Handling GKs with the new codec

[Kol Saresk]

Tournament standings I would say are in a similar position of battle reports. Both are factual data. Both are from a limited number and both are from a specific group of people. Now, not all tournaments will always have the same exact people coming to them year after year and it certainly isn't with the same army. And as you pointed out, there also a multitude of variables such as were both players playing competitively, did one have a WAAC list(a list made to win), or did one have a list that was meant for a narrative campaign or did both players have one or the other and so on. I will say that you are right in that tournaments will probably cut down on variables such as rule errors, but they have the same chance of accounting for things like dice rolls and how people played their armies. Although I imagine the average player in a tournament scene is one of the WAAC-type of players who is looking for every little thing such as using a laser pointer to show LOS through what would normally be cover.

 

Now, I don't believe I made the statement Chaos is better at beating Grey Knights than Space Wolves are, although looking back I can see why that impression can be made. And the twenty battle reports was just a theoretical example. The one thing about battle reports is whether or not one of the players even makes it. I have noticed a trend in a rising lack of battle reports in which the poster is the loser. I wouldn't say that this means more people are winning more and more often. Just that people are posting their losing battles less and less for one reason or another. I was just making an example. To be honest, I'm not even sure I could find twenty battles with ten being GK vs CSM and ten being SW vs GK. It just seems like something either people avoid or just don't talk about. Most likely the latter.

 

However, like any other survey, I look at the factual data that is presented to me. In this case, battle reports. From those battle reports, SW players don't seem to think as much of their Codex as they used to. Yes, they and other players of different Codices believe it to still be a powerhouse. But some seem to feel as though it has "fallen down the rankings" so to speak. That's why I said I don't think that Space Wolves aren't comparable to Grey Knights anymore. It would be like comparing us to Tyranids. Can you make the comparison? Yes. Is it an accurate representation? No. The general mood gives the strong impression that this is the case between SW and GK. They are still a better army than ours, just no longer as far away as the Grey Knights are.

 

Although I do love how Jeske says "SW/IG." To someone like me who unconsciously analyzes words, that is almost an admission that the SW Codex by itself is not what used to be, that it requires Allies to be competitive. Now, I am sure I will now get bombarded with how using Allies doesn't diminish a Codex and is simply taking advantage of what is given to us. I will not disagree.

 

Although what I said was "Space Wolves are no longer comparable." not "Space Wolves with Imperial Guard allies are no longer comparable." It becomes two different statements. The former implies a generality about a specific variable(just the SW Codex) while the latter implies a specific grouping of two variables(SW and IG). And then another specific grouping was made by comparing two specifics against each other(SW/IG vs GK/IG). Now, as I do not have either Codex, I imagine there are more builds to each Codex than these two, just that they are the top competitive builds since it's what Jeske assumed I was talking about. So he immediately went into a specific category that I probably wouldn't be too wrong in thinking that he had already done calculations for, rather than looking at each Codex as a whole and randomizing his suggested number of one hundred games between each one. Or observing one hundred games would be better as it would be true factual data rather than generated probabilities which hold the further probability of being wrong.

 

Now, I don't think that we could find so many battle reports between those specific Codices simply because of the aforementioned lack of reporting. It's possible that if I did enough googling and translating and double checking that I wasn't picking up the same battle report off of two websites because the same person had a different screen name for each one, I might reach the number. And at the end of it, if I produced results that said I was right, it could be argued that I found a way to manufacture them by simply picking the ones that put it in my favor. That's why everything I am saying is in generality rather than specific. Since Jeske is such a supporter of it, I have no doubt that the specific SW list that has IG allies is one of the more competitive lists that Codex can currently produce. However, what is competitive is not the entirety of my scope. I'll leave that at that.

 

I know it looks like a ramble, unfortunately that's the clearest I can make it. If something confuses you, just say so and I will try to make it clearer.

[Paradigm]

Dual Dark Apostle builds with 4x 30 cultists with 3x flamers each and all with Autoguns work surprisingly well. Just keep all the squads arranged in the DA Leadership bubble and stay out of Assault. Throw in some melta bikers in FA and some Havoks with 4x AC and you're set. Use the fearless cultists to bog down the GK if assault isn't avoidable. Don't try to kill all the GK, because you wont, but you can win via objectives and board control. You are basically making a wall of cheap lead, focus on one squad at a time with your havoks and all the cultists and the GK will get hemmed up.

At 2000pts the entire game changes, Abbadon becomes very viable with scoring plasma chosen and 3 or 4 BF heldrakes, to roll with your bikers. If you use Abby, you can walk him right up the board with a unit of oblits or even throw him in a landraider with 4 mutilators. Pretty much the only time I'd use mutilators actually. While you are using a lot of units that are "daemons" you should still be ok. The plasma will rip through GK and so will the baleflamers.

[the jeske]

If you use Abby, you can walk him right up the board with a unit of oblits or even throw him in a landraider with 4 mutilators

good thing mutilators cap at 3.

[spartan249]

Plasma Cannons, Noise Marines, Sorcerers used as a force multiplier rather then a psychic bomber, Terminators, and Heldrakes would top the list of units/weapons I'd take to fight against GKs.

 

As I explain, GK armies will be either be an earth/fire army (typically purifier builds), water army (strikes/terminators), fire army (henchmen heavy), or a mix (the bad lists IMO).

 

Blast weapons provide a soft counter to deep striking forces, forcing the incoming wave to either run and spread out to mitigate damage or combat squad and give up a few combat squads as forfeit for the drop. Sorcerers can provide you the means to throw some wrenches into the GK plan, especially if you manage to get Invisibility and use some other multipliers to even the playing field in CQB.

 

Terminators got a big leg up against GKs thanks to the power weapon nerf, which means that terminators now have a lot of viable targets rather then almost no viable targets. At least one unit of these (A sorcerer with Invisibility can make this unit almost impossible to get rid of) can really make some fur fly, and not just against GKs.

 

Heldrakes are just about guaranteed to do some kind of damage when included. Anything excluding terminators, vehicles, and paladins will be terrified of baleflamers and have them scrambling to spread out to mitigate damage, which can only go so far when the GK player is trying to focus fire. Of course, they have to deal with not being able to affect enemy fliers, but them's the breaks, I guess.

[Kol Saresk]

Aren't Noise Marines supposed to be one of our more worse units?

[Brother Ambroz]

Heldrakes are just about guaranteed to do some kind of damage when included. Anything excluding terminators, vehicles, and paladins will be terrified of baleflamers and have them scrambling to spread out to mitigate damage, which can only go so far when the GK player is trying to focus fire. Of course, they have to deal with not being able to affect enemy fliers, but them's the breaks, I guess.

 

While I do agree with the rest, how do Helldrakes scare terminators, vehicles or paladins? Sure it's a strength 6 template but still 2+ will save most of that and Baleflamers aren't going to do much to vehicles (unless it's a rhino).

[the jeske]

Although I do love how Jeske says "SW/IG." To someone like me who unconsciously analyzes words, that is almost an admission that the SW Codex by itself is not what used to be, that it requires Allies to be competitive

how many points , with or without FW , 1999 or under .For example europe plays a lot of 1500-1850 , chaos with demons/IG or not is a lot worse then SW . SW have more utility . What does chaos have that compares to chooser of slain , rune staff or ATKNF or hidden power axs or drop pods ? the bale flamer and then nothing . Mono SW are not bad . An identical army made with SW costs works better , offten costing less too . But what you must well know there is no mono builds in 6th anymore. Yes someone can play just chaos or just SW , people still play 1ksons . But as long as ally are in SW/IG or IG/SW is an army .

GK alone are also worse then GK and IG . they lack plasma and long range low ap anti tank and IG gives them that . Cortez is of course the best HQ ever , like a SW RP on crack . But aside for some very specific builds [all wing type armies] HQ do not make an army . not when most games are about objectives.

 

Heldrakes are just about guaranteed to do some kind of damage when included. Anything excluding terminators, vehicles, and paladins will be terrified of baleflamers and have them scrambling to spread out to mitigate damage, which can only go so far when the GK player is trying to focus fire

awesome . you bring your 170pts drake , burn 3-4 cultists or 10 IG . then on the next turn your leaving the table . Also a mix of power armored GK [mostly purifires] henchman and IG , is the best GK build right now . When is it the worse ? when the game is 2500+pts or over ?

[spartan249]

I personally think noise marines are right up there with plague marines in terms of viability. They have great firepower at mid-range, and I think they compare favorably to strike squads when in cover and holding the line. Add in some symphony of pain, and I don't see how they could be bad. The addition of a krak missile that blows up and ignores cover is pretty bombshell too given how well entrenched infantry can be a headache to eliminate with conventional means.

 

Everything excluding TDA and vehicles. Not including. Other elements can handle those threats.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Heldrakes are just about guaranteed to do some kind of damage when included. Anything excluding terminators, vehicles, and paladins will be terrified of baleflamers and have them scrambling to spread out to mitigate damage, which can only go so far when the GK player is trying to focus fire

awesome . you bring your 170pts drake , burn 3-4 cultists or 10 IG . then on the next turn your leaving the table . Also a mix of power armored GK [mostly purifires] henchman and IG , is the best GK build right now . When is it the worse ? when the game is 2500+pts or over ?

 

I have consistently managed to make zooming attack runs that hit three rounds in a row before flying off the table. It's all about how you angle your initial approach coming in from your edge of the table, and it's not at all hard to pull off. AP3 Torrenting templates are nothing at all to be scoffed at, either, so I don't know where this disdain you have comes from. Sure, the Vendetta is cheaper, but a squadron risks total destruction from a good Skyfire unit due to how hits are distributed.

 

Baleflamer-equipped Heldrakes still have the Meteoric Descent hits against vehicles and flyers, so it's an all-around good choice to make, I think.

[RapatoR]

awesome . you bring your 170pts drake , burn 3-4 cultists or 10 IG . then on the next turn your leaving the table . Also a mix of power armored GK [mostly purifires] henchman and IG , is the best GK build right now . When is it the worse ? when the game is 2500+pts or over ?

I am not sure if you are kidding, but if yes I don't get joke. Are we talking about thing that can get practically to any target you like and devastate it with torrent template (which is hard to counter with ANY kind of formation), while vector striking other? Because if yes, and you tell me that you are at best able to kill 10 IG with it and then you get out of table next turn, then no wonder you've got issues with new dex.

 

At least be consistent. You always compare ANYTHING to GH squad and tell us how awesome they are, but when discussing offensive output of something, an enemy magically turns from SW to IG/ork/mass cutist player.

[the jeske]

I have consistently managed to make zooming attack runs that hit three rounds in a row before flying off the table. It's all about how you angle your initial approach coming in from your edge of the table, and it's not at all hard to pull off.

If your opponent doesnt move , has no flyers of his own . I wouldnt call this easy to pull off.

 

Because if yes, and you tell me that you are at best able to kill 10 IG with it and then you get out of table next turn, then no wonder you've got issues with new dex.

If your playing against GK henchman builds , then your not killing more then 3-5 dudes from the small squads and/or your doing nothing to the 10 man squads[in LR and you cant open them with str 7 vector strikes] . If your opponent plays meq and sees your bags/list/size of your army deployed and he goes slogger and bunkers up in a such a way that you can kill more then 6 dudes , then he is doing something wrong with his list . If he is playing pure IG and plays blob and doesnt have landing pad , but an aegis and does spread and your killing enough IG models to hurt his sgts/hvy weapons/plasmas well then he is not a good player.

The bale flamers kills in optimal conditions under 10 models from a single unit , unless you have loaded dice and never roll 1s . And those optimal conditions are opponent not having icarus , not playing mecha , not having landing pad , casteling up against an army with torrent flamers in 2 slots .

 

You always compare ANYTHING to GH squad and tell us how awesome they are, but when discussing offensive output of something, an enemy magically turns from SW to IG/ork/mass cutist player.

not magicly . I was anwsering with sarcasm to a claim that that a GK army unless it has terminators will break up just because torrent flamers are used . It was a foolish claim . the flamer template has its limits and GK armies most of the time run GK[power armored models] henchman or IG . less offten SW , because it is better to run SW main and GK ally if someone wants to use such a set up. There is no magic . Also you forgot to that SW have one of the worse things a torrent flamer [costed at 170pts so not cheap unlike other flyers] , terminator armored squad leaders and HQs for their drop pod builds .

[RapatoR]

Because if yes, and you tell me that you are at best able to kill 10 IG with it and then you get out of table next turn, then no wonder you've got issues with new dex.

If your playing against GK henchman builds , then your not killing more then 3-5 dudes from the small squads

Typical small squad is around 5 people, so it means you are killing entire squad. Heck you could kill 6-7 if you wanted.

and/or your doing nothing to the 10 man squads[in LR and you cant open them with str 7 vector strikes].

Since when GK lists typically include LRs? But fine, melta opens it up and then Baleflamer kills buched up dudes.

If your opponent plays meq and sees your bags/list/size of your army deployed and he goes slogger and bunkers up in a such a way that you can kill more then 6 dudes , then he is doing something wrong with his list .

Dude, you constanty forget vector strike. And do you realise that 4 man squad is practically neutralised? Even more so when it is flyer that can get into any postion he wants, so sniping valuable models is guaranteed.

 

If he is playing pure IG and plays blob and doesnt have landing pad , but an aegis and does spread and your killing enough IG models to hurt his sgts/hvy weapons/plasmas well then he is not a good player.

Do you realise that forcing him to spread models is advantage for you to begin with? If he makes line, you can snipe models, if he makes spread blob, then you are denying cover for large portion of his unit (among other disantvatages. Also forcing him to put his precious models into middle of the blob (not behind it) means they will be more easy to kill from the front.

 

The bale flamers kills in optimal conditions under 10 models from a single unit , unless you have loaded dice and never roll 1s

Against meq it usually cripples it and earns points back, while making dmage with vectors stirke in 1 turn. Fair enough for me. And those optimal conditions.

 

And those optimal conditions are opponent not having icarus , not playing mecha , not having landing pad , casteling up against an army with torrent flamers in 2 slots .

Ok it means that your army list is scared of 1 lascanon shot/unable to kill T7 2W MC in one turn which is flat out bad army list, have no tools to deal with mecha, which is 4ed army list, you opponents sits with entire army on landing pad (which is rarely used in a first place), or you are not able to use space advantage that is your opponent giving with castelling up, which is crucial when 5/6 games are objective based.

 

 

not magicly . I was anwsering with sarcasm to a claim that that a GK army unless it has terminators will break up just because torrent flamers are used . It was a foolish claim . the flamer template has its limits and GK armies most of the time run GK[power armored models] henchman or IG . less offten SW , because it is better to run SW main and GK ally if someone wants to use such a set up. There is no magic . Also you forgot to that SW have one of the worse things a torrent flamer [costed at 170pts so not cheap unlike other flyers] , terminator armored squad leaders and HQs for their drop pod builds .

The flamer template has limitations for sure, but all its limitations are practiacally negated with torrent rule.

 

If it uses PA models, than it is loosing around 15 dudes a turn (2 flamers and lets say 1 vector strike.) That is also 2 henchmen squads and still 15 IG models a turn (or 12 and one mech) if there are absolutely no PA modls on table. And it still ignores cover and strikes on practically any spot you like.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I have consistently managed to make zooming attack runs that hit three rounds in a row before flying off the table. It's all about how you angle your initial approach coming in from your edge of the table, and it's not at all hard to pull off.

If your opponent doesnt move , has no flyers of his own . I wouldnt call this easy to pull off.

 

The limitation is the 90˚ turn and the ≥18" move. On a standard 4'x6' rectangular table, this is plenty if you plan it out in advance.

 

The game is objective-centric these days, so keep objective areas in mind when planning your route.

 

You want to come in at an angle from your own edge that puts you in front of your target in weapons range, but also closer to one edge of the table so you can turn back into the battle. Here are three examples of three turn flight patterns:

 

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j91/montismo/flight-paths.png

 

The Baleflamer has Torrent, which gives you a wide area of placement possibility.

 

For the 123 route:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j91/montismo/123-Torrent-Potential.png

 

For the ABC route:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j91/montismo/ABC-torrent-potential.png

 

For the XYZ route:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j91/montismo/XYZ.png

 

As for enemy movement, the game is objective-centric these days. Scoring units will generally move in predictable ways because of this, and they are choice targets for the Baleflamer. The Heldrake is a terror to objective camper squads, and enemy armor will be prevented from effectively shooting for the turns they are running out of the Heldrakes flight path.

 

As for enemy flyers, are they already on the table? Make them the first target of your attack run, angling your route past them so they have to either fly off the table to get behind you, or risk going into Hover mode to take a shot at your rear (at which point your HS should knock them out.) If they are not already on the table, you have the option to Jink, and if you survive their first round of shooting, fly off the table and Meteoric Descent strike an enemy ground unit as you go, if you can. Then come back on in your next turn and make a run where you try to get behind HIS flyer.

 

That's the advice I have for making attack runs and prioritizing targets. It's based on my experience, so YMMV, of course, but I don't think I've played a game without a Heldrake since the codex came out, and I've never had a Heldrake shot down before it could put the hurt on someone. The Baleflamer has wiped out multiple units in more than one game. The Meteoric Descent has trashed tanks and other flyers, and even the odd GK Paladin or two just because I was flying over and had nothing to shoot at that turn.

 

As for the Grey Knights, this is who I mostly face. The Heldrake eats Henchmen, Dreadnoughts, Predators, Razorbacks, and MEQ. Don't let Storm Ravens get behind you and you've got a decent chance. Let other units deal with his TEQ.

[RapatoR]

Max summed it up nicely:

Just one little bit to complement him, you actually have to place only narrow end within 12" so those orange areas are places, where you narrow end have to be placed and wider end can be outside that area as long as narrow end is closer to the drake.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Max summed it up nicely:

Just one little bit to complement him, you actually have to place only narrow end within 12" so those orange areas are places, where you narrow end have to be placed and wider end can be outside that area as long as narrow end is closer to the drake.

 

I went for maximum distance with the orange area, adding the length of the template to the 12" limit of Torrent already. It's not a completely representative area (because figuring in different ways to turn the template would have taken too long), but gives a good idea, I think.

[Brother Nihm]

This could be refined and made into a Tactica Helldrake article? :)

 

*wink wink nudge nudge*

 

Anyways,

 

Back to discussing how to best put the silver-armoured fools to the sword.

[Kol Saresk]

But wasn't the Tactica Heldrake part of that discussion? I mean, one person said it would work, one person said it wouldn't and then two just showed how. Technically it's somewhat loosely on topic. Although you're probably right that we should move on to other alternatives.