Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Since the Emperor is no longer alive to lead mankind, the belief in his divinity is neccessary to focus the minds of the human population. Without a focus on the Emperor, their minds would be free to wander and to be lapped up by other deities. Mainly by the evil space gods of Chaos, since the non-chaos deities are not particularly interrested in human followers. Hopefully any returning Primarch would recognise that. Recognize that? How? The Emperor never taught them. The two primarchs most likely to understand are Magnus and Lorgar, both of whom obviously turned traitor. I would accept what you're saying except the Emperor never taught anyone (save perhaps Malcador) what the effect of the Warp was and why anything deviating from athiesm was to be torched, at least, the real reasons why humanity had to be so focused and single minded. Thus, the one who had the worst impact on the Legions was clearly the Emperor :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Recognize that? How? The Emperor never taught them. The two primarchs most likely to understand are Magnus and Lorgar, both of whom obviously turned traitor. I would accept what you're saying except the Emperor never taught anyone (save perhaps Malcador) what the effect of the Warp was and why anything deviating from athiesm was to be torched And then they had a seven year war against the forces of Chaos, followed by another decade or so mopping up the remaining forces of Chaos. Guilliman proceeded to lead his Chapter for another hundred years, and would probably have seen a few more things during that time. Other Primarchs like Dorn outlived him and were around even longer. But if that matter of "they didn't know" is brought up I can allways only sadly shake my head and point out that in the previous lore, the Great Crusade was explicitely waged to turn back the rising dominion of Chaos in the material realm. And the council of Nikaea only outlawed sorcery. But at some point someone over at GW felt that the entire plot made too much sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 16 of the Primarchs weren't even aware of Chaos until the Heresy broke out. And 1 of the other 2 knew what Chaos but didn't fully recognize it until Russ was knocking on his door. So why would the only four Primarchs who have a chance of returning to the Imperium would realize that turning the Imperium into the very thing they fought against, the thing that they slaughtered hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of people to destroy? I don't think they will be quite as understanding and go "Oh, the very thing we only murdered half of humanity to get rid of was actually the best course of action all along." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 They all witnessed what "the Dark Gods" did to their brothers, and what they did with their forces dugin the Heresy and the Scouring. Their own Chapters have fought the servants of the Dark Gods for the past ten thousand years, and can tell them a thing or two about the dangers of Chaos, in case they have forgotten about the whole heresy business. But I assume that they will also be briefed about what they have missed over the past ten thousand years by high ranking members of the different Adeptus department, not least by an influential Inquisitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 That is a lot of assuming that people/groups who aren't regarded as being the most compassionate(except for Vulkan and Gulliman) suddenly turning their backs on their beliefs and having a nice heart-to-heart. The Loyalist Primarchs fought against all religions. Since the Imperial Cult was founded by Lorgar, I'm sure those who survived the Heresy distanced themselves from the Cult. IIRC, the Ecclesiarchy didn't even become recognized until all of the Primarchs were gone. So beings who have that different of a mindset coming to a galaxy where religion is the norm, I'm willing to bet another Great Crusade would get started up. And I don't the Inquisition is going to take to kindly to anyone who says the Emperor isn't a god. They have enough problems with Loyalist Marines not worshipping him the same way the Ecclesiarchy does. So if the Primarchs returned, I believe that it would end up causing an even bigger war than the Heresy was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Where is it said that the primarchs didn't know about Chaos? Horus explained to Loken what a daemon was, it just wasn't given a religious name. No, I think that every primarch knew about chaos and the warp, they just didn't treat them like gods. Heck, even during the heresy not all of them called them gods. To quote from Butchers Nails, Angron said, "those you call gods" showing that while he knew they existed (which would be obvious by now), he did not think they were gods. Also, I don't think that Magnus and Lorgar are the only ones who would see it in modern days. I think Legatus is right, all of them would see it. And if not all, Sanguinius would. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 The discussion became quite lively in the other thread, so rather than depriving you all of the debate I will instead move the posts over to this thread. However, any further posts in the "Primarch impact" thread on this subject will be removed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 They know what the warp is and they know beings exist in it. In Descent of Angels(the earliest in the timeline we've gone), we see the beings referred to as "warp xenos." But that's like looking at the ocean and saying that there's fish in it. You may know what's there, but you lack comprehension of just what that is. At the time of the Heresy, like I said, only two primarchs were even close to being fully aware of the nature of those beings; Magnus and Lorgar. After the Heresy, yes they would be aware of it. Nowhere have I disagreed with that. What I am saying is that when the Loyalist Primarchs all either died or vanished, they would still be against religion. Coming to the "modern" Imperium which has gone through the rise of the Imperial Cult, its own Inquisition and at least one religious civil war, is going to be radically different in their eyes. These are still beings who are oathsworn against all religion in favor of bringing Imperial enlightenment. It's like putting oil into water. Difference is, the two will fight. The Inquisition will not be friendly to unbelievers. They never have. And the Primarchs are not going to be happy that the Imperium became the very thing they dedicated their lives against. Gulliman with his notions of equality is not going to like the fact that inequality is integral to its functions. Corax will not be happy with the fact the Imperium is a giant sweatshop, just like the Deliverance he freed so long ago. And Vulkan is not going to be happy that the Imperium is a giant meatgrinder that relentlessly crushes its own citizens into the dust. The only one who might tolerate it is Russ, but I bet he will even have problems. However, all of them will agree that the Ecclesiarchy is something that's gotta go. Especially since it was a byproduct of a religion Lorgar created, which is even more of a reason for them not to like it. Did posts get deleted? Dangnabbit Thirst! You're throwing into all kinds of loops and confoundments! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I don't know, I think the last of the loyalists might have been around when the Ecclessiarchy started. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think they saw the beginning of the growth of the cults that would one day become the Ecclesiarchy, but I don't think they say it specifically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 According to the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, several different Cults started to spring up within decades of the Emperor's incarceration into the Golden Throne. So at least Guilliman and Dorn would have witnessed that. But then in 2nd Edition the Imperial Cult had already existed during the Great Crusade. Edit: Either way, I do think that any Primarch who had been out for since the Heresy would enquire about how things have developed over the past ten thousand years of his absence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Even now, the Imperial Cult exists. It's just detested/tolerated by the Emperor and his Imperium at large. So every Primarch is aware of its existence, and the fact that the Emperor did not approve of it. And I'm not saying they wouldn't try to find out what happened, just that they will not like the answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 The Primarchs were aware of warp species but ignorant to the truth. That is the Emperor's fault as outlined above. In Legion and Descent of Angels (as said above) show some of the first contacts with what they described as 'warp xenos' which is a grave misunderstanding of the nature of what dwells in the warp. When the Alpha Legion tell Grammaticus they are aware of the "warp xenos threat" and have them recorded in the catalogue of hostile xeno species, Grammaticus is correct in saying they have no idea what they are dealing with. Even the two Primarchs that had an understanding that the 'warp xenos' were not what the Imperium said they were misunderstood the threat and nature of Chaos. Lorgar knew that there was something "out there". Magnus had an inkling of what Chaos was and the power of the 'shadow in the warp' but his hubris in his abilities blinded him to reality of the danger in dealing with such entities. One of the saddest moments in the First Heretic for me was that Magnus made the same mistake with Lorgar that the Emperor made with everyone; he refused to tell Lorgar of the dangers that lay within the Eye of Terror. He could have easily taken Lorgar aside and said "Hey brother; there ARE entities of great power in the warp but these creatures are not worthy of worship. They are dangerous and dealing with them cost me my eye. Look elsewhere." While I doubt that would have dissuaded Lorgar from taking his journey it might have turned the tide as Lorgar fostered many doubts throughout the beginning of his pilgrimage. Maybe it would have been enough. Maybe not. I could just see Guilliman getting up from the Fortress of Hera and being told his archenemy's ideas were the mainstream in the Imperium. After Hulk Smashing the guy giving the debriefing with his Fist of Destiny, he would gather up his successors and proceed to on a crusade to rid the Imperium of that pestilence. I am pretty sure every one of the Primarchs, if they came back, would have such a reaction. Perhaps the surviving Primarchs had a hand in the creation of the Ecclesiastical system and its importance in the 40k Imperium but as Kol Saresk said, these arent exactly understanding dudes and they were devoted to the Imperial Truth. Maybe they would support the idea of the Emperor becoming "Ascendant" upon his permanent seating on the Golden Throne but I doubt it. The Primarchs were believers and convinced of the greater virtues of their cause and their leader and post-Heresy they know the dangers that the worship of false idols can cause having seen their brothers 'corrupted'. I just dont see their ideals being able to compromise with a decision like this and as K.S. wisely says "especially since it was a byproduct of a religion Lorgar created". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 And this is why they can never return until the Emperor returns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I kin of have to wonder how he would react. Technically, it's against his wishes so he should be on the wrathful side of things. Then again, it i also supposed to empower him so destroying the religion would weaken him, if that is the case. That one's a puzzle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think the Emperor would start turning people inside out with a look or crushing their brains to pulp inside their skull if he got up "tomorrow" and realized the empire he built had fallen so far from what he seemed to have wanted for mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I'm not sure exactly how much the Lion knew about the Chaos gods, but he knew about daemons and sorcery. He came from a planet that was pretty tainted by Chaos and he fought against Chaos cults in a few of the worlds he liberated. He also had the entire librarys from the Knightly Orders he had destroyed before the Emperor came to his planet. I would gather that they spoke of "dark gods". I really liked the Dark Angel HH books thus far! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3260981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Lorgar apparently thought that promoting the belief in the Emperor's divinity was a-ok. So I am not sure how devoted the other Primarchs really were to maintaining an "imperial truth". They did not seem outraged at Lorgar for his actions at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3261042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Putting aside the issue of earlier sources (canon debates weigh down so many threads...), I feel that in the HH series as it stands now we have a hole, plot-wise, in why the Emperor didn't make the Chaos Gods known to his primarch sons. If doing so serves some goal of the Emperor's, such as he thinks that teaching them about the Chaos Deities will corrupt them then we need to know about it for the E not to look like a fool (we need at least to know that he has a reason to keep this from them, if not the specifics). The Emperor is supposed to be eons old and possessed of great wisdom, but to me this does not jive with how he shuts down Lorgar, knowing there are deities waiting to pick him (Lorgar) up and manipulate him. (Of course, there are theories that all this was part of the E's grand plan anyway). Let's speculate what the Monarchia scene and aftermath could have looked like if the Emperor had taught and warned Lorgar about the Chaos Gods: -Lorgar would still have denied the Emperor's claims he was not divine, and also have his bitterness and resentment stoked by the episode with the humiliation in front of Guilliman, etc. -L would have been primed to be far more suspicious of Kor Phaeron and Erebus's proselytizing when he got the first wiff of Chaos. The Emperor would have told Lorgar of the Chaos Gods MO, of their thousands of years of planing, subtle words, etc. Lorgar may, however, still have followed Erebus/KP, as he is so driven to worship anything remotely "divine." Also, from The First Heretic, we see Lorgar's baby capsule infested with extra "evil chaos fog" as it travelled through space, with the implication it messed with his head and served the CG's purposes of creating their missionary primarch. I'll grant that this effect could have damaged Lorgar, but not that it caused his behavior or dictated his decisions--if it did then Lorgar's actions really have no meaning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267730-the-knowledge-of-the-primarchs-on-the-chaos-gods/#findComment-3261329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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