stormsson Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I was just watching a game between 2 friends, one using blood angels with grey knight allies, the other orks. My mate charges his death company dread with blood talons and an allied inquisitor with psychotrokes into a mob of 30 orks. He rolls a 2 for the grenades (auto-hits) and then smears all 30 boyz with 6 attacks and shred! After the game, we rolled it off for a laugh and he could have smashed his way through 415 boyz (if the mob was big enough)! My question, is there any reason why this couldn't happen, as we can't find any rule in the assault rules about a model having a "kill zone" like 4th used to? Stormsson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 allies of convienence can't make use of each others Wargear. No Psycho's for the BT Dread. Edit: Hmmm. Wargear isn't mentioned in the allies ruls, only Psychic powers. coudl have sworn it was. Oh well, seems like there's no restriction on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Brutality! "Lost in their own private hilarity, the enemy unit is hit automatically in this Assault phase." Perfectly legal. As if BA and GK needed any more massive boosts in power... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Data007 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Thing is, I'm not sure they are. The Inquisitor is applying an effect to the Orks, who are suffering the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 The unit is hit automatically. The DC Dread has 5 attacks on the charge. He needs to roll to wound for each of those (needing 2+). As the Orks have no save he will generate 4.16 unsaved wounds which allow 4.16 extra attacks, generating 3.47 more wounds, then 2.89, 2.41, 2.00, 1.67, 1.39, 1.15 finally 0.96, which is less than 1 so we'll stop there for a total of 19 dead Orks. Not sure where 415 came from! Edit - forgot about rerolls to wound but not sure even that would bring it up to 400+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Must use this combo. just need to roll a 2! Edit: And the bangles can use the allied gK Teleport Homers, right? I can't see any restrictions on Wargear use, and this isn't in either BA/GK FAQ as far as i'm aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Must use this combo. just need to roll a 2! Edit: And the bangles can use the allied gK Teleport Homers, right? I can't see any restrictions on Wargear use, and this isn't in either BA/GK FAQ as far as i'm aware. Allies of convience are considered to be enemy units. That's a pretty big restriction right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Sounds like a lot of fun. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormsson Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 It's 6 attacks on the charge due to rage, rerolling with shred. I don't know the averages, we actually rolled and he got 415, I only managed a paltry 288! Lmao! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Allies of convience are considered to be enemy units. That's a pretty big restriction right there. sure, but they are not treated as enemy units for everything. Only; treat <snip> as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them. Nothing there about not sharing wargear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormsson Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Besides, they're not actually 'sharing' wargear. They're just benefitting from the effects of anothers wargear. Think of it this way, I can't cast guide on my allied unit but it can benefit from from it's target being doomed, enfeebled, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Allied GK inquisitors providing Ulumethan Plasma syphon support to a Bangle Main. :D Have the Inq ride around in a Razor/Chim extending his BS1 bubble. Heh, who needs battle brothers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Psychotroke grenades effect "each enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting" so the effect of the grenades would apply to the Dreadnought as well as any other unit in the assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Nothing there about not sharing wargear. I can use my opponent's Beacons when I HI my Vanguards then. Excellent. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Allies of convience are considered to be enemy units. That's a pretty big restriction right there. sure, but they are not treated as enemy units for everything. Only; treat <snip> as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them. Nothing there about not sharing wargear. Are you saying my chaos daemons can deep strike using my enemy's beacon? Fantastic! Flamers on the mark every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think the key is that they are enemies. The rest of that just means you cant try to attack them with the primary force and vice versa, despite them being opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Are you saying my chaos daemons can deep strike using my enemy's beacon? Fantastic! Flamers on the mark every time! Didn't the old 5th Edition BRB FAQ state you couldn't use your opponents wargear? Sadly, such a distinction is no longer in the new 6th edition FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Indeed. It used to say: Q: Am I able to gain the benefits of any of my opponent’s wargear or special rules, such as Teleport Homers, Chaos Icons, Tyranid Synapse, NecronResurrection Orbs etc? A: In most occasions this is clear, as the rules use the words ‘friendly’ or ‘own’ to indicate your units, and ‘enemy’ for the opponent’s. On the other hand, some rules clearly specify that they affect ‘friend and foe’. A few rules are, however, slightly ambiguous as they don’t clearly specify this distinction. As a general principle, we recommend that you cannot use or gain the benefits from any of the wargear or special rules of your opponent’s army, unless specifically stated in the rule itself (‘friend or foe’) or in an official FAQ. In the absence of anything similar in the 6e FAQ one could decide that it no longer applied although it almost certainly opens up a whole can of worms that I'm not sure anyone really wants to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Well, that FAQ specifies you cannot use or gain the benefits from any of the wargear or special rules of your opponent’s army, not 'enemy units', which could be your own allies, in your own army. Edit: too much bold. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormsson Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Psychotroke grenades effect "each enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting" so the effect of the grenades would apply to the Dreadnought as well as any other unit in the assault. Maybe splitting hairs here, but the dreadnought isn't actually assaulting the inquisitor or vice versa. How about if you were to roll that their leadership is reduced to 2? Would that now mean that if they managed to kill the inquisitor in that round of combat, there Ld would jump back to it's original number as the ally can't use their wargear? Or what if a farseer casts enfeeble on an enemy unit, my dire avengers now roll to wound against their reduced toughness but when my allied tac squad then shoot at them their toughness jumps back to normal? All I'm trying to say is, the wargear (psychic power, etc) affects the enemy unit, then the ally benefits from that effect (the dreadnought is still stunned from that thunder hammer blow last round so still strikes at I1 regardless of who is swinging at him this round). This is different to using allied wargear such as teleport homers, here we are actually using the wargear (although there is currently no rule disallowing this), whereas, above, we are just benefiting from the effects of allied wargear. Just my thoughts on it though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 It's not really a question of using your allies' wargear, it's the fact that the wargear (or psychic power, or weaponry, or special rules) can also effect your allies as they are enemy units. Going back to the specific example of psychotrokes they effect "each enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting". There is no requirement for the grenade user to be the one who is assaulting or being assaulted. If your inquisitor is assaulting one or more units and your allied dreadnought also joins in the combat then the dreadnought is an "enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting" and will also be effected by the grenades. This does not however mean that your allies could not make use of an ability that effects an enemy unit such as Enfeeble as that is targeted against a specific unit rather than effecting every enemy unit in a combat. You would not want your allies to be in combat with the same unit as your Purifiers though because Cleansing Flame would effect them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormsson Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 It's not really a question of using your allies' wargear, it's the fact that the wargear (or psychic power, or weaponry, or special rules) can also effect your allies as they are enemy units. Going back to the specific example of psychotrokes they effect "each enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting". There is no requirement for the grenade user to be the one who is assaulting or being assaulted. If your inquisitor is assaulting one or more units and your allied dreadnought also joins in the combat then the dreadnought is an "enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting" and will also be effected by the grenades. Fair point, hadn't thought of it that way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Incidentally, I did the proper Mathhammer on this thing and I reckon, with 6 attacks and assuming 2's to wound (with rerolls) and no invulnerable saves, you should get 168 unsaved wounds. Nowhere near the 415 that was mentioned earlier but still more than enough to wipe out any target with no invulnerable and quite a sick combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK1 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 To add to this, RAD nades would be the same since they apply -1T to the unit for that phase, any ally attacking that unit that phase would be attacking the unit with -1T. DK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Stacius Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Grey knight FAQ: can psychotrokes affect vehicles? Answer=no So, orks get affected, vehicles don't. 6d6, needing a 2+ with a reroll on every 1 you roll can, potentially, go on forever really. It can also cause 0 wounds. Using Bloods as a further example, would you then state you cannot utilise Corbulo's re roll on allies of convenience? For instance, use it to re roll an armour save on your grey knight inquisitor? Or can that not be done? Also, don't have rule book with me, but isn't it each enemy unit assaulting or assaulted by the unit equipped with the trokes? If not, I think I will hide an inquisitor at the back with them and every assault roll the effects. In the question the dread is not assaulting the inquisitor, or vice versa. Thus the grenades should have no effect on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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