Entierly deep strike army

[Techmarine Harkus]

Hi. Searchy didn't seem to wan't to help me here.

 

I've been thinking for a while about a wholly deep striking army, which is only really plausible through the use of drop pods due to the 'half rounding up' restriction on how many units can go in reserve . Drop pods, which must enter by deep strike, are exempt from consideration in what is half, and as a dedicated transport, their unit gets to ride in them (obviously) without being counted either. So far so good.

 

The issue I'm having is that Independent Characters (ie your mandatory HQ choice) is considered a separate unit, when counting what 'half' is, but then must be assigned to a specific squad and stated when put in reserve (if you so choose).

 

My question then is:

Does an IC still count for the purposes of determining 'half' of your army, if he is destined to ride with a unit that is going to be embarked on a mandatory deep striking transport, which is not counted?

 

The significance of this is the rounding part of determining 'half' as one single unit which is not within drop pods can be in reserve and thus deep strike (potentially) and is that necesarrily your independant character, or is that privilage open to a terminator squad, or assault marines/ land speeders or whatever other *one* unit you may wish to have also deep striking with your drop pod army. (The exception I suppose would be any fliers you wish to include, as they will be forced into reserve also; by their nature.)

 

My feeling, is that the IC is going to count as (probably) your one unit in the army that is not in a pod. My reason for doubting this, apart from wanting the option of another non-pod unit in the army while retaining all deep strike, is that the reasoning behind the restriction of the number of reserve units is to prevent players excessively putting units in reserve to further whatever ends (wastes a whole turn of the game at the least). Since half your pods will turn up on turn one, this isn't really a problem of stalling tactics, just a more interesting deployment strategy.

 

I have also considered command squads, because it seemed like the perfect solution. Alas, the current codex say nothing about 'retinues' in the way the old rules handled them, so as it stands a command squad is a completely separate unit from your character, which does not take up FOC space and your character may join if he so chooses... but still only in the same capacity as he might join a tactical marine squad or similar.

 

Thanks in advance for your input, or at least for reading this far down the post.

[Jacinda]

First, let me give you a short example.

 

HQ - 1 commander

Troops - 2 X tac squads in drop pods.

 

Drop pods must start in reserve. Commander goes in reserve since half of one is 1/2 rounded up to 1 so inreserves he goes.

 

Your opponent get the first turn. He stands around doing nothing and ends his turn. Since you have nothing on the board at the end of the turn, he wins.

[dswanick]

"When working out how many units can be placed in Reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike(along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.", BRB, Pg.36

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I don't have time to quote the text, but this was in the latest FAQ. Anything on a Transport, Dedicated or not, that must start in reserve doesn't count when you're working out the 50% max. limit.

 

Thus a squad of, say, Hammernators with an attached Librarian and a Dreadnought can all ride on a Stormraven and none count towards the limit. Similarly, an IC attached to a squad in a Drop Pod won't count either.

[dswanick]

Your opponent get the first turn. He stands around doing nothing and ends his turn. Since you have nothing on the board at the end of the turn, he wins.

Incorret, it's Game turn not Player turn and your pods will be arriving in your first player turn. BRB, Pg.122.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

First, let me give you a short example.

 

HQ - 1 commander

Troops - 2 X tac squads in drop pods.

 

Drop pods must start in reserve. Commander goes in reserve since half of one is 1/2 rounded up to 1 so inreserves he goes.

 

Your opponent get the first turn. He stands around doing nothing and ends his turn. Since you have nothing on the board at the end of the turn, he wins.

 

50% of Drop Pods come in on your first Movement phase.

[dswanick]

I don't have time to quote the text, but this was in the latest FAQ. Anything on a Transport, Dedicated or not, that must start in reserve doesn't count when you're working out the 50% max. limit.

 

Thus a squad of, say, Hammernators with an attached Librarian and a Dreadnought can all ride on a Stormraven and none count towards the limit. Similarly, an IC attached to a squad in a Drop Pod won't count either.

Nope, it's units that must deploy by Deep Strike and those Embarked. Units that must start in Reserve only allow their Embarked unit to not count if it is Dedicated.

So Droppods discount any models embarked in them. Other Flyers only do so if they are a Dedicated Transport.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in

reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or

Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No.

 

Last page of the Rulebook FAQ.

[dswanick]

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in

reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or

Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No.

 

Last page of the Rulebook FAQ.

Good catch. Cool. :lol:

[Techmarine Harkus]

Thank you all for your quick replies.

 

I had not seen that part of the recent FAQ (I skimmed it, as I don't play regularly enough to try to commit it all to memory) but I still have one concern which is specifically regarding independent characters and how they fit in all this.

 

On the one hand:

 

"A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these [determining half] purposes"

 

And on the other (the very next line):

 

""Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not."

 

Both from p124 of the Rule Book.

 

How do these two sentences interplay with one another?

 

The way I'm reading it is that the IC "counts as a single unit regardless" and also that the dedicated transport in question is not his, so the exemption from being counted does not extend to him. By counting as a separate unit, (as stated) it certainly does not seem to extend to him.

 

Obviously the IC is not prohibited from joining the drop pod, as it later states you must specify which unit (if any) the character has joined, and that any transports will arrive with the unit (whether they are allowed in the vehicle or not depends on capacity only).

[dswanick]

Well, with the above mentioned FAQ to clarify things, A unit and an attached IC in either a Deep Striking or Flyer transport (Dedicated or not) won't count towards the 50% limit.

 

So you could have 6 Tactical squads in Droppods, 3 Devastator squads in Droppods, 1 HQ attached to a Terminator squad in a Storm Eagle, and still use the 50% (round up) to place 1 Scout squad in Reserves.

[Ming]

I think I've described this before....

 

In terms of game / story line, go with half of you units deployed (the story line being they are from the first wave of pods that hit before the battle, the pods are off-table behind your battle line), and your podded units are second wave units. (If the 6th ed rules allow the first wave to have dedicated pods and the unit deploys but the empty pod stays in reserves, then you got something else going on tomake your second wave of full pods all arrive turn 1).

 

In all the UM fluff where drop pods are deployed, typically dreads and dev squads hit the ground first to create overwatching positions, and the second wave pods crash into the enemy line. The second wave focuses on brutal short-range firepower and flamers and CCWs.

 

Third wave units are landspeeders and assault marines.

 

(This is easy to replicate with Space Wolves)

 

Sometimes the first wave includes scouts. (Scouts are good as first wave units because a small unit can keep hidden to make sure you get through turn 1...)

 

Now if you were Blood Angels, you'd just have assault troops to start, deep striking assault troops as the second wave, and further support from Storm Ravens carrying in the dreads and death compnay or leaders/honor guard.

 

If Forgeworld rules were useable, the dreads would have the expensive pods that allow them to drop in and assault from.

 

Overall, the OP topic has always had my attention - and gets to the core of most Space Marine battle story lore - that of the lightning strike assault in front of or into the enemy.

[Techmarine Harkus]

Well, with the above mentioned FAQ to clarify things, A unit and an attached IC in either a Deep Striking or Flyer transport (Dedicated or not) won't count towards the 50% limit.

 

Fair enough I guess. The only thing that could ruin that would be if the valkyrie was also a dedicated transport. I'm no IG player, so I have no idea actually. If it is, then it actually sounds like the FAQ could well be answering a question that is not exactly the same as the one being asked. I'll admit I'm being fairly cynical here suggesting that whoever answered the question didn't necessarily take the time to fully appreciate what is being asked. A few times I've read FAQ answers and thought 'um, not sure thats what the question was asking about.'

 

If the Valk is a fast attack choice or whatever, then I'd be perfectly happy to accept that any and all passengers in mandatory reserves are ignored for calculating half.

[dswanick]

If the Valk is a fast attack choice or whatever, then I'd be perfectly happy to accept that any and all passengers in mandatory reserves are ignored for calculating half.

A Valk squadron is an IG FA chocie. I don't know of any way to get it as a Dedicated Transport.

 

My read is that when GW said "any unit which must start in Reserve" they must have been thinking "if a unit is embarked in a transport that must start in reserve, then that unit must also start in reserve".

[maturin]

A valk is only a dedicated transport in an IA Elysian army list. They used to be available for Inquisitors & retinue as well, but I'm not sure if that's legal in 6th.

[Talnox]

So according to my reading the findings here I can have:

 

Librarian + term + dread in a stormraven

all my squads in drop pods

and one squadron of landspeeders as my 1(50% rounded up) all in reserve?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Yep.

[dswanick]

So according to my reading the findings here I can have:

 

Librarian + term + dread in a stormraven

all my squads in drop pods

and one squadron of landspeeders as my 1(50% rounded up) all in reserve?

Looks good to go.

[Techmarine Harkus]

Awesome.

 

Thanks for the help working this one out guys.