Azulz Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Aboddon joining marked units. I've heard a few things about this. Does anyone know what is goin on with this on either side? Him not being able to join marked units kinda seems out of the blue to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Aboddon joining marked units. I've heard a few things about this. Does anyone know what is goin on with this on either side? Him not being able to join marked units kinda seems out of the blue to me. "An Independant Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 "He(Abaddon) also has all four Marks of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.57 Due to the wording of these two rules, Abaddon has a Mark of of each Chaos Power and is therefore prevented from joining a unit with any Mark of Chaos. So his Mark of Khorne prevents him from joining a unit with a Mark of Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch. And so on for each Mark, effectively preventing him from joining any Marked unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azulz Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is that the absolute final say or is there anything defending the other side of that argument? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Well, there's the shear silliness of Abaddon being prevented from joining a Marked unit by virtue of being blessed by all the Chaos Gods... And previous iterations of the rule has always allowed Abaddon to join all units of Marked by virtue of having each of the Marks. So RAI is on that side of the debate. But RAW is what it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azulz Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 I believe there was something in the previous codex stating that all the marks he has formed his "own" mark... anything like that in the latest codex that might help the situation? BTW sorry books at home. Appreciate the help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Well, previous rulebooks are ... previous. What matters is the current version. And for that, I've quoted the relevant rules text from the current source. Sorry, there's nothing more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Agree with Dswanick, as the rules stand he's forbidden from joining any marked units at all. Until it gets FAQd you're pretty much reliant on house rules and opponents agreeing that he's intended to be friends with everyone instead of being the social outcast of chaos. Milage varies on that approach naturally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I'm going to disagree with the consensus in this thread. The wording as it is is sufficient to make it clear that Abaddon may join any unit (as their mark is never different to the one he has - because he has all four). "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos" is quite specific. The subject of the rule is the unit - it's the mark the unit has that is important, not the mark held by the character - and the character may only join it if it has the same mark. If the rule said "may not join a unit if he has a different mark to that of the unit" then I could see the possibility of the rule meaning that he couldn't join a marked squad, but with this wording it's irrelevant that he has a mark of khorne when he joins a nurgle squad because it is all about the unit having a different mark to his. As he has all four the unit will never have a mark that he doesn't have, ergo he can join any squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I'm going to disagree with the consensus in this thread. The wording as it is is sufficient to make it clear that Abaddon may join any unit (as their mark is never different to the one he has - because he has all four). "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos" is quite specific. The subject of the rule is the unit - it's the mark the unit has that is important, not the mark held by the character - and the character may only join it if it has the same mark. If the rule said "may not join a unit if he has a different mark to that of the unit" then I could see the possibility of the rule meaning that he couldn't join a marked squad, but with this wording it's irrelevant that he has a mark of khorne when he joins a nurgle squad because it is all about the unit having a different mark to his. As he has all four the unit will never have a mark that he doesn't have, ergo he can join any squad. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Khorne? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Nurgle? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Nurgle. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Nurgle? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Slaanesh? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Slaanesh. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Slaanesh? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Tzeentch? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Tzeentch? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Khorne? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Khorne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 and the character may only join it if it has the same mark. Oh, if only it was worded that way things would be clear-cut and perfect. But nooOOOOoo, Phil had to go and write that if a character has a different mark he can not join the unit. And Abby will always have a mark (3 marks actually) that will be different. We all know what is intended. It is complete lunacy for Abbadon to not be able to join any marked unit. Yet that is how it is worded. For what it's worth, I have yet to see a store that actually plays it that way. So far we have all agreed that yep, it is worded such that Abbadon cannot join a marked unit and nope, we ain't playing it that way. You experiences may vary, but I kind of doubt it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 grrr ... I thought the hamster had died for a few minutes there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I'm going to disagree with the consensus in this thread. The wording as it is is sufficient to make it clear that Abaddon may join any unit (as their mark is never different to the one he has - because he has all four). "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos" is quite specific. The subject of the rule is the unit - it's the mark the unit has that is important, not the mark held by the character - and the character may only join it if it has the same mark. If the rule said "may not join a unit if he has a different mark to that of the unit" then I could see the possibility of the rule meaning that he couldn't join a marked squad, but with this wording it's irrelevant that he has a mark of khorne when he joins a nurgle squad because it is all about the unit having a different mark to his. As he has all four the unit will never have a mark that he doesn't have, ergo he can join any squad. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Khorne? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Nurgle? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Nurgle. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Nurgle? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Slaanesh? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Slaanesh. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Slaanesh? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Tzeentch? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch. Does Abaddon have a Mark of Tzeentch? Is that the same or different to a Mark of Khorne? If different, then he can't join a unit with the Mark of Khorne. But that's not what the rule says. It says "An independent character may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos [to the one that the IC has]". It does not say "A unit may not be joined by an independent character with a different Mark of Chaos". Do you see the difference? The first one says that the IC must have the same mark as the unit while the second says that the IC may not have a different mark to the unit. You're conflating the two. So your example becomes: Abaddon has a Mark of Khorne, this is not different to the Mark of Khorne, therefore he may join squads with the Mark of Khorne Abaddon has a Mark of Nurgle, this is not different to the Mark of Nurgle, therefore he may join squads with the Mark of Nurgle Abaddon has a Mark of Slaanesh, this is not different to the Mark of Slaanesh, therefore he may join squads with the Mark of Slaanesh Abaddon has a Mark of Tzeentch, this is not different to the Mark of Tzeentch, therefore he may join squads with the Mark of Tzeentch . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 But that's not what the rule says. That's exactly what the rule says. "An Independant Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3259829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 But that's not what the rule says. That's exactly what the rule says. "An Independant Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 Exactly- it references the units mark as the one that must align, not the characters. I think thats enough to put it in the grey zone, though I lean towards the side of 'cant join' personally. Because it doesnt matter wich side we approach it from- you can say, well hes got the mark of khorne, so he can join a unit with the mark of khorne as they dont have a different mark.... But he also has the mark of Tzeentch, and they dont, wich makes it illegal at the same time. Illegal three ways and legal one way doesnt make a good case sadly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 OK, as a linguist and translator - the semantics and syntax structure of the rule's wording boil down to "The IC has to have the same Mark as the Unit it wishes to join". Abaddon always does, he has all the four of them. He always has the "key" to unlock being able to join, in other words. If you wished to intepret it the other way, like the guys above are claiming, the syntax would break. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An independent character with a mark of chaos may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos", because abbadon has all 4 marks under one special rule I look at it as saying he has one mark that is 4 marks, so when using them in this sentace we take all 4 marks as one, so a unit with mark of khorne can be joined by abbadon due to the fact that his mark is the same, we don't take it as saying he has the mark of nurgle so he cant join but he has the mark of khorne so he can, we take it as saying he has the mark of nugle/khorne, so he can join. The easiest way to look at it is a unit with the mark of khorne doesnt have a different mark to the one abbadon's got, he hasn't got a different mark of chaos to the unit, he's got the same mark plus other marks, so although 3/4 of the mark is different because 1/4 of the mark is the same he has the same mark. So if we count it as one mark because it comes under 1 special rule then the he can join the unit, but if we take it as four seperate marks then he can't. I believe because it comes under a special rule and not as several special rules we can count them as being one mark that is all other marks. Hope this helps at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 So if we count it as one mark because it comes under 1 special rule then the he can join the unit, but if we take it as four seperate marks then he can't. "He(Abaddon) also has all four Marks of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.57 The special rule says he has all four marks. "An Independant Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 @ all the rest - it doesn't say "an IC with the same mark may join a unit", it says "an IC with a different mark may not". Can in IC with a Mark of Khorne join a unit of Nurgle Marked? "An Independant Character with a Mark of ChaosKhorne may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos. Abaddon is an IC with a Mark of Khorne. Can an IC with a Mark of Nurgle join a unit of Slaanesh Marked? "An Independant Character with a Mark of ChaosNurgle may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos. Abaddon is an IC with a Mark of Nurgle. Can an IC with a Mark of Slaanesh join a unit of Tzeentch Marked? "An Independant Character with a Mark of ChaosSlaanesh may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos. Abaddon is an IC with a Mark of Slaanesh. Can an IC with a Mark of Tzeentch join a unit of Khorne Marked? "An Independant Character with a Mark of ChaosTzeentch may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos. Abaddon is an IC with a Mark of Tzeentch. And with that, I'm tired of typing these circular posts. Look, I get it - no one likes the RAW. But it's better to accept and acknowledge that the RAW is the RAW, and argue for RAI than to try and claim the RAW says what it clearly doesn't. And if all else fails and you're stuck with an opponent who insists on RAW - well consider the por BA players. They have an IC who doesn't even have the Independant Character rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 dswanick is correct, this isnt about how it should work, its about RAW and as much as i sometimes hate the loyalty to the antiquated 'RAW' its how things are laid out here at the -OR- its poorly worded and becuase he is noted as having 4 marks individually, it precludes him from joining any unit that is marked. still hes a powerhouse, just give him some ccw chaos marines for 14 pts each and hes got a cheap platform to wreck face failing that raise it with your games club and check, they might be ok with the RAI version Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An Independant Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 @ all the rest - it doesn't say "an IC with the same mark may join a unit", it says "an IC with a different mark may not". Why do you keep saying this? It does NOT say that an IC with a different mark may not join. It says a unit may not be joined by an IC if the unit has a different mark to that of the IC. These two terms are semantically and linguistically different. I don't know if we're bashing against the British English vs American English wall again, but the rule as written is very specific. Does the unit have a mark that the IC doesn't have? - If No then fine, can join. - If yes then can't join. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 It says a unit may not be joined by an IC if the unit has a different mark to that of the IC. It says a unit for example: a Unit with a Mark of Khorne may not be joined by an IC if the unit Unit has the Mark of Khorne has a different mark to that of the IC Abaddon has the Marks of Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch. Are these different to a Mark of Khorne? So the Unit can not be "joined by" Abaddon because he has Marks that are different to that possessed by the Unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Again, you're reading it backwards. It's the Mark of the UNIT that is being compared, not the Mark(s) of the IC. "Hi, Abaddon, we have a Mark of Nurgle. Is that different to the one you have? No, great, come join us" RAW and RAI working together. Why is there any debate here? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "Hi, Abaddon, we have a Mark of Nurgle. Is that different to the one you have? No, great, come join us" "Why, yes, you foul cur. That's different to my Marks of Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch as I am blessed by all four Gods and have the Marks to prove it." In this case RAW does not match RAI. And no matter how many different ways you try to re-write the RAW to match what you think it should say, it's going to stubbornly remain saying exactly what it actually says. "An Independant Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 "He(Abaddon) also has all four Marks of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.57 So with that, I'm done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An independent character with a mark of chaos may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos" The unit doesn't have a diferent mark to the independent character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An independent character with a mark of chaos may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos" The unit doesn't have a diferent mark to the independent character. So Plague Marines have the Mark of Slaanesh? And the Mark of Tzeentch? Even the Mark of Khorne? Neat. :) Point being, Abby have them all. And having the Mark of A means not joining a unit with the Mark of B, even if you have the entire alphabet. Because when you have more than one mark, you do come with a different Mark (that is, the rest of them). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 A chacter with a mark of chaos cannot join a unit with a different mark, he has all the marks so the unit doesn't have a different mark to him, we don't take the marks differently because they are on one model, the unit has the same mark as him. The mark of khorne allows him to join a unit of khorne beserkers, the mark of tzeench doesnt remove the mark of khorne so he still has the same mark, but another mark in addition. The rule sais that an independent character with a mark of chaos, not a mark of chaos itself, the key here is the independent character, "the whole is greater then the sum of it's parts", if you take the marks individualy then your points are valid, but because it is a whole Independent character, you take the marks as a whole, the unit doesnt have a different mark to the character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267632-aboddon-joining-marked-units/#findComment-3260327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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