Excessus Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yes it does; that is actually exactly what it means. Pg 30, CSM Codex states: 'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos'. This is cut and dry simple- He has the Mark of Nurgle, so cannot join units with the Mark of Slaanesh, Khorne or Tzeentch; he has the Mark of Khorne, so cannot join a unit with the Mark of Nurgle. Look at it any way that you want THESE ARE THE RULES AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. It doesn't make sense, but common sense means that you are applying the logic of 'Well the rules were clearly not intended to be used that way, so I will use them my way, which is not how your opponents/ tournament organisers will look at this. Categorical nonsense. Pg 30 states "may not join with a different Mark of Chaos." Abaddon doesn't have a different Mark of Chaos, he has all the Marks of Chaos, as stipulated under the description of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant being comprised of all four Marks with all the benefits provided from each Mark. This isn't a matter of 'or', it's a matter of 'and'. The joining unit has X Mark, Abaddon has X Mark and the other Marks, none of which countermand the effects of X Mark. He can join a unit with Mark of Nurgle because he has a Mark of Nurgle. He can join a unit with Mark of Khorne because he has a Mark of Khorne. That he has the other Marks doesn't erase the relevant Mark; that they don't have the other Marks doesn't erase the fact that they have their Mark and so does he. THAT is the rules as written. They don't have a "different Mark of Chaos" from him because there is no different Mark of Chaos that he doesn't possess. The problem is that the mark rules doesn't say anything about what you can do, only what you can't! Abby joining a unit is covered in the rulebook under Independent Characters, the codex puts in limitations, that an Independent Character(Abby) can't join a unit with a different mark, as an example, Plague Marines has MoN, clearly a different mark than MoK, or MoS, or MoT. It doesn't matter that Abby also has MoN, that isn't covered by the rule... [Edit]: I know this is silly, but that's what the rule say. I would never deny my opponent the opportunity to join abby to a marked unit though, that would be ridiculous(especially since abby from the start is uneconomical to have). But you can't deny that it's what the rule actually says! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yes it does; that is actually exactly what it means. Pg 30, CSM Codex states: 'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos'. This is cut and dry simple- He has the Mark of Nurgle, so cannot join units with the Mark of Slaanesh, Khorne or Tzeentch; he has the Mark of Khorne, so cannot join a unit with the Mark of Nurgle. Look at it any way that you want THESE ARE THE RULES AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. It doesn't make sense, but common sense means that you are applying the logic of 'Well the rules were clearly not intended to be used that way, so I will use them my way, which is not how your opponents/ tournament organisers will look at this. Categorical nonsense. Pg 30 states "may not join with a different Mark of Chaos." Abaddon doesn't have a different Mark of Chaos, he has all the Marks of Chaos, as stipulated under the description of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant being comprised of all four Marks with all the benefits provided from each Mark. This isn't a matter of 'or', it's a matter of 'and'. The joining unit has X Mark, Abaddon has X Mark and the other Marks, none of which countermand the effects of X Mark. He can join a unit with Mark of Nurgle because he has a Mark of Nurgle. He can join a unit with Mark of Khorne because he has a Mark of Khorne. That he has the other Marks doesn't erase the relevant Mark; that they don't have the other Marks doesn't erase the fact that they have their Mark and so does he. THAT is the rules as written. They don't have a "different Mark of Chaos" from him because there is no different Mark of Chaos that he doesn't possess. The problem is that the mark rules doesn't say anything about what you can do, only what you can't! Abby joining a unit is covered in the rulebook under Independent Characters, the codex puts in limitations, that an Independent Character(Abby) can't join a unit with a different mark, as an example, Plague Marines has MoN, clearly a different mark than MoK, or MoS, or MoT. It doesn't matter that Abby also has MoN, that isn't covered by the rule... [Edit]: I know this is silly, but that's what the rule say. I would never deny my opponent the opportunity to join abby to a marked unit though, that would be ridiculous(especially since abby from the start is uneconomical to have). But you can't deny that it's what the rule actually says! This. The test to see if a Abbaddon could join a unit would go as follows: 1) Does Abbadon have a mark of chaos? Yes, so we check to see if it is a different mark. b ) Does Abbadon have a different mark of chaos? Either: 1) the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is it's own unique mark, in which chase no other model in the chaos codex has it, and accordingly, Abbadon cannot join any unit with a mark other than the Mark of Chaos Ascendant; or, 2) the Mark of Chaos Ascendant counts as all four marks of chaos, in which case Abbadon will always have at least 1 different mark than the unit he is trying to join, and therefore cannot join any other unit with a mark of chaos. This is a pretty black and white issue. It's not even a gray area. It is 100% crystal clear that Abbadon cannot join a unit other than an unmarked one. If you play it otherwise, you are cheating until GW decides to release an amendment/errata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Templar Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Lets say is a large club, with four seperate bars inside it and each club requires its own seperate membership sigil on a card to enter. Signs at each club state that only members with a that sigil can enter, members with different sigils are not allowed. You happened to be super cool, so your card has all four sigils on it. Does that mean you cannot enter any of the clubs? Of course not. You have a card with all the sigils and are therefore allowed into all. Yep, it is super easy to understand until people try to make it much more complicated than it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Signs at each club state that only members with a that sigil can enter, members with different sigils are not allowed. But that is not what the rules says. To follow you analogy, each club has signs that say anyone with another clubs sigil is not welcome. That is how the rule is stated. Nothing is stated about sameness. Yep, it is super easy to understand until people try to make it much more complicated than it really is. Don't add things that are not there and it does not get complicated at all. And for what it's worth, all this has been hammered out before in OR ... http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=267632 The rule is broke. I would be willing to bet that it is the most universal house rule at the moment to alow Abaddon to join any unit. But it has to be a house rule because the codex does not allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Guys this is a tactical discussion of Abby and how he rates compared to others. We've already got a topic about Abby's mark in the Official Rules don't we? Abaddon plus unit of bullet catchers in a Landraider is quite respectable. In fact it's a circumstance where Possessed might be pretty good since he can also soak some wounds for the unit and they act as a counter point to numbers whilst he smashes elites. Honestly I think I'd rather just Deepstrike him with some combi plas termies and watch them soak fire for a turn or two. Maybe even add a bio sorc for some possible FnP goodness. Possessed would probably work pretty well for Abby except they can sweep and he can't. I dunno that's just a big deal for me. Love being able to do that to Crons for example. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yeah totally. My Necrons totally enjoyed getting charged by Chaos Terminaters in a recent game and losing the combat just so they can run away safely and I can shoot those Chaos boys in the next turn. So it's a major down side to Terminaters and Abaddon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Guys this is a tactical discussion of Abby and how he rates compared to others. We've already got a topic about Abby's mark in the Official Rules don't we? Abaddon plus unit of bullet catchers in a Landraider is quite respectable. In fact it's a circumstance where Possessed might be pretty good since he can also soak some wounds for the unit and they act as a counter point to numbers whilst he smashes elites. Honestly I think I'd rather just Deepstrike him with some combi plas termies and watch them soak fire for a turn or two. Maybe even add a bio sorc for some possible FnP goodness. Possessed would probably work pretty well for Abby except they can sweep and he can't. I dunno that's just a big deal for me. Love being able to do that to Crons for example. :tu: Which units Abbadon can or cannot join is pretty key when establishing what tactics are viable when using him in comparison to other characters. Especially when illegal tactics/combos (such as Abby + DS noise marines) are brought into the discussion. What about abbadon + cultists? Cheap ablative wounds that will tend to pull CC score in opponents favour (making it less likely that they will fall back from Abby, potentially letting him get another round of melee in before they fall back from him, hopefully on their turn). I've also thought about using him as a counter charge unit for a more shooty army (which can maybe benefit from 5 man plasma/heavy weapon chosen units). He and his cultists can man the aegis line and use his high BS and precision shot to shoot the gun before he is needed for counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yes it is but the RAW on it is that he cannot join the unit. Till it's updated that's just the way it is. The post that it has been debated over is earlier up in this thread. I dunno about Cultists. Sure it'd be alot of wounds but really if someone knows Abby's in the unit, they're probably going to steer clear of him. I would anyway. Now on the other hand using him as a counter charge unit that may have some merit. What sort of squad should he go with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Problem with Cultists is they take up the same space as power armoured models in a Landraider so you won't get extra models and will be easier to kill if you want mobility. But on foot they are a viable option. Teleporting in with Chaos Terminators is always good as well, of course, and saves points on a Landraider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 A thought occurred in my warped mind! Would be fun if Abby decided to teleport down with cultists as a sacrifice to the gods, hahaha. Imagine the horror his opponents feels when Abby materializes close to them alongside several dozens of warped skeletons and/or burned out bodies! ;) A fluffy strategy from the übermench that doesn't care about the common man! "-Did you just DS Abby alone?" "-Well, he was in a unit of 35 cultists..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I think since he has every mark, he can be be in ANY unit. I think that limitation while fluffy, is dumb anyways. It's the other way around actually, since he has all four marks he will always have a different mark than any unit he joins. The mark rule doesn't allow anything per se, it forbids if there is a different mark between the unit and IC... It's ridiculous, and I'm not familiar with anyone that would enforce that sillyness(especially since Abby is bad enough as it is), so feel free to ignore it in his case. :D Yeah, for his point cost, we make an exception. We have made more than a few house/group rulings. Like if an IC that has grenades joins a squad that doesn't have grenades, that squad effectively counts as having grenades-or if another squad that has grenades "shoots" with an assault grenade in the shooting round and it doesn't scatter off, all squads that assault the unit(s) hit with the assault grenade count as having assault grenades that turn (fits in with GW's 'cinematic' approach) I'm lobbying for Mark of Slaanesh making unwieldly weapons i2, and power lances being 2 handed (1 less attack) but being +1 initaitve ap2 on the charge, with ap4 strength as user normally, Beserkers to have their special unit-specific weapon standard (Chainaxes/Khornate Weapons similar to plague knives) and for them to be ap5 with rending against units with an armor save so no genestealer-esque attacking tanks with chainaxes, and the full list of "special weapons" options for all squads that can take special weapons (2 heavies, 2 special close combat weapons, 2 special weapons in any combination) or at least allowing 2 special close combat weapons in a Beserker unit. Cause Phil and GW Started so well...and if I'm willing to pay the points I should have the option to pay for those things since my army doesn't follow the Codex Astartes, they shouldn't be limited. I know there are instances where balance is brought into question (more than 2 specials per non Chosen unit, even in squads larger than 10 guys) so I don't push for that, but I hardly think embeded power weapons will be such a radical unbalancing thing. I've already successfully won the use of drop pods (standard 10 man ones like everyone not Vanilla uses with standard "drop pod assault" rules) and let me tell you those go a long way to getting us away from "Orks in Powerarmor with megazords" lists and LOL Allies and Cultists ahoy GW seems to be pushing (and is key in my World Eaters army). We're convening a meeting to discuss these issues and the formation of a campaign and 'map design'. We don't do random terrain but have set table setups and rules. GW even says they encourage the development of your own rules. It's nice when everything works out find and dandy and you go for playing in tournaments, but it's better to be able to play the army you want to play. I digress, excessively. I played with abaddon here recently with a chosen army, as it was how I wanted to portray my army and I had a lot of fun. It was hellaciously expensive, but I had each champion customized and named, each unit was a mix of guys (and to be fair it was a "count as" abaddon, though I did use the metal model...sans top knot). I got him into close combat a Lonewolf and his wolves vs Archangel (Abby) and his "pets" (Spawn with MoS). My champion of Squad 2 Dante won his challenge (pistolero'd a wound off a rune priest, with a precision plasma pistol shot and then challenged him in the ensuring combat, lopping off the bastard's head with his sword!) and Pokevolved into a Daemon Prince and proceeded to go on quite the tear. Archangel ended up getting Spawned after winning a challenge with a wolf lord (though he did get all his wounds back...talk about getting trolled by chaos), and we ruled it to having the multi-mark still and he continued to go on fighting surpisingly effectively (luckily one of my Spawn had died earlier so I didn't have to straight up remove Abby from play) and ended up tying up a unit of Longfangs. It was a rough bit of business getting him into play-I ran him up the board behind the rhinos laden with chosen, and I admit I was lucky to get him into close combat at all, but I was playing against The One Fluffy Wolf player who doesn't mix-max all to hell and never dropped flags (Wolves were his first army-and oldest army). I still ended up losing, but I had a lot of fun. They were truly my army, I paid through the nose in points for it...but it was mine and was probablly the best game I've had all year, and the most fun I've had playing 40k in a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Also, the whole thing about various marked ICs not being able to join alternatively marked units is stupid. I think what they were trying to do was prevent people from trying to buy half the squad of Chaos Space Marines Mark of Slaanesh, and half Mark or nurgle and give them the icons of Excess and Vengence cause that's the sort of Try-Hard crap some people would try. I think that's why you can't mix and match the icons either (which is damn unfortunate, I was hoping to mix and match-MoS guys with Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne Guys with Feel No pain and the like) Giving the last codex (that this one is based on) and the "all inclusiveness" it's kind of dumb they went back on that for this one, fluff or not. I'll see about changing that with the group, but as it is I don't much need it as my World Eaters are mono god, and my Nightblades are pretty much Mono god too (all MoS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargame insomniac Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I think not allowing e.g. a character with moK to NOT join a unit with MoS is a good thing. Prevents people just riding roughshod completely over background. But I would have no problem with Abaddon joining any marked unit as he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loku Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Well we have the answer..... in the new FAQ! Q: Does Abaddon the Despoiler’s Mark of Chaos Ascendant prevent him from joining friendly units chosen from Codex: Chaos Space Marines that have a Mark of Chaos ? (p57) A: No. So.... Abaddon can join to an unit of Berzerkers or Plague Marines without any problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargame insomniac Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 At last. A triumph of common sense. One less thing to argue over with total eegits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 At last. A triumph of common sense. One less thing to argue over with total eegits! Not that I know of anyone that would actually enforce the silly rule before. It was mostly just people talking about it, the thing was rather obvious as RAI... Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Yup, and now it's raw as well, so we can put it to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Death is nothing compared to vindication. You're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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