think models with 2+ saves are much more likely to have an invulnerable save than models with a 3+ save. TDA is a case-in-point). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3262053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 i dont know why people prefer the axe just because the off chance you face a terminator? Most opponents will be tactical marines, xenos, etc. Most armies have maybe 1 unit of Terminators. Take a power sword to kill 90% of the units you will be in combat with, then let the Terminators over to your shooting, elite units, or let them walk around if they are footsloggers. Yes terminator HQ, they are a pain, but you will be dead anyways, fist, axe or sword. Doesnt matter. It's mainly for those terminator sergeants, and there is maybe 1 of those sergeants in a marine army.. Don't think you should equip your wolf guard just in case you see that. Rather equip it with something that can handle you KNOW you will face. Edit: i was talking about WGPL What makes you so confident that you will face marines with AP3 weapons? It seems that many choose to equip them with AP2 weapons. I wouldn't be too confident making assumptions about meta. Axes are clearly better than swords at killing anything when you do get to attack. If you have a 2+ save, you are unlikely to be felled before you swing - hence, get an axe. Even if you only have a 3+ save, you're still quite unlikely to be felled before swinging outside of duels with AP3 attacks. I think your criterion is wrong for judging power axes vs. terminator HQs. If the terminator HQ is likely to kill scores of your units in a single round of combat, it may be worth tying them up in a duel against your lowly 28 point unit. Sure, your model will probably lose, but that's beside the point. Also, there's a very real chance they will cause a wound against the HQ - maybe more (@4 to hit, 3 to wound, 4+ invulnerable, 3 attacks, that's 0.75 wounds caused on average). Most HQ models cost much more than 28 points per wound! The other consideration is that the benefit of negating a 2+save is double the benefit of negating a 3+ save. This is not how i ment it. I ment that the army you face will mostly consist of MEQ or worse. Very few armies have more then one (if at all) TEQ (depending a bit on your local meta ofcourse). I see a lot of people reasoning to take axes to kill TEQ, often a HQ, in a duel, which i just dont get. By giving a sergeant/WG an axe, you make him ''worse'' against a lot of things in your opponnents army, and only slightly better against TEQ (oftenly attacking you at I1 aswell), which is often, if at all, a small fraction of the enemy army. Which is why i reason, to take swords on most things (especially PA), to be able to kill the big part of what you are fighting against, and then let the rest of your army, be it plasma, vindicator or whatever you prefer, deal with pesky TEQ. Ofcourse if we talk about TEQ WGPL, you might consider other things, but for PA WG, definetly swords, for me atleast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3262069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysquigg Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I really don't think you should worry too much about it. I use both sword and axe because I think some models look cooler with a sword. Or maybe I've come up with some strange bit of fluff? Decide more from a modelling standpoint otherwise all this nonsense about "who's got the bigger stick" is going to get out of hand. gs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3262137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 If you're going to give a mini something which drops its I to 1 then it needs to be worth it. Personally I'd rather go TDA, SS, CF. Higher chance of still being alive to use it. Would only have that in a Wolf Guard pack in TDA though with other options in the pack. I see WGPL as a way to boost leadership more than anything. Maybe with an combi melta or flamer depending on the packs role. Basic power sword or maul. It is annoying though because an axe is way more Fenrisian than a dress wearers sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3262142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 This thread is good, because it has caused me to revise my choice to give PA WGPL axes. I would still always give TDA WGPL axes because there's not very much cost associated with using one (yes, you will die more often against AP2 but you'll still hold your own, and AP3 holds virtually no threat to you - the +1 strength outweighs the initiative 1. You'll cause 1/3rd more wounds against T4 and are not likely at all to miss out on attacking). If we're talking about packs of WG, though, I think it's best to use the wound allocation rules, and the cheap cost of a second specialist weapon (a wolf claw) to your advantage. I don't think I'd combine a chain fist with a storm shield. Against shooting, you can generally place your priority targets in the middle of the pack to protect them fairly well (often not perfectly, though). In CC it's quite easy most of the time to allocate wounds away from your expensive targets (the defender gets to choose amongst the closest-equal models - i.e. any model in base to base contact, usually). Thus, I'd equip some wolf guard to be durable, and some wolf guard to be killy. If you want a chainfist (definitely worth it) and a storm shield (not a bad idea) I'd put those items on different models, personally. This means mixing armour types, in my books. 5-6 TDA and 3-4 PA wolf guard, mostly with axes, and a few combi-weapons for the TDA models. Something like this: 3 TDA with combi + Power axe (1 melta, 2 plasma) 1 TDA with combi-melta + wolf claw 1 TDA with wolf claw + chain fist 3 PA with power axes. That's what I'd lean towards anyway. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3262645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Deathwolf Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 My Wolf Guard are in TDA with a Wolf Claw and a powerfist, giving the extra attack for 2 specialist weapons, the sheer toughness to take a beating from characters, and the versatility of striking at initiative with AP3 OR hitting at I1 with AP2. It works wonderfully. And if they never get into cc, they are at the front, taking all the AP 3 shots from the enemy. It works well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3266280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 My Wolf Guard are in TDA with a Wolf Claw and a powerfist, giving the extra attack for 2 specialist weapons, the sheer toughness to take a beating from characters, and the versatility of striking at initiative with AP3 OR hitting at I1 with AP2. It works wonderfully. And if they never get into cc, they are at the front, taking all the AP 3 shots from the enemy. It works well. They're great in melee, but they're dramatically more fragile than a grey hunter against everything that isn't AP3 - for the points cost, that is. at 48 points, they're 3.2 times more expensive than a grey hunter. Against AP 2, you've got 1.5 times the durability, but at 3.2 times the cost. Against AP 4+, you've got 2 times the durability, but it's still not worth it, because it's at 3.2 times the cost. As far as I can tell there's no easy way for you to ensure only AP3 wounds are allocated to this model (except in melee). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267591-power-axes-or-power-fists/#findComment-3266367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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