Kol Saresk Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If it's legal then it's fluffy. - the jeske And fluff just isn't worth the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Not quite the point, they were trying to represent the different specialist weapons that Abbadon carries. doesnt matter aint worth the points . Then again......FLUFF is all that matters!!! nothing in the rules says that fluff matters .If it did a tactical squad would be wiping out 40k guardsman . they wanted to nerf him [no idea why NDKs are faster and have str 10 re-roll hit/wound force swords] and made him different by adding the chosen to troops rule . in 5th being +d6 A didnt matter because he was a suck HQ. slow and costed like +1DP . in the 6th post the change it is the same . he aint got faster , the mark change made it harder to use him and with lords/sorc/huron being actualy good and DPS being just as killy but faster , it again doesnt matter. he could have a ap- str 1 spoon the way he is now. And fluff just isn't worth the points. your missing the point of what I said . everything you can legaly take from a codex is fluffy . If it wasnt , it wouldnt be as an option in the dex or would have been errated . Fluff has nothing to do how the game is played , what is good or what is bad .There are just good and bad units . Some armies have more of those and more synergy etc , this makes its more enjoyable to play . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Mali and my discussion on Abbadon wasn't involving him tactically it was involving his rules. And nope fluff is all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 point me to the page in a codex that says that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 It seems GW left it out of most of the codices that I've seen... strange, Privateer Press had the sense to put Page 5 in every one of their army books. Typical GW leaving it to the players to argue over :rolleyes: Maybe they'll make their own 'Page 5' eventually releasing it as a rule-update in White Dwarf? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Why is the Talon Sx2, it's a lightning claw - see? His weapons just a set of stats. Fine stats, mind, they just don't feel terribly evocative to me. I'm not sure what I would have done differently had I been designing him - maybe talon as x2 attacks (total of six), AP3, shred & rending, drachnyen as a single add'l attack at Init 1, AP1, auto wound/penetrate, instant death?... That's pretty much exactly how it was in the 3rd ed book. Abby had something like 3+1 attacks. He makes the lightening claw attacks, then gets a single swing with Drach'nyen. If it hits, it wounds automatically, any model wounded is killed outright. Only invun saves could help you. Vehicles were auto penned on a hit. Thinking about it, Horus had the talon and a mace. I was sure the emperor wore terminator armour. Surely the Emperor should have won the fight, as Horus has no way of getting through his armour, shy of poking him in the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 point me to the page in a codex that says that. Page 108. FLUFF MATTERS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 that is a fluff page not a rule . by the way you have no idea how long I re read the chaos dex trying to find something on page 108 . The rule book say something like "you should have fun while playing the game ". It is not a rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Hahahahaha. In my codex there is no page 108. :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 my has more . 110 . I can only imagine how huge a german codex is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 That's pretty much exactly how it was in the 3rd ed book. Yeah, more or less. Granted, that's not as good as what he has now, and what he has now isn't good enough to justify his cost, so there would need to be other modifications to make him scary & effective. That's just closer to the weapon stats I would like to see. Thinking about it, Horus had the talon and a mace. I was sure the emperor wore terminator armour. Surely the Emperor should have won the fight, as Horus has no way of getting through his armour, shy of poking him in the eyes. The emperor, according to art, fought with lightning claws, or a sword, or some combination there-of. There was a lot of useless bounding off each others armor going on in general it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 that is a fluff page not a rule . by the way you have no idea how long I re read the chaos dex trying to find something on page 108 . The rule book say something like "you should have fun while playing the game ". It is not a rule. Good outlook, jeske. What I tell people all the time: painting the models was hard, playing the game should be harder. It's funny listening to people argue about Abaddon's rules. I put this to my girlfriend, who is a lawyer and argues statutory and regulatory matters in front of judges in the US, who says that the rule about the marks clearly comes down in favor of applying only to models belonging to a class possessing a mark (singular). At least, this is how it would be interpreted in a court of law. 40k is not a court, of course, and she thinks it's silly anyone would argue about this in the first place. She would say the point of a hobby is to enjoy yourself, and all the people arguing about this must really enjoy arguing. I think the rules matter to the point where people stop having fun, then it's time to do something else. There is kind of an irony to all this. Abaddon is there in the 40k universe to spread despair and otherwise be a horrible person. It's amazing he can spread disunity and discontent without even being real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 my has more . 110 . I can only imagine how huge a german codex is . Next time I decide to joke with you I'll remember that then. When people invest hundreds or even thousands of dollars in something then they are often pretty serious about it. Whenever I use Abbadon I just use him with whatever marked unit I want. Anyone who says otherwise I just won't play. Easy as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 It's funny listening to people argue about Abaddon's rules. I put this to my girlfriend, who is a lawyer and argues statutory and regulatory matters in front of judges in the US, who says that the rule about the marks clearly comes down in favor of applying only to models belonging to a class possessing a mark (singular). At least, this is how it would be interpreted in a court of law. Whilst I really see where you're coming from (and I agree with the sentiment) if I were to be nit-picking I would say that the Mark of Chaos Ascendant *is* technically only a single Mark, it just acts as though you have each of the other Marks... all the people arguing about this must really enjoy arguing. I think the rules matter to the point where people stop having fun, then it's time to do something else. I'm finding more and more that this is the case on this particular section of B&Chainsword. I'm actually getting put off by the amount of posts that discuss this or that philosophy of playing as being 'the right one' when we know that multiple types of format (competetive and non-competetive) exist and should both be catered for. People have stopped trying to say that one religion is best, so why can we not stop thinking that only our personal philosophy is 'the correct one'? It would instead be much more constructive to consider both approaches when making comments in threads and would go a long way to removing the ridiculous opinion-and-argument-fests that some topics have devolved into. There is kind of an irony to all this. Abaddon is there in the 40k universe to spread despair and otherwise be a horrible person. It's amazing he can spread disunity and discontent without even being real. You sir, win the internetz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 People have stopped trying to say that one religion is best, HA! You live in a different part of the world than I do .... Regarding Abaddon's mark, it is my opinion that the rule is borked, it needs to be fixed and until then we continue to play the way a blind muskrat could see was the intended rule. As for how I rate him, I say probably a 3, tops. He's no looker, that's for certain. Sure he has money and power but no compassion. He would make a lousy father, he is too old to understand contemporary music and that top-knot thing he has going on is not flattering AT ALL. Maybe he has enough power to bring back "Firefly" so I'll give him a nod there but until Joss is actually back in filming I'll rate Abs about equal to any other homie with an attitude. I'll pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant seriously being discussed as it denying Abaddon the ability to join a unit with any Mark? The description of the MoCA states quite explicitly that he has all four Marks, and names the Mark of Tzeentch he possesses outright to stipulate the 4++ Invul Save. It doesn't say it "acts" like he has other Marks, he has all four Marks, as it's written in Abaddon's section of the Codex. Ergo, he can join any Marked unit because he has all four Marks and his possession of the Mark of *insert relevant deity* unlocks his capacity to join a unit with that same deity's Mark. That he possesses Marks of the other deities does not exclude him from joining a mono-Mark unit because they don't negate the effects of the relevant Mark. This is RAW, not RAI. :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 it doesnt work like that . your not checking if a if an HQ has the same mark to join , you checking if he doesnt have a different one. If you were just checking if they have the same , you wouldnt be able to put undivided HQs[huron or bikers sorc] in to marked units. The problem is not that he has 1 mark which is identical to the one the unit has . the problem is that he has 3 other marks which are different . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeresyPrime Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I heard about the Mark incompatibility rule junk from the resident rule lawyer (I'll put it nicely and say that he would be the last person that I'd invite to Christmas dinner) at the shop I game at and my first thought was: "What the *&%^." I'd refuse to play anyone pulled that crap - right or wrong until its faq'd. As for his killing power for the points, meh. He's confused by 13+ armor now without being S8 all the time and a gazillion attacks from his daemon weapon in 4th Ed. He could just brute force blow something up. Now with fewer attacks, you have to be lucky to deal with it or have something else in his retinue to deal with high armor. He is a force multiplier against loyalist armies with Black Crusader and kills them dead. Also you can work with his marks, like sinking him into a Noise Marine squad with the Icon and give him FNP. If Abaddon is on fire, he can easily be points cost effective. I had a Necron player shoot his whole 2800 point force (escalation league) at Abaddon before he went down. Considering how much other stuff the Necron player could have killed, I still think it was worth the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Dude what rules lawyering , what crap . He has marks listed in his profile . you have a rule that HQs with different marks then the unit cant join , what is there to not understand . It is as clear as day . He is a force multiplier against loyalist armies with Black Crusader and kills them dead. Also you can work with his marks, like sinking him into a Noise Marine squad with the Icon and give him FNP. which you cant because it is illegal . dude its like saying that our termis would be uber awesome after we put them in to BA storm raven . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Abaddon plus unit of bullet catchers in a Landraider is quite respectable. In fact it's a circumstance where Possessed might be pretty good since he can also soak some wounds for the unit and they act as a counter point to numbers whilst he smashes elites. Problem with that combination is the difficulty you now get from assaulting enmasse with a multitude of units, since Rhinos are now all but useless to assault units (why Chaos didn't get a generic Daemon Engine which could be left open topped to allow assaults without paying for a Landraider I don't know), so it becomes more of a deathstar than it should be. Problem for Loyalists too really but they get Drop Pods. Chaos should be more elite and choppy than loyalists but that's a different discussion for another thread I guess. Anyway, Abaddon is very scary to face. He's probably the hardest character in the game by a long way and even with just a squad of cheap Chaos Marines with pistols he can and will chew through enemy armies. Just as long as he can get there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 it doesnt work like that . your not checking if a if an HQ has the same mark to join , you checking if he doesnt have a different one. If you were just checking if they have the same , you wouldnt be able to put undivided HQs[huron or bikers sorc] in to marked units. The problem is not that he has 1 mark which is identical to the one the unit has . the problem is that he has 3 other marks which are different . That he has multiple Marks doesn't mean every other Mark removes benefits from each other. He can join the unit with X Mark and the unit with X Mark can join him because he has X Mark, Marks W, Y and Z do not come into play nor should their presence be a condition of the benefit Mark X bestows, nor does his having all the Marks prevent him from joining an un-Marked unit. His other 3 Marks, for the purposes of the joining unit, equate to him having no other Mark than the one that allows them to join in the first place. The only case that can be made for multiple Marks to detract from one another is that he doesn't unlock Cult units as Troops, unlike a mono-Mark Lord, because he unlocks Chosen instead, as is written. By RAW logic, there is no type of unit that Abaddon cannot join, nor are there types of unit that cannot join Abaddon unless the unit itself is forbidden to join characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargame insomniac Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 That's the way I HOPE that rule was meant but I can see some pedantic rules lawyers arguing otherwise. I think that has to be RAI as otherwise could only run Abaddon could only be taken with undivided units. I know he leas the Black Legion but given that BL fields all cult units I think that would be odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 That he has multiple Marks doesn't mean every other Mark removes benefits from each other. Yes it does; that is actually exactly what it means. Pg 30, CSM Codex states: 'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos'. This is cut and dry simple- He has the Mark of Nurgle, so cannot join units with the Mark of Slaanesh, Khorne or Tzeentch; he has the Mark of Khorne, so cannot join a unit with the Mark of Nurgle. Look at it any way that you want THESE ARE THE RULES AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. It doesn't make sense, but common sense means that you are applying the logic of 'Well the rules were clearly not intended to be used that way, so I will use them my way, which is not how your opponents/ tournament organisers will look at this. Marks W, Y and Z do not come into play ... His other 3 Marks, for the purposes of the joining unit, equate to him having no other Mark than the one that allows them to join in the first place. WRONG. nor does his having all the Marks prevent him from joining an un-Marked unit There is nothing preventing a Marked Character joining an Unmarked unit, so this is still the case with Abbadon- he can join any UNMARKED UNIT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeresyPrime Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Dude what rules lawyering , what crap . He has marks listed in his profile . you have a rule that HQs with different marks then the unit cant join , what is there to not understand . It is as clear as day . which you cant because it is illegal . dude its like saying that our termis would be uber awesome after we put them in to BA storm raven . It doesn't matter because I get to run him the way I want to where I play, which is generally the local GW store. Even the manager ruled in my favor, and I get to continue sinking Abaddon in marked units until Nottingham comes down with a new FAQ that deals with it. If someone throws a fit about it, they can play someone else. I <3 me some RAI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yes it does; that is actually exactly what it means. Pg 30, CSM Codex states: 'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos'. This is cut and dry simple- He has the Mark of Nurgle, so cannot join units with the Mark of Slaanesh, Khorne or Tzeentch; he has the Mark of Khorne, so cannot join a unit with the Mark of Nurgle. Look at it any way that you want THESE ARE THE RULES AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. It doesn't make sense, but common sense means that you are applying the logic of 'Well the rules were clearly not intended to be used that way, so I will use them my way, which is not how your opponents/ tournament organisers will look at this. Categorical nonsense. Pg 30 states "may not join with a different Mark of Chaos." Abaddon doesn't have a different Mark of Chaos, he has all the Marks of Chaos, as stipulated under the description of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant being comprised of all four Marks with all the benefits provided from each Mark. This isn't a matter of 'or', it's a matter of 'and'. The joining unit has X Mark, Abaddon has X Mark and the other Marks, none of which countermand the effects of X Mark. He can join a unit with Mark of Nurgle because he has a Mark of Nurgle. He can join a unit with Mark of Khorne because he has a Mark of Khorne. That he has the other Marks doesn't erase the relevant Mark; that they don't have the other Marks doesn't erase the fact that they have their Mark and so does he. THAT is the rules as written. They don't have a "different Mark of Chaos" from him because there is no different Mark of Chaos that he doesn't possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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