heavens henchman Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hail Brothers, been a long time since I did more than lurk here at the B&C's version of The Rock. Along time ago I used to play AoA but my army A.D.D eventually kicked in and I went to tip my toes in the Ultras swimming pool. Lately though my thoughts have been straying back to the Angels (and wolves but that's not a topic for here) So i've been reading some BL Dark Angels stuff and I just finished reading "Angels of Darkness" Now personally I really enjoyed it, from the portrayal of the marines in general and their interactions with the mortals they work with. The thing I'm wondering is if my thinking is heretical concerns the the actions and thoughts of the interrogator chaplain at the end of the novel. ...I agree with him. The Dark Angels are Knights of bad ass-ery, protectors and servants of mankind. That's what they were made to be by the Emperor. But that's not what they are now, the hunt for the fallen has taken over everything to the detriment of the Angel's true purpose. How will hunting down all the fallen bring back the honour of the chapter/legion when it abandons it's allies when they are needed most? What honour is there in killing innocents, allies or brothers to hide a secret? If the Dark Angels capture a fallen but have killed a 1000 innocents, do those actions "bring honour to the chapter? I don't think it does. Is the capture of the fallen important? Hell yes, but I think it should take second place to the chapters duty to the Emperor and mankind (note: i did not say the imperium). The actions of the Interrogator Chaplin and his squad, to me, are the actions that bring honour to the chapter. They exemplify what the Dark Angels were meant to be and should be. In short they are how I perceive the Dark Angels to be, Shining knights of bad ass-ery, protectors and servants of mankind. Not secretive, shadowy super soldiers that may help you but are willing to abandon you (at best, kill you at worst) if word of a fallen is heard of 2 sectors over. So...am I a heretic? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 So...am I a heretic? Yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavens henchman Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 LOL, ok so would you care to explain why you think that? Where in my thinking am I flawed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_angel Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 It's debatable if the actions of Boreas and the rest of the guys towards the end were something that the rest of the inner circle would approve of. The impression I get would be that most among the Inner Circle would happily go after the fallen and the geneseed and view the deaths of the civilians as a regrettable necessity. This stance was reflected in the apothecary although it's implied he's been nuts for a while now). Apparently, in the Ravenwing novel, the impact of Boreas' speech and actions are noted however, having not yet read it, I don't know what this was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 So...am I a heretic? Yes. Yeah I have to agree too with the above. The explanation is simple. Astelan is a Fallen and completely delusional, he had his mind construct a story that gave him justification for his actions in the past. He is not chaos aligned but a traitor non the less. The Lion never betrayed the Emperor and certainly never thought of delaying his return to terra during the siege.In fact it is stated that he was willing to sacrifice the DA, his own legion/children to ensure that it is the Emperor and the Emperor alone sitting on the throne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavens henchman Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 wooha hold the bus. I never said that Astellan wasnt a traitor, he was. I never said The Lion was a traitor, he wasnt. I agree that astellan was a raving lunatic, paranoid, delusional. and made up his story to justify his actions. It's the actions of the current Dark Angels and the actions of Boreas and his squad that I'm concerned with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 snip..Where in my thinking am I flawed? Blessed is the mind too small for doubt. Get to Chamber 42, MadDoc will arrange a suitable 'training' session for you there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 wooha hold the bus. I never said that Astellan wasnt a traitor, he was. I never said The Lion was a traitor, he wasnt. I agree that astellan was a raving lunatic, paranoid, delusional. and made up his story to justify his actions. It's the actions of the current Dark Angels and the actions of Boreas and his squad that I'm concerned with. Well, I though you made that common mistake. I happen to think that the DA are the only chapter that take great pains to capture their own traitors while the rest of them (all chapters have marines that fell) simply do so at opportunity and that speaks volumes. What causes you concern if I might ask as to avoid another mistake? EDIT: Scratch that seen what you mean. Well, its the same problem it always is really. Misinterpreted traditions down the ages, mire in rights and loosing sight of purpose. I see it as a tragic outcome. However, the chapter is one with a beating living soul and saving that soul is only what matters. The DA cant stand in front of the Emperor as long as one of the fallen lives. And that takes priority over everything else. Also there are no shining knights in 40k IMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmattlythgoe Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I see what you are saying Henchman, and I tend to agree. Has the chapter gotten so obsessed with capturing the fallen that it has forgotten what it is supposed to be doing in the first place? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I disagree NML, Henchman appears to be concerned about "innocents". The DA loyalty is and always has been to the Emprah and Lion and the edicts that they have set for humanity before the needs of the general population. It is wrong to place 2k western morality onto 40k interstellar supersoldiers; their role is to maintain order and protect the people from the evils without and within. Protecting the Imperium from the "truth" that even SMs can fall is a very important responsibility, if it became common knowledge (over and above the HH damage) it would undermine the DAs ability to prosecute their role. You may now head to Chamber 42 and wait quietly at the door for your turn at education :devil: s Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 So...am I a heretic?Not at all brother, not. At. All. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavens henchman Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 stobz you raise a very very good point that i had failed to considered when you said that the knowledge that space marines can fall may hinder the Dark angels ability to do their job, but considering that chapters and marines have fallen since the HH, wouldnt that entail society knowing that its possible anyways? especially with abadon nocking at cadia lately. Nihm it makes me concerned when a night lord says im not a heretic lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I also agree with Henchmen about Borias' actions. Can't wait to see what Ravenwing has to say about it. Its a fine line. If the DA's aren't noble at least some of the time and are always killing people, how will anyone differentiate them from any run of the mill chaos warband. While I'm not saying there shouldn't be any grimdark in the DA's portrayal, 40k is all about the moral grey area and you can't have a grey area without a few pure white deeds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I disagree NML, Henchman appears to be concerned about "innocents". The DA loyalty is and always has been to the Emprah and Lion and the edicts that they have set for humanity before the needs of the general population. It is wrong to place 2k western morality onto 40k interstellar supersoldiers; their role is to maintain order and protect the people from the evils without and within. Protecting the Imperium from the "truth" that even SMs can fall is a very important responsibility, if it became common knowledge (over and above the HH damage) it would undermine the DAs ability to prosecute their role. You may now head to Chamber 42 and wait quietly at the door for your turn at education :o s I agree and will expand. The DA may also consider members of the Fallen very dangerous to the Imperium in general - and we have accounts of some becoming warlords and what not. Though their views are probably skewed after 10,000 years of hunting redemption, they may rationalize that the cost of some innocents is worth it in the long run. How many innocents make up the Imperium? 1000 here or there can be justified in 40K grim dark standards. Just how many pskyers die each day to keep the Emperor alive? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 See, this is why you should never omit smileys... So...am I a heretic? Yes. :o To be slightly more serious though, the judgement of Boreas was well and truly compromised by the end of Angels of Darkness and as for Nestor, as others have suggested he seemed to already be somewhat unhinged before hand. Also, I don't think its a good idea to use either of their actions to judge/gauge the DA as a whole. "Doubt is the open gate through which slips the most fatal of enemies." "Blessed is the mind too small to doubt." Nihm it makes me concerned when a night lord says im not a heretic lol As well it should... Now, step this way Brother and don't mind the fellow in the skull mask he's there to help... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Yessssss, as MadDoc said, please step this way and everything will be alright, you'll see... *energizes Blades of Reason* Angels of Darkness has been a very influencial book in shaping peoples opinion on the DAs for a very long time. In that way it was a succesful book. But what I take out of it is that the true DA was Nestor NOT Boreas who should be viewed as a (well meaning) failure... By getting his priorities wrong he compromised the hunt and handed Cypher a victory. In that sense Astelan has managed to corrupt him by sawing doubt in his mind as to the true mission of the DAs and the value of the hunt itself. The story about the Lion putting his marines above the lifes of ordinary humans was well placed to make Astelan look like a decent chap while depicting the Lion as a vengeful, cold hearted inhuman individual (that he might very well have been) and ultimately self-serving. Question is, isn't the DAs cause self serving? It is, and being a DA means you should embrace that fact and leave altruism to the Ultras... or the Sallies... or the Fists.... When conflict arises the hunt is all that matters! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavens henchman Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 hmm apparently I need to hop on the path to redemption for thinking we can have the best worlds! lol. Damn fallen for forcing us down this path. So was that cell 52 or 22? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 So was that cell 52 or 22? At this rate we may have you in both rooms at once! ;) I hated this book. Which means it was a good book if it provokes a strong feeling, but as others have said, it was tough to read a book where the fallen find victory against DA. Especially character as important as Boreas. An interrogator chaplain, someone who is supposed to have unshakable faith in the workings of the inner-circle. Nestor's memory should be honored. He deserved better than to be slain by a traitor chaplain who lost his nerve. as stated, leave human protection to Sallies, they care more about them then the IG it seems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267625-am-i-a-heretic-for-thinking-this/#findComment-3259857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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