Blood Angels, what are our strengths?

[DominicJ]

People often say "assault", but the reality is, we aren't that hot.

The basic grey knight or space wolf will own the basic assault marine.

Our only advantage is the jump pack, so we can run away quickly...

 

It might seem unusual, but HEAVY is where we rule.

The Storm Raven is the best flyer in the game, hands down.

The Vindicator has the best gun in the game, and can move TWELVE inches and fire the thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Land Raider, is a TRANSPORT!

 

Death Company, Assault Troops, they're nice.

Flying Terminators are funky, elite apothecaries are nice too,

[StJude]

Sorry Sir, you'll need to make a stronger point for me.

 

I argue our strength is mobility. We have fast vehicles and fast troops and better deep striking than the forces you mentioned. We shouldn't be going head to head, the unconventional thinking we need to adopt is not fighting our opponents head on like most MEQ armies, but doing our best to use our mobility to dictate where, when and who we fight.

[Erasmus of Baal]

I'm with St. Jude. There are armies who can use tanks more effectively and there are armies who can shoot more effectively than we can. We do have strong shooting elements, though, as we do strong close-combat elements; the trick is to use them intelligently. The Blood Angels lean too heavy on their ability to move fast and put a real threat just about anywhere pretty quickly to build one-trick-pony lists. OUr tanks are good, but they aren't all that good.

[Leonaides]

People often say "assault", but the reality is, we aren't that hot.

The basic grey knight or space wolf will own the basic assault marine.

Our only advantage is the jump pack, so we can run away quickly...

 

It might seem unusual, but HEAVY is where we rule.

The Storm Raven is the best flyer in the game, hands down.

The Vindicator has the best gun in the game, and can move TWELVE inches and fire the thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Land Raider, is a TRANSPORT!

 

Death Company, Assault Troops, they're nice.

Flying Terminators are funky, elite apothecaries are nice too,

 

Sorry - exactly which basic GK or SW will own a BA assault marine? Work the points - something like 2 GK strike squad guys with no weapon upgrades vs 3 Assault marines ought to be about right... So me move faster (so more mobile - can dictate LOS and point of attack) - we get HoW potentially on the charge (assuming we get to charge due to increased mobility), even without HoW they might get a single lucky hit via overwatch, which is unlikely to kill a marine, then we get 9 attacks to their 2, we get 4 hits to their 1, we get 2 wounds to their 0.5 (round up to 1 for this turn), they fail a save and lose a marine, we get no save and lose a marine. Next turn we get 4 attacks to their 1. Is just gets better for the BA's after that...

 

The basic SW? Which one? A blood claw, or a Grey Hunter? Either of which we can outmanouvre, the BC we can out shoot so we bolter them to death, the GH we string out till they are out of position and unsupported then hit them with overwhelming force.

 

Every marine codex has Vindicators, they also have Land raiders. The GK codex has Storm Ravens... What the BA's alone have is FAST tanks and RAS troops choices... Movement is the difference, not hitting power.

[Drunken Angel]

I won't go into the whole priest thing it is still a discussion in progress but no one can deny blood angels do get a priest upgrade that gives us feel no pain and a furious charge bonus. No one else gets this and I can vouch that with shooting the way it is in 6th even a 5+ saving throw is very useful.

Virtual army wide (if you are careful) feel no pain and furious charge, mobility to apply it where we want, jumpers as troops, reserve re-rolls with deepstrike accuracy that is the envy of all other codexes.

AV 13 scout rule tanks that move 12 inches and then shoot is great synergy with jumpers that move 12 inches. Vindicators that move 12 and shoot enough said. In your face second turn alpha strike assaults are a BA strength very few codexs can replicate. Our FNP attack bikes with melta are very sound once again works with the tanks, FNP and troops. The most mobile dreadnaught in the game the furioso can move 12 inches with WOS, a fleeting Death Company dread (fleet is awesome in 6th). Other PA codexs can do similar things but not one has the codex wide options for such varied fast builds we have nor such resilient troops maybe they dont win CC hands down anymore but I doubt other codexes like SW or GK think they can dominate CC either. Shooting and how yours supports your troops and how you survive the opponents shooting before CC can determines CC outcomes. BA with jump packs moving 12 with FNP and the ability to apply overwhelming force at one point is very strong.

No one else gets a Land Raider as a dedicated troop transport that can deepstrike, DS scatter is not the problem it used to be misshaps are less of a problem. AV 13 hulls in fast attack slots?

Stormravens where do you start ? I have stopped taking them in friendly games because they destroy every battle plan. Skyfire sets ups are a piece of cake to destroy with our abundant melta accurate deepstriking and good shooting. Who else can counter either havocs or quad guns as easily? (Vanguard Vets, Pods, Attack Bike melta, Deepstrike anything that scatters 1 D6) you dont have to shoot the whole army just the bits that threaten the raven then let it go to work. Ravens in heavy is a great help with big guns never tire.

The more I see bloody bastions the more I smile now, either move past it or slag it. Melta rules we have it in spades, apart from salamanders there very few codexes which can put as much melta on the table.

As mentioned Stormravens, Death company, Mephiston, Descent of Angels, abundant melta and movement bar none

[Brother Maikel]

Sorry - exactly which basic GK or SW will own a BA assault marine? Work the points - something like 2 GK strike squad guys with no weapon upgrades vs 3 Assault marines ought to be about right... So me move faster (so more mobile - can dictate LOS and point of attack) - we get HoW potentially on the charge (assuming we get to charge due to increased mobility), even without HoW they might get a single lucky hit via overwatch, which is unlikely to kill a marine, then we get 9 attacks to their 2, we get 4 hits to their 1, we get 2 wounds to their 0.5 (round up to 1 for this turn), they fail a save and lose a marine, we get no save and lose a marine. Next turn we get 4 attacks to their 1. Is just gets better for the BA's after that...

 

The basic SW? Which one? A blood claw, or a Grey Hunter? Either of which we can outmanouvre, the BC we can out shoot so we bolter them to death, the GH we string out till they are out of position and unsupported then hit them with overwhelming force.

 

Every marine codex has Vindicators, they also have Land raiders. The GK codex has Storm Ravens... What the BA's alone have is FAST tanks and RAS troops choices... Movement is the difference, not hitting power.

 

 

While I agree with you that the BA advantage over other marines is our maneuverability rather than hitting power or heavy support choices, you're wrong about the BA ASM vs GK SS and BA ASM vs SW GH matchups.

 

Both a 5-man basic BA ASM squad and a 5-man basic GK SS squad are 100pts. On the charge, by themselves, the BA will get 16x WS4 S4 AP- attacks. Toss in HoW hits and the BA get about 13 hits and 6 wounds, of which the GK will likely save 4, resulting in two GK Marines down. Receiving the charge, by themselves, the GK will get 6x WS4 S5 AP3 attacks (Hammerhand), resulting in about 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 dead BA. Round 2 the BA have 7 attacks at the same profile and receive 4 attacks, netting (3H, 1.5W, .5 dead vs 2H, 1.33W, 1.33d). Evenly matched points-wise, the GKSS will beat the BA ASM hands-down, barring good luck on the BA side.

 

If you toss support characters into the mix, BA get Priests & Libbys, while GK get "fun grenades" and Libbys/Inquisitors. Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Power Armour, Rad Grenades, and Psychic Mastery Level 1 nets you another force weapon, Hammerhand or Prescience, and -1 T to anything charging or being charged by the GKSS for less points than a basic BA Libby, much less a Libby and a Priest.

 

As for Space Wolves, the basic Grey Hunter has 2 attacks being charged (1 base + 1 for BP+CCW) plus Counter-Attack. At 15pts/model you can run 6 for less than 5 ASM, and toss in a Plasma Gun to make it even. That means on the charge the BA still get 16 attacks, while the GH pack gets 12 base or 18 if they are able to Counter-Attack. That results in 13 Hits for BA (HoW) vs 6/9 Hits for GH, 6 vs 3/4 W, and 2 vs 1 D. Every round thereafter the ASM and GH are evenly matched (the BA get 1 extra attack from their sergeant).

 

Both GKSS and SWGH have guns with twice the range and at least 1.5x the damage output. ASM won't get HoW against GKSS, since if you end your turn within 12"-14" of them the GK will shoot and then charge you, netting them the same number of attacks as you but at S5 AP3, while if you're outside of that range the GK will move to 23.9" away and shoot you. You'll have to use your JP to get within charge range of the GKSS when starting out of their charge range. The GH you might get HoW against, as they may choose to simply double-tap with Bolters and cheap Plasma instead of charging. Or they can charge you with bigger numbers and 50% more attacks. In addition, upgrades for GKSS and SWGH are either cheaper (SW) or far better (Psycannons) than anything BA can field.

 

Both GKSS and SWGH are better in both the Shooting and Assault phases of the game than BA ASM on a point-for-point basis.

 

With the nerf to Furious Charge and the changes to FnP, BA ASM have become sub-par assault troops, even when supported by multiple force multipliers. What they've retained is their status as the only scoring Jump Infantry in any PA codex. Toss in Fast tanks, Descent of Angels, Deep Striking Land Raiders and the StormRaven and what the BA excel at is flexibility in deployment and maneuverability on the battlefield.

 

@DominicJ Our Heavy Support slot is only part of that. Baal Preds, VV with DoA and Bikes that can easily get FnP in FA, Fast Rhinos & Razorbacks for Troops, "Jump Terminators", Jump Dreadnaughts, and Terminators that can Deep Strike in a transport in Elite, plus a highly mobile suite of special characters and one of the most versatile & mobile force multipliers in the game (JP Libby) in HQ are all advantages that many other codices don't have.

[DominicJ]

Oh GOD yes we have to move, mass, isolate and annihilate.

 

*****

My point was more a rough thought on how

*****

[Drunken Angel]

People often say "assault", but the reality is, we aren't that hot.

The basic grey knight or space wolf will own the basic assault marine.

Our only advantage is the jump pack, so we can run away quickly...

 

It might seem unusual, but HEAVY is where we rule.

The Storm Raven is the best flyer in the game, hands down.

The Vindicator has the best gun in the game, and can move TWELVE inches and fire the thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Oh GOD yes we have to move, mass, isolate and annihilate.

 

*****

My point was more a rough thought on how

*****

 

 

 

How ?

 

Pleased to put my thoughts down on that, this is what I have found works well.

 

A broad outline of Blood Angel Stormraven and Aegis battle doctrine.

 

Use an ADL and coms relay its 70 points work it with at least one Stormraven and a few Baals. Leave the ADL out front but still in your deployment zone where you want to be in T2 or T3 not where you start T1. Use your jumpers or bikes to activate it as they move across the board. This reliably gives you Ravens on T2 plus the mobile cover of the ADL for the bikes jumpers and tanks. The ravens blast that GH or GKSS unit in front of your ADL protected troops then the units move out from the ADL to clean up. Early T2 Ravens get to hit units before they can shoot your troops for another turn and ensure massed targets in the opponents deployment zone. Hopefully your scouting baals also turned up on outflank and are chewing through infantry and light armour, the bikes may have spilled some more transport. Emperor have mercy on your opponent because if you took a Vindicator too the marines running that will not. Early game bunched troops are made for fast tanks run agressively.

BA troops will clean up the leftovers. I dont care if SWGH's or GKSS are slightly better we can shoot them off the board with equipment in a way they cannot.

 

That is one of the best uses I have found to work ravens jumpers bikes and tanks in together the ADL is key and it cant be shot off the board either like a gun can. The ADL and coms link is a huge force multiplier for us.

 

I will take correction and refinement on this idea suggestions/ comments

[Xenith]

People often say "assault", but the reality is, we aren't that hot.

The basic grey knight or space wolf will own the basic assault marine.

Our only advantage is the jump pack, so we can run away quickly...

 

It might seem unusual, but HEAVY is where we rule.

The Storm Raven is the best flyer in the game, hands down.

The Vindicator has the best gun in the game, and can move TWELVE inches and fire the thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Land Raider, is a TRANSPORT!

 

Death Company, Assault Troops, they're nice.

Flying Terminators are funky, elite apothecaries are nice too,

 

BA formerly did assault better than others. This is no longer true.

 

The BA strength, as has been said, is movement. I have highlighted in your original post, how the only reasons you like the heavies as they are, is because they are also fast.

 

We can get troop choice marines that move 12" as standard, cheaper transports etc etc.

 

The BA's strength is that they can pick and choose their fights, and switch attack directions at a whim.

[Zhukov]

Sorry - exactly which basic GK or SW will own a BA assault marine? Work the points - something like 2 GK strike squad guys with no weapon upgrades vs 3 Assault marines ought to be about right... So me move faster (so more mobile - can dictate LOS and point of attack) - we get HoW potentially on the charge (assuming we get to charge due to increased mobility), even without HoW they might get a single lucky hit via overwatch, which is unlikely to kill a marine, then we get 9 attacks to their 2, we get 4 hits to their 1, we get 2 wounds to their 0.5 (round up to 1 for this turn), they fail a save and lose a marine, we get no save and lose a marine. Next turn we get 4 attacks to their 1. Is just gets better for the BA's after that...

And why exactly don't those 20 GK's shoot you with their Assault 2 24" range weapons?

 

the GH we string out till they are out of position and unsupported then hit them with overwhelming force.

And why exactly don't those Grey Hunters shoot at you? And why would they be out of position and unsupported?

 

 

All this talk about "speed is our biggest advantage!!" is a bit of a red herring. (heh, red, i'm so funny)

 

Speed is nice and well, but not all that hot if that means you lack range (ASM lack range, don't even argue). Why? Because even a basic Guardsman or Marine has a 30" effective range, capable of covering half the board basicly.

 

You know when ASM would be a good troop choice? If they had bolters. Speed combined with range is strong, then you're able to kite and to isolate parts of the enemy his army. Not when you have 12" range pistols and a random charge range.

 

 

Bolter marine of some sort:

6" + 24" = 30" range.

ASM:

12" + 12" = 24" range.

 

You don't dictate the flow of the battle, they do.

 

Strenghts? A few unit choices are good, the BA army as a whole doesn't have a particular strenght.

[knife&fork]

All this talk about "speed is our biggest advantage!!" is a bit of a red herring. (heh, red, i'm so funny)

 

Speed is nice and well, but not all that hot if that means you lack range (ASM lack range, don't even argue). Why? Because even a basic Guardsman or Marine has a 30" effective range, capable of covering half the board basicly.

 

Strenghts? A few unit choices are good, the BA army as a whole doesn't have a particular strenght.

 

I'm not going to get tricked into defending assault squads, because I don't think they are good, but you're taking a far too simplistic view on things.

 

We don't just line up and blast each other in this game, there is terrain, obscuring units and objectives that limit what we can do. A basic guardsman or marine having a 30" threat bubble in theory often means squat on the battlefield. Particularly as the special and heavy weapons tend to be what really brings the pain, at least until you get within the 12" (18") bubble where weight of numbers makes basic weapons worth a damn.

[Leonaides]

Zhukov- I said 2 gk's, not 20, and you will also note I suggested that the ras mobility ought to allow them to deny los till the charge.

 

Getting gh out of position and unsupported is actually fairly easy, either by using firepower to create a firebreak in the enemy army, isolating them from their closest friendly units, or by kiteing the enemy into moving those units elsewhere...

 

'S called tactics dear boy...

[Zhukov]

Zhukov- I said 2 gk's, not 20, and you will also note I suggested that the ras mobility ought to allow them to deny los till the charge.

Same idea, 30 vs 20 or 3 vs 2. (10 GK's are the same price as 10 ASM pretty much btw, but whatever)

 

Able to deny them LoS, how does that work? Your oppenents camp behind buildings, instead of creating actual firelines? Could you show us some pictures how that works maybe?

 

Getting gh out of position and unsupported is actually fairly easy, either by using firepower to create a firebreak in the enemy army, isolating them from their closest friendly units,

Ah and the other player can't do that? Even though he will have superior firepower? I see, you bank on the other player being bad again or not?

 

or by kiteing the enemy into moving those units elsewhere...

You can't kite them, they kite you with their superior range.

 

'S called tactics dear boy...

Sure, hide behind tactics, no problem, you make excellent arguments, keep it up.

[liberate_tutame]

Speed combined with range is strong...

 

You don't dictate the flow of the battle, they do.

 

This is worth quoting for emphasis. In an edition where shooting is king, mobility is an advantage, but range is the key. It's why I still think Vindicators are overrated, and I'm a man that loves his Vindicators.

[Xenith]

Speed combined with range is strong...

 

You don't dictate the flow of the battle, they do.

 

Quoting again. It doesn't matter how quickly you can get around the battlefield, or even if you isolate their forces, but the rest of the opposing army can still shoot you, you're in trouble.

 

Maybe this is why I've been doing reasonably well with tactical armies...

 

Could it be resilience, then? With the ability to have a power armour firebase with FnP, and everything with FC for the counter?

[knife&fork]

Able to deny them LoS, how does that work? Your oppenents camp behind buildings, instead of creating actual firelines? Could you show us some pictures how that works maybe?

:)

 

Do you play on tables totally devoid of terrain? And list composed entirely of Hive guards, barrage batteries or Purgation squads?

 

 

This is worth quoting for emphasis. In an edition where shooting is king, mobility is an advantage, but range is the key.

 

If that was the case nobody would be able to compete with IG. GK and Necrons are strong despite their relatively poor range and movement.

[Ushtarador]

Well, IG surely are one of the strongest armies in todays meta. Their problem usually is lack of mobility and weakness in close combat, but if you take in some cheap, fast allies to tarpit anything that makes it through and grab objectives, they become quite insane.

 

Necrons and GK got very strong midfield-shooting, and getting within 24'' is usually not that hard - at least way easier than getting within 12''.

[Morticon]

Less snippy comments please, gents. Attitude in here is devolving a little as of late.

No need for biting and sarcastic quips -everyone is here to share knowledge and grow from it.

[Brom MKIV]

I agree with Khukovs camp regarding RAS, range trumps mobility. Give RAS bolters and your in business otherwise superior guns dictate movement. In 6th I have noted a substantial difference in the performance of RAS vs BAs tacs, in the tacs favor and personally I have really enjoyed seeing more tac squads across the board with RAS perform more of a specialist role now.

 

On topic I believe BAs strength is still mech. I think most of us can agree that the whole interweb mech2k scare is being proven unsubstantiated except possibly for armies only capable of light mech spam. Anyway BAs have one of the strongest av13+ mech spam lists in the game and to me this is the blood angels greatest strength.

[Xenith]

So, would this mean that DC with packs and bolters are the best?

 

Thrown in a Preferred enemy librarian and you're in business.

[Drunken Angel]

So, would this mean that DC with packs and bolters are the best?

 

Thrown in a Preferred enemy librarian and you're in business.

 

35 points a model is expensive but take a drop pod with Death company 2 infernus pistols and a power fist you are good to go. I took 1200 points of jump pack DC the other day moving up behind 2 AV13 baals and some bikes the libby took sheild with him, it worked well against a shooty Inq list and later agaisnt a Chaos list. The shooty Inq list had dreads and psycannons but nothing else that really threatened AV13 early in the game.

[IK Viper]

Zhukov- I said 2 gk's, not 20, and you will also note I suggested that the ras mobility ought to allow them to deny los till the charge.

Same idea, 30 vs 20 or 3 vs 2. (10 GK's are the same price as 10 ASM pretty much btw, but whatever)

 

Able to deny them LoS, how does that work? Your oppenents camp behind buildings, instead of creating actual firelines? Could you show us some pictures how that works maybe?

 

Getting gh out of position and unsupported is actually fairly easy, either by using firepower to create a firebreak in the enemy army, isolating them from their closest friendly units,

Ah and the other player can't do that? Even though he will have superior firepower? I see, you bank on the other player being bad again or not?

 

or by kiteing the enemy into moving those units elsewhere...

You can't kite them, they kite you with their superior range.

 

'S called tactics dear boy...

Sure, hide behind tactics, no problem, you make excellent arguments, keep it up.

 

Zhukov, what army do you play? I personnally only own BA and so I try my best to be as good a BA player as I can but to be perfectly honest our codex has been severely gimped by both the edition change and the Codex Creep. Gray Hunters and almost all other SW units are better point-for-point then their BA equivilants without a doubt. it is sad to me because I do not understand how the Codex writters can justify a GH having better grear, special rules, and in my opinion, better (more funtional) weapon options for fewer points then any other PA codex equivilant. This problem carries over throughout the SW book in MOST, not all cases. Gray Knights are also under pointed in the same way. In most any other PA codex the wargear a GKSS model, not counting the actual model to tote it around, would cost 18 pts (PW plus a SB) so you are effectively getting a 2 point space marine with psycic powers...

 

GW wants to sell models and abandons older coedxes in favour of newer shinier versions of basically the same thing, SO WE WILL BUY MORE STUFF... but I love BA and will play them proudly, because I do not have the means to keep up with their silly flavor of the month game.

 

The purpose of this thread is to attempt to come to grips with the fact that we now play a game in which our nastiest HQ units (Mephiston, and Saguinor) cannot beat on Terminators, but Karn (or any other properly equiped Chaos Lord) can strike at Initiative with AP2, and are almost 100 points cheaper. none of the BA HQ units that are tactically functional can strike with AP2 at initiative yet Screamers do it all the time, and at higher strength, DE Incubi also strike at I5 at AP2 yet our HQ's cannot dispite being 5 times the cost, or more...

 

Against most "normal" units Assault Marines are pretty good, specially against things that they can sweep, (Necron Infantry hate them becasue they get there fast and can usually sweep a unit in one round of combat) and they have the ability to pop transports well since they have 18 inch threat range on half range Melta that can be followed up with an assault. they also take advantage of DS and terrain, I personnally jump into and out of terrain alot, figuring that even if I loose models to the bushes, I will have come out ahead in the long run by gaining a cover save for the unit. Are RAS point for point better then the above mentioned units, no, but its the best we have and they are not bad honestly, I for one will take the RELIABILITY of always having a JP over the possibility of loosing my Rhino on turn 1 to a Las Cannnon

 

BA are NOT an Assault Codex, name one that is now a days that is not Horde... thats how the edition runs guys :-( but we have the same basic tools as any other PA codex, hybrid lists are our strength, the ability to take lots of fast options, or shooty tanks, or jumpers, or DC, or really nasty guys in cans with pinchers... If your looking for a mono-build power army play deamons, but if you like actually using your mind and not the strength of your codex to win then play BA, I will not play SW for just that reason, they are clearly under pointed and any wins I would get from playing them would feel cheapened. I am not saying they are super, there are alot of armies out there that are as good or better, but what I want above all is BALANCE, we as players should strive to look for a balanced game, not a "who got a book last" game, which is why I really like the new Chaos Book, it seams more reasonable, and play tested, their units are still cheaper then BA equivilants but atleast its not another SW of GK or Necron book

[Brother Maikel]

Speed is nice and well, but not all that hot if that means you lack range (ASM lack range, don't even argue). Why? Because even a basic Guardsman or Marine has a 30" effective range, capable of covering half the board basicly.

 

...stuff about ASM...

 

Bolter marine of some sort:

6" + 24" = 30" range.

ASM:

12" + 12" = 24" range.

 

A tac squad armed with bolters that are 12.1" away do not scare me. 10 BS4 shots = 6-7 S4 Hits = 3 AP5 Wounds = 1 dead marine. Per shooting phase. Even tossing a plasma gun, missile launcher, multi-melta or lascannon into the mix only nets an extra half-wound or so assuming no cover.

 

The real effective threat range for a bolter marine is 6" move + 12" double-tap range, for 18" of threat. For ASM, its 12" move + ~7" charge on 2d6, for 19" of threat. Furthermore, for the tac squad to be a true threat then at least most members of the squad must be within 12", whereas only a few models from the ASM squad have to be that close to the enemy: the rest have at least 5.75" of extra threat range (3" pile-in and then they have to be within 2" of a model in base contact whose base is about 1" in diameter).

 

This also assumes that there's no terrain to move through, no incentive to remain stationary (heavy weapons) and no supporting elements from the rest of the army to help out (no FC, no FnP, no Prescience, etc).

 

 

You don't dictate the flow of the battle, they do.

6" of extra movement for at least half of our codex means the BA basically get the choice of who they want to engage, and when. True, the opforce gets to dictate threat bubbles that are larger than our movement, but threat bubbles cannot prevent engagement with the enemy, they can only make it more dangerous. But if you want your ASM in combat with an enemy infantry unit then there's no way that unit can get away from you so long as you remain alive. Likewise, enemy infantry and/or MCs will not catch an ASM squad that wants to escape.

 

Toss in the fact that at least half of an average BA army list can deep strike, much of it has Descent of Angels to reduce our max scatter to less than half the average of other units and increase the reliability of our jump troops arriving, and add in the sheer amount of mobility an outflanking fast predator and the Stormraven gunship provide, and you've got a codex that literally gets to dictate when, where, and with whom our forces can engage the enemy.

 

 

Strenghts? A few unit choices are good, the BA army as a whole doesn't have a particular strenght.

 

Our strength is our mobility for a marine-quality body. Now, whether our strength matches up with the strengths of other codices is another question, and one that does come down in part to tactics and generalship.

[Zhukov]

Do you play on tables totally devoid of terrain? And list composed entirely of Hive guards, barrage batteries or Purgation squads?

No, I don't, just like you don't play on a cityfight table right?

 

If that was the case nobody would be able to compete with IG. GK and Necrons are strong despite their relatively poor range and movement.

GK and Necrons have good range and mobility and their units are efficient.

 

It's also about the concept Knife&Fork. Of course my statement is simplistic, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hold true in essence! Of course you are able to hide 1 squad sometimes, of course you are able to charge something often enough. But in general it's an uphill battle, the odds are against you. You rely on superior generalship basicly. But when discussing viability of units I assume equal generalship on both sides of the table, sounds fair?

 

A tac squad armed with bolters that are 12.1" away do not scare me..........The real effective threat range for a bolter marine is 6" move + 12" double-tap range, for 18" of threat. For ASM, its 12" move + ~7" charge on 2d6, for 19" of threat.

If you stand at 18.1" they can just take a step back and you're (realisticly) out of charge range again, while they still fire.

 

You will get 2 rounds of shooting against you in most cases. After which you already can't assault GH's or GK's anymore (don't forget overwatch) because they will handsdown beat you... It's sad, I know.

 

This also assumes that there's no terrain to move through, no incentive to remain stationary (heavy weapons) and no supporting elements from the rest of the army to help out (no FC, no FnP, no Prescience, etc).

That's oke, because this goes for the other army too. I haven't even touched on potential counter-assault elements in the opposing army, or the fact that you're completely boned when you fail a random charge lenght.

 

Then you speak about the oppenent not being able to avoid you (irrelevant if that means you die) and you being able to avoid the oppenent (to do what?).

 

Zhukov, what army do you play?

Blood Angels.

[Brother Maikel]

GK and Necrons have good range and mobility and their units are efficient.

GK and Necrons both have decent range (24" isn't bad), but neither army is particularly mobile. Each has one or two ground units that can move more than 6" and a flyer transport. Neither has any fast ground vehicles/transports, and both rely on shooting as their primary offensive tool so running and charges are usually out. In your average game a GK or Necron unit won't get more than 36" of movement in total. Granted, they don't necessarily need more than that, but they're not mobile armies.

 

If Necrons didn't have a cheap, good, spammable flyer they'd be relegated to about the same tier as C:BA, C:SM or Dark Eldar. Decent codex, some interesting tricks, easy common hard-counters to certain lists (vehicle spam mostly), but not nearly efficient enough to be as dominant as they are right now.

 

A tac squad armed with bolters that are 12.1" away do not scare me..........The real effective threat range for a bolter marine is 6" move + 12" double-tap range, for 18" of threat. For ASM, its 12" move + ~7" charge on 2d6, for 19" of threat.

If you stand at 18.1" they can just take a step back and you're (realisticly) out of charge range again, while they still fire.

 

You will get 2 rounds of shooting against you in most cases. After which you already can't assault GH's or GK's anymore (don't forget overwatch) because they will handsdown beat you... It's sad, I know.

 

This also assumes that there's no terrain to move through, no incentive to remain stationary (heavy weapons) and no supporting elements from the rest of the army to help out (no FC, no FnP, no Prescience, etc).

That's oke, because this goes for the other army too. I haven't even touched on potential counter-assault elements in the opposing army, or the fact that you're completely boned when you fail a random charge lenght.

 

Then you speak about the oppenent not being able to avoid you (irrelevant if that means you die) and you being able to avoid the oppenent (to do what?).

 

The point is not to send one assault squad careening into the teeth of the enemy shooting. Its not even about pitting one assault squad against one GH or GKSS squad. As I math'ed out earlier, BA lose that matchup even if both squads start at the same strength. My point is that given our mobility we can often dictate when we engage the enemy, and that we can often make sure that we've got a superior concentration of forces when that happens.

 

If that isn't possible, that's usually because they've castled (or you deployed wrong, but that's your own fault). This is where vindies and allies with Orbital Strikes become extremely useful. They force your opponent to spread out enough to dismantle them piecemeal, or take the risk of pie plates of doom raining down on them. Especially our Vindies, who have a 36" threat bubble and can easily hide behind LoS blocking terrain and scoot out to shoot if necessary. And that's assuming you have to actually engage them to win. If you can snag first blood and/or linebreaker, as long as they don't have more objectives than you they will eventually have to leave their castle. At which point, no matter which way they go we can catch them.