Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 If Abbadon has any one mark that is different, by RAW he can not join that unit. ANY one different. As long as he has ONE mark that is different then he can not join that unit. He has A mark of chaos that is different. He also has a mark that is the same, but the rules are not written that way. If he has A mark that is different, he can not join. The ruels are written in such a way that would even prevent him from joining a unit that also has all 4 marks of chaos. He has A mark that is different than ONE of the marks form the unit. That is all that matters with the way it is worded now. It is obviously broken and not intended to work that way and the only way to get it fixed is ask GW how it is supposed to work. Get your frineds to email as well. Don't let broken rules remain; make them fix it in an FAQ. But you have to see that it is in fact broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Data007 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 But it actually says, right in the entry, that he has all 4 Marks of Chaos. This isn't an ambiguous statement, it doesn't say 'counts as having all the Marks.' It flat out says that he has the Marks. That would be like saying that the Gauntlets of Ultramar don't count as power fists because they aren't listed as power fists individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 Abaddon has Marks A, B, C, and D. Berzerkers have Mark A. So, to fit it in the rule for this example... "An Independent Character with Mark B, C, or D may not join a unit with Mark A." If that still isn't clear enough...nothing will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I agree that RAW Abaddon can't join units with a mark, However RAI I believe it was intended for him to join them, as he is the current "lord of chaos" and commands respect from all the legions etc. I don't use Abaddon, and if I were to play vs someone in a tournament I'd be happy to let them join Abaddon to any unit they wish, unless GW decide to faq it so Abaddon can't join marked units of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 M opinion, for what it's worth, is that this is pretty cut-and-dried; yes, Abaddon has the same Mark as a unit of, for example, Khorne Berzerkers but he also has a different Mark to a unit of Khorne Berzerkers. Three of them, in fact. Accordingly, as it stands and as ridiculous as it may be from a fluff standpoint, he cannot join them. As Jacinda so eloquently states, the rules do not allow an exception for an IC that has multiple Marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 Abaddon has Marks A, B, C, and D. Berzerkers have Mark A. So, to fit it in the rule for this example... "An Independent Character with Mark B, C, or D may not join a unit with Mark A." If that still isn't clear enough...nothing will be. I still don't understand why you're all reading the rule back to front. It's irrelevant whether Abaddon has 1 mark, 2 marks or 100000 marks. The rule is about THE UNIT. Does THE UNIT have a DIFFERENT Mark to Abaddon? The answer is no, THE UNIT will always have the same mark as Abaddon. Yes, Abaddon has other marks, but that's beside the point. Please can somebody explain (using precise grammar and reference to rules precedent) why they believe Abaddon having a Mark of Khorne and a Mark of Nurgle prevents him joining a squad of Plaguemarines when the subject of the rule (the unit) does NOT have a different mark to Abaddon (Mark of Nurgle is the same for both the IC and the unit), the grammar is both precise and correct and a linguist has already posted in this thread that the correct reading of the sentence is the way I am interpreting it, not you. I'm baffled. Especially when everyone agrees that RAI supports it as well. TLDR: Yes, Abaddon has a different mark to the unit, but the unit doesn't have a different mark to Abaddon, and that is all the rule cares about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 TLDR: Yes, Abaddon has a different mark to the unit, but the unit doesn't have a different mark to Abaddon, and that is all the rule cares about. the logic isnt sound.. ignoring the fact we all agree on RAI, RAW doesnt talk about what marks they have in common.. it talks about if they have marks that are different. i dont want to point fingers, but the only person reading the rule back to front is yourself.. does abby have the ame mark as a unit of khorne berserkers.. why yes thanks.. and thats how the rule should have been written "an Ic can only join a marked unit if they share the same mark".. that would cover all the sins. however thats not how the rule is written, its written in the negative, as in if they have different marks they cannot join. so whilst the berserkers have the MoK and abby has the same, he is also prevented from joining becuase he has the MoS and MoN and MoT in a permissive rulesset or even law and mathematics as soon as you introduce a negative to a positive, the answer will always be a negative. to try and talk you through the way your reading the rule An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos abby an bersekers respectively hi my names abbydabbon i have marks of khorne, tzeench, nurgle and slaanesh.. i want to join you.. hi we are the khorne berserkers we have the mark of khorne but unfortunately you have 3 marks that are different to us, therefore you cant join us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Further example: I have four marbles: 1 red, 1 blue, 1 yellow, 1 green. You have a red marble. Do you have a different colour marble to me? No. Do I have a different colour marble to you? Yes, 3 of them. Are people really suggesting that you'd answer Yes to the first question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Does THE UNIT have a DIFFERENT Mark to Abaddon? What mark does a unit of plague marines have? Is this differnt than a mark Abaddon has? Abbadon has a mark that is different than the unit. That is not reading it backward, that it the direction it is stated in the rule. Not that it mattars one flying :D if you read it backwards or forwards. If a mark is different there is no joining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ok biggest issue is people are saying that he cannot join a unit because the unit doesn't have the the same mark of chaos, am I right. Now let me lay this out for you. Abaddon has: Mark of Khorne Mark of Slaanesh Mark of Tzeentch Mark of Nurgle Chaos Lord A has Mark of Slaanesh Chaos Lord B has Mark of Tzeentch Now we have 3 examples for the RAW. Lord A wishes to join a Noise Marine squad. RAW states "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may NOT join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." RAW Lord A may join the Noise Marine Squad. Now Lord B wishes to join a Thousand Sons Unit. Raw He can because HIS mark is the same as the unit. Ok so Lord A see's Lord B having some nice Coffee with the 1k Sons and wants to hang with them. Lord B says sorry buddy, but YOU don't have the same mark as us. Lord A is now very very sad. Ok so now Abaddon rolls up in his Benz and want's to rock out with the Noise Marines. RAW states "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may NOT join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Well Abaddon looks at his shoulder and see's the see's the Mark of Slaanesh, the Mark of Khorne, Mark of Nurgle, and Mark of Tzeentch. The Noise Marines stop their band practice and look as well. They see the same thing, Khorne (nope), Nurgle (nope), Tzeentch (nope), and finally Slaanesh (Yep same mark). So they walk over to him and hand him Lead Guitar and they resume practice. RAW specifically states an if/when situation. If IC has this then this happens. If Abaddon has said mark, Abaddon gets to join X unit. Lastly WHO IS GOING TO TELL ABADDON NO TO ANYTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." An Independent Character (Abaddon) with a Mark of Chaos (Mark of Khorne) may not join a unit (Plague Marines) with a different Mark of Chaos (Mark of Nurgle). That is what the rules states. We are not working backwards. We are following the rules to the letter exactly as it is written. Mix and match as you see but Abaddon will always have a mark of chaos that will not let him join any marked unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Further example: I have four marbles: 1 red, 1 blue, 1 yellow, 1 green. You have a red marble. Do you have a different colour marble to me? No. Do I have a different colour marble to you? Yes, 3 of them. Are people really suggesting that you'd answer Yes to the first question? I don't understand how you're rewording the sentence to say what you want it to say. The subject of the sentence is NOT "a unit", it is "an independent character." The rule tells you what an IC cannot do, and that is join a unit with a different mark. "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.", C:CSM, Pg.30 Simply diagraming the sentence solves this, despite how foolish the RAW feels to people: {An Independent character} SUBJECT {with a mark of Chaos} QUALIFIER {may not join} VERB {a unit with a different Mark of Chaos} DIRECT OBJECT. The sentence tells you who (Abaddon) cannot do what (join) to whom (a unit). You can't just arbitrarily reinterpret the sentence as "A unit with a Mark of Chaos cannot be joined by an IC with a different Mark." You've now changed the subject of the sentence, the direct object, and the verb tense. That might be all well and good when determining intent, but it's not valid for reading rules. Using the actual WRITTEN sentence, you must assess Abaddon in order to join him to a unit. While Marks may not be exclusive in this case, the qualifiers for joining ARE exclusive. If you reword it to read like we WANT it to read, you assess the unit first, which allows Abaddon to join. It's a matter of exclusivity versus inclusivity. Think of it like a logic program: IF Abaddon = B, C, D THEN cannot join. That's the exclusive version, and is the RAW. The inclusive version, which is the altered version you're trying to use (and we can all agree is how it SHOULD work, but does not) is this: IF Abaddon = A THEN can join. So to sum up and beat a dead horse: The RAW is exclusive. It tells you what an IC cannot do. Because it is exclusive, any violation of the qualifying criteria nullifies the ability, regardless of whether a qualifying criteria does exist at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ok biggest issue is people are saying that he cannot join a unit because the unit doesn't have the the same mark of chaos, am I right. No. It is because he has a mark that is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Jacinda reiterates what I said perfectly. It's not working backwards in the slightest, it's working exactly as the rules state. Stop being obtuse and coming up with rules that don't exist. Discuss what we have to work with, then disagree with bad rules writing and decide to play RAI like the rest of us. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Jacinda reiterates what I said perfectly. It's not working backwards in the slightest, it's working exactly as the rules state. Stop being obtuse and coming up with rules that don't exist. Discuss what we have to work with, then disagree with bad rules writing and decide to play RAI like the rest of us. ;) Exactly! And if Seahawk and I agree it's got to be a screwed up rule. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Jacinda reiterates what I said perfectly. It's not working backwards in the slightest, it's working exactly as the rules state. Stop being obtuse and coming up with rules that don't exist. Discuss what we have to work with, then disagree with bad rules writing and decide to play RAI like the rest of us. ;) Exactly! And if Seahawk and I agree it's got to be a screwed up rule. :tu: Pssh, when both of you guys agree with me it's gotta show the Mayans were on to something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puffin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Please address these question: I have red, blue, green and yellow. You have yellow. Do you have a different colour to mine? I may not group with you if your marble is a different colour. Can we group? I have khorne, tzneetch, slaanesh and nurgle. You have nurgle. Do you have a different God to mine? I may not join your unit if you have a different God to mine. Can I join? Then consider reading the rule again! An IC may not join a unit with a different Mark. Hello unit, I have A,B,C and D. Do you have a different one? No, GREAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Then consider reading the rule again! An IC may not join a unit with a different Mark. Hello unit, I have A,B,C and D. Do you have a different one? No, GREAT! your argument only works in a vacuum.. does abaddon have the mark of khorne, yes.. great so he can join a unit of khorne berserkers... actually no, becuase he has the marks of nurgle, tzeench and slaanesh and these are different to the mark held by the berserkers. bascially whatever mark the unit has, abby will have a different one becuase he has them all.. you cant cherry pick which mark applies for this rule.. they all apply.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 He has A, B, C, and D. The unit only has A. Because he has B, C, and D, he cannot join the unit because they are different marks than what the unit has. Again, stop making up rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Then consider reading the rule again! Yes. Please do. Sameness is never mentioned. Nor are marbles. An Independent Character (Abaddon) with a Mark of Chaos (Mark of Khorne) may not join a unit (Plague Marines) with a different Mark of Chaos (Mark of Nurgle) An Independent Character (puffin) with a Mark of Chaos (red) may not join a unit (jacinda) with a different Mark of Chaos (yellow) It does not matter that you ALSO have one that is yellow. Sameness is never mentioned. Being the same is not a condition of joining; having one different is a condition to prevent joining. These are permissive rule sets. Once IC's are given permission to join units in the basic rule book, they keep that permission until a rule denies them that permission. Abaddon is an IC and as such can join other units. Then we get "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos" Abaddon has a Mark of Nurgle. CSM do not. Abaddon can join a group of CSM. No change. Abaddon has a Mark of Nurgle. Thousand Sons have a mark of Tzeentch. Exceptions kick in. Abaddon may not join a unit of Thousand Sons. Abaddon has a Mark of Tzeentch. Thousand Sons have a Mark of Tzeentch. They have the same mark. Yet there is no rule concerning same marks, only different marks. These are not different marks so they do not fall into the above quoted rule. Nothing happens. NOTHING happens. This is important. Permission to join is being denied because of a different Mark of Chaos. Once permission is denied, we need another rule to explicitly give the permission again. Abaddon has the same mark as Thousand Sons. Big deal. Nothing happens. The rule about having a different mark does not apply here, but it did apply to Abaddon's Mark of Nurgle. Permission is denied. Nothing gives that permission back. Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos that is different than Thousand Sons. Thousand Son's mark (Tzeench) is different than a Mark of Abaddon's (Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh ... take your pick) Being the same does not matter. Direction does not matter. There is no rule for having an identical mark. There is a rule for having one different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Please address these question: I have red, blue, green and yellow. You have yellow. Do you have a different colour to mine? And if you want to put substitutions into the the rule, the question is "Do I have a color that is different than one of yours?" It does say "a Mark." Just one. As long as you have "a marble" that is different color than mine, then we can not join. As long as my marble is different than one of yours, then we can not join. It works the same, both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." You need to take the "independent character as a whole, not Mok/N/S/T, the independent character has several marks of chaos, does the unit have a mark of chaos different to his? No, there mark is the same as his mark the mark of tzeench is the same as the mark of tzeench, just because its sprincled with khorne flakes does not stop it being a mark of tzeench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."You need to take the "independent character as a whole, not Mok/N/S/T, the independent character has several marks of chaos, does the unit have a mark of chaos different to his? No, there mark is the same as his mark the mark of tzeench is the same as the mark of tzeench, just because its sprincled with khorne flakes does not stop it being a mark of tzeench. That's a great opinion, but it's not how the rule works. it's not about what is the same, it's about what is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 *sigh* The IC has the Mark of Khorne. The unit he wants to join has the Mark of Tzeentch. Can't join, yes? It doesn't matter that the IC has the Mark of Tzeentch too. As long as he (also) has a different mark of any kind at all, he is not allowed to join, period. Basically, that rule wasn't written with Abaddon in mind, and vice versa. Hence the trouble we have now. It's not: IC has ABCD and unit has A so hooray! :) It's: IC has ABCD and unit has A, so aww. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.