Vanguard Vets

[Rutzah]

I 've been thinking about Vanguard Vets for a long time now and i am trying to fit them in my list.

 

Whats your experience with them? Anyone tried them in a competitive list?

 

Whats the way to go? 10man to be able to combat squad them or 7-8 man? Two 5man seems the way to go for me. They are expensive i know but i think they are worth it.

 

How would you build a list to support them? Any feedback is appreciated

[Deschenus Maximus]

They are not a competitive unit, sadly.

 

They had a niche use in 5th with full-on DoA lists, but with the demise of that army type in 6th, there is really no pointto them anymore.

 

Fun unit, though.

[Morticon]

They are not a competitive unit, sadly.

 

They had a niche use in 5th with full-on DoA lists, but with the demise of that army type in 6th, there is really no pointto them anymore.

 

Fun unit, though.

 

 

Gotta throw in my coins here to disagree.

I think they have a great place.

They have a gained both a pro and a con in 6th. The pro is that your average dice roll for a charge is 7" now. Possibly more, making unfavourable scatters less of an issue. The con is overwatch.

 

I dont believe that they're niche in DOA lists, either. I played a full 10 man squad (which I recommend if you play at around 1750points or more) in the 2011 Nationals tournament and played top table in the last game (Which I lost 7-6 KP). Nationals 2011 BatRep - While it may be a 5th ed tourney, the list was definitely not a DOA list, and you can see how a squad like the vets can fit in.

 

The difficulty now is that there are even more things to factor in (fliers!) and they become very expensive very quickly, taking away units from the board, concentrating fire on the units you have on it from turn one. Couple this for the propensity towards BA taking fliers, having 500points off the board becomes a bit crippling sometimes.

 

I like 10 man squads simply for the ability to combat squad and hit two units at the same time. Great for long fang packs and static guard or gunlines. I ran mine with TH and PF, though, I would probably go 2 axes, or axe and fist in 6thd ed, and maybe 2 MBs.

[Jolemai]

Would you still consider seven to be the minimum amount?

Also, would it be worth having one equipped with a Storm Shield to eat up the Overwatch fire? (Or do I have my wires crossed with this one?)

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Although they're more expensive, DC in a Pod do everything that VVs do and they do it better.

 

Actually, DC in a Pod are about the same points, if not slightly cheaper than VVs with JPs.

[Morticon]

Although they're more expensive, DC in a Pod do everything that VVs do and they do it better.

 

Actually, DC in a Pod are about the same points, if not slightly cheaper than VVs with JPs.

 

Probs a bit cheaper I think Res.

 

But, why do you say they have the same role? DC in a pod come down, fire some bolters/pistols and at best 2 IPs, and then what? They can only hope to delay the enemy - i guess thats what you mean yeh, disruption? I just find for the role of disruption, the ability to get into combat, do damage, be able to pick your battles, dictate the charge, and then either win that combat, or have the enemy need to dedicate more units into that combat to win (without shooting prior to charging) its a lot more effective.

Also, ala the mephiston and deployment discussion, having vanguard makes your enemy play differently, and that really is a boon. The DC does something similar I guess, but I feel theyre too easily (in the greater scheme of things) dealt with. Where else do you feel theyre similar? And what else am I missing out on.

[Ushtarador]

When I run VV's, I run them around 6 guys big with meltabombs, powersword on the sarge and poweraxe in the squad. Their only purpose is to kill long-range firesupport units, and that they do very well. Killing 2 tanks with multicharge is awesome and very easy with meltabombs as well :lol: If you want to charge something that can fight back, you'll have to make them bigger though.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The difficulty now is that there are even more things to factor in (fliers!) and they become very expensive very quickly, taking away units from the board, concentrating fire on the units you have on it from turn one. Couple this for the propensity towards BA taking fliers, having 500points off the board becomes a bit crippling sometimes.

 

Pretty much sums up why they aren't good. You have too many things to worry about in 6th to waste 350+ pts on a unit that is, all in all, slightly better than ASM but doesn't score.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Although they're more expensive, DC in a Pod do everything that VVs do and they do it better.

 

Actually, DC in a Pod are about the same points, if not slightly cheaper than VVs with JPs.

 

Probs a bit cheaper I think Res.

 

But, why do you say they have the same role? DC in a pod come down, fire some bolters/pistols and at best 2 IPs, and then what? They can only hope to delay the enemy - i guess thats what you mean yeh, disruption? I just find for the role of disruption, the ability to get into combat, do damage, be able to pick your battles, dictate the charge, and then either win that combat, or have the enemy need to dedicate more units into that combat to win (without shooting prior to charging) its a lot more effective.

Also, ala the mephiston and deployment discussion, having vanguard makes your enemy play differently, and that really is a boon. The DC does something similar I guess, but I feel theyre too easily (in the greater scheme of things) dealt with. Where else do you feel theyre similar? And what else am I missing out on.

 

Well, yeah. Disruption really. I used VVs to come down in the enemy's DZ and tie up (and hopefully eliminate) long-range units like Long Fangs and Devastators and slagging tanks. VVs however have the risk of not showing up until it's too late whereas Podded DC come down first turn and don't run the risk of mishaps. DC also put out more hurt than VVs and can take more in return. Their only real weakness compared to VVs is that they're not as mobile once they're down.

 

Plus I've found that people typically panic when DC show up in their DZ T1, which no-one ever did when VVs come down T2. Panic means mistakes, though you play at a much higher level than I do so maybe your opponents won't lose it.

[Ushtarador]

As I see it, coming in turn 2 is actually and advantage compared to arriving in turn 1. When you drop in something T1 in the enemys DZ, the rest of your army will still be in reserves or make it somewhere to the midfield - this just means that his cc-units and close-range firepower can focus that unit instead of idling around, basically giving him free shots he otherwise couldn't take. In turn 2 however, your ravens arrive and your army is on his doormat, making it a lot harder to prioritize.

Often at times I would rather roll normal reserves for my droppods than arriving in turn 1 automatically ^^ with a defense line and comm relay, which is pretty much standard if you play 2 ravens anyway, most things arrive turn 2, so that's not that much of a concern to me.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Well yeah, if you land right in front of their big guns and out in the open.

 

It's also not a guarantee that your reserves will show T2, even with a comms-relay.

[Morticon]

Comms relay is somewhat moot, what with the DoA ability- I guess its more about what else is in the list.

Also, Res - as to survivability; While it definitely wasnt as reliable as FNP on the DC, my usual tactic 2nd turn was to boost the priest (in a rhino/razor) into position to support the VV so they got FNP and FC - making them as survivable as the DC. (But again quite situational)

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Comms relay is somewhat moot, what with the DoA ability- I guess its more about what else is in the list.

Also, Res - as to survivability; While it definitely wasnt as reliable as FNP on the DC, my usual tactic 2nd turn was to boost the priest (in a rhino/razor) into position to support the VV so they got FNP and FC - making them as survivable as the DC. (But again quite situational)

 

I guess that works if you're already taking the Priest and transport anyway. I don't take a foot Priest or any kind of mech other than 'Ravens so my VVs were always somewhat fragile compared to DC.

[Rutzah]

It is a possibility but you still have DoA. Even if you fail the reserve roll you can reroll it? Its only a 3+ after all.

 

I also dont see the point in comparing the VV to DC. The Vets are gonna arrive T2 without getting shot to bits and lock whatever you choose in combat, rendering it useless most likely. The Podded DC will arrive T1 and do what exactly? Lets say they get some lucky shots and you wound something. What then? What stops your opponent to shoot them dead in one turn? (if he is that afraid of them as you said) Can you guarantee that the DC will assault T2? Moreover you find it easier to DS close to Long Fangs or Devs (in enemy's DZ) with a Pod rather than 5 jumpers? Most of the times they are protected by one way or another, making it a bit hard for my Pod to find the perfect spot to land (remember the Pod can still scatter if it lands on terrain other than impassable)

 

The only drawback i see about them is their price really and any comparison with any other unit is irrelevant to me. There is no other unit that can arrive T2 and lock two targets in CC, allowing the rest of your army to move forward, let alone a BA fast army.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

What stops your opponent shooting them dead in one turn is the cover you disembark into and their FnP. I'm not advocating that you drop the DC slap bang in front of a Dev. squad, right out in the open. No, the DC can't guarantee a T2 assault, but nor can the VV. With proper placement, odds are pretty good for both though. Yes the Pod can still scatter and the VV's advantage is that they only scatter D6" but the Pod's advantage is that it won't Mishap. I personally find that more useful. You can aim a Pod at an area that has terrain on most sides and know that even if you get a bad scatter you won't Mishap and you won't even scatter that far either since you just reduce the scatter to avoid landing on terrain/enemy units. You'll also get two turns of shooting out of a DC before you assault, while the VV won't shoot at all. Not critical but another point that favours the DC, I feel.

 

I don't see why you think VV are better at pulling off a multi-charge than DC are either. Multi-charging means that both units will lose their +1A for charging but DC still get their +2A for Rage meaning your regular VV (unsupported by a nearby Priest) gets three WS4 Attacks at S4 while your regular DC will get five WS5 Attacks at S5.

[Rutzah]

I wasnt trying to compare their damage output man, i know DC are better with build in FnP, FC, WS5 etc and much cheaper too than a 10man VVets. I am just saying they dont serve the same purpose.

[ianj253]

I think you may be using the rage rule wrong. Rage gives you +2 attacks on the charge instead of +1. When you multi charge you lose the +2 attacks and +1 strength as Rage and FC are both charge bonuses.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Ok. I guess I'm not really following what you mean by this, then;

 

There is no other unit that can arrive T2 and lock two targets in CC, allowing the rest of your army to move forward, let alone a BA fast army.

 

If by "arrive T2" you mean "assault T2" then I don't see why you don't think DC can do this. Perhaps you could clarify? Unless you mean that VV will (or can) arrive and assault T2 unscathed, while the DC will be below starting strength due to being shot up? If so, that's true but for the price of a seven-strong VV squad with a Power Weapon and Melta Bombs (Sarge) and a Power Axe (which is what I used to run) you can get a Drop Pod, two Power Weapons and nine DC so the odds are good that you'll still get seven guys into an assault and the DC will have been able to soften up the unit receiving the charge via shooting beforehand.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I think you may be using the rage rule wrong. Rage gives you +2 attacks on the charge instead of +1. When you multi charge you lose the +2 attacks and +1 strength as Rage and FC are both charge bonuses.

 

Ah. Yes, you're right.

 

So both squads will get three, S4 Attacks on the charge, but the DC's will be WS5 vs. the VVs WS4.

[Rutzah]

If by "arrive T2" you mean "assault T2" then I don't see why you don't think DC can do this. Perhaps you could clarify? Unless you mean that VV will (or can) arrive and assault T2 unscathed, while the DC will be below starting strength due to being shot up? If so, that's true but for the price of a seven-strong VV squad with a Power Weapon and Melta Bombs (Sarge) and a Power Axe (which is what I used to run) you can get a Drop Pod, two Power Weapons and nine DC so the odds are good that you'll still get seven guys into an assault and the DC will have been able to soften up the unit receiving the charge via shooting beforehand.

 

 

Yes thats what i mean. The Vets have a very specific role imo, they are gonna lock one/two units in CC, without getting shot, besides the overwatch which cant be avoided. I dont understand why you think a Pod is more reliable than a DoA unit for DS. If the Vets arrive T2 most likely they are gonna assault too. Even if they come from reserves on T3 they still gonna assault T3 guaranteed. The DC have a more generic role, disrupting your opponent, blocking him etc. As you said its not their role to DS in enemy's DZ. Thats what i mean when i say they serve a different purpose. Also I dont really like the idea of a lone pod with DC in the first round, maybe its because the armies i play against too. Yes they have FnP but they are gonna get focused by everything there is. Now if you can provide them with some decent support, its all good and they are gonna be really scary i agree.

 

Anyway to end this, in the list i am thinking i have 10 VVets AND 8x DC in a Pod, so wasnt really trying to compare them.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Fair enough. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, I'm just sharing my preference for DC over VV and the reasons. If you've had success with VVs then that's awesome. It's just that I've found DC work better in that role. It's never possible to do a direct comparison when people play in disparate metas and what works for me in my meta might not work for you in yours.

 

One last thing though; Pod DC are more reliable than VVs because the Pod is guaranteed T1. It's pretty likely that the VV will show up T2, but it's not guaranteed.

[SamaNagol]

VGV units are very very useful.

 

Take a 5 man unit with 3 melta bombs and a Sergeant with a Power Sword for only 180pts and they are incredible for back field interruption. You have an 89% chance of coming in turn 2. You are VERY likely to get the charge. They are perfect for taking out enemy Long Fangs/Devastators/Thunderfires or Quad Guns. And they score in The Scouring.

 

I would highly recommend them.

[MadMek83]

VV's fill specific slot in my unit: They're character, vehicle or heavy support assassin group. Each with melta bombs and sargeant with stomshield and cheap powerfist, throw few power weapons, expensive but they will shred anything you want but bit too expensive generally for one trick wonder but deep stricking and then using heroic intervention can make some people slight nervous and place their heavy support units less than optimal place to protect them.

 

I play mostly against nids, wolves vanillas. VV's make nice MC hunters with meltabombs / powerfist.

[Rutzah]

VGV units are very very useful.

 

Take a 5 man unit with 3 melta bombs and a Sergeant with a Power Sword for only 180pts and they are incredible for back field interruption. You have an 89% chance of coming in turn 2. You are VERY likely to get the charge. They are perfect for taking out enemy Long Fangs/Devastators/Thunderfires or Quad Guns. And they score in The Scouring.

 

I would highly recommend them.

 

 

Exactly what i had in mind. 70% of the players in my local store have Quad Guns, and i think the Vets will serve me well. Of course thats not the only thing they can do. Cant wait to playtest them.

[Krimsonkilla]

after reading all this, i've come to the conclusion that i am gonna use pod DC.......and a small VV squad :D pincer move ftw!