Legion Structure

[Phalanx Warder]

Hello brothers,

 

I plan on starting a crusade/heresy era army, but I haven't seen nor do I plan on buying the first HH book. i am holding out for the book contain Dorns fists. I plan on building (over time) a force that can be either heresy or crusade. I want to start collecting now.

 

Since my venture into the 40k/30k universe I have read conflicting info on the force organisation of the legions, maybe it varies from legion to legion. In the dark angles books one of he fallen referred to himself as a chapter master, I have also read things like 144th grand company.i was just looking over at forgeworld and they are selling legion tac squads in groups of 30!

 

The Codex armys fight as a company (100 battle brothers) what will the equivalent of the legions look like if there is such a thing?what support belongs to the heresy "companys" (TDA, transport, tanks, fire support,assault assets)

 

thanks

 

Battle8rother.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Imperial Fists are divided into companies of 1000 led by captains, divided into two battalions of 500 led by Marshals, each of 5 centuries of 100 led by Castellans.

 

Or something like that. It's described in Crimson Fist and Betrayal.

[Phalanx Warder]

The Imperial Fists are divided into companies of 1000 led by captains, divided into two battalions of 500 led by Marshals, each of 5 centuries of 100 led by Castellans.

 

Or something like that. It's described in Crimson Fist and Betrayal.

 

Marshal2 Crusaders,

thanks for the quick response! very interesting this leaves much to ponder!

[Nova_Dew]

you need the first book as that contains the base list, the later books will just make additions to the list and not repeat it. i could copy out the legion organization chart from the book but im sure some one has done something naughty and attacked it with a camera

[Marshal Rohr]

Basically when selecting your army the way FW has set it up is that it isn't unusual for units from other maniples, cohorts, centuries to mix together on the table. With a Codex army it would be weird for the fifth and third company to integrate, but not so much in the legions since each company is already pretty much a chapter.

[alex567]

A think to note is that each legion varies differently, also each sub division of each legion varies differently, that is why post heresy chapters can be so diverese (take imperial fists and black templars), to be honest there's nothing stopping you building an army any way you want to, each master of a grand company leads his company differently to another and each commander under the command of this figure also plays by different rules, by this concept you can literally build a force based around any philosiphy or concept you want.

 

It's completely understandable to have an imperial fist commander who favours close combat over shooting, one who favoures land raiders over storm eagles, even one who favoures mass infantry over tactical acumen. This means that by building a competative legion list your playing your army the wrong way, your paying so much money to play an army you cannot use in tournaments just to try to beat your oponent, you'd be better off going for a 40k approved list. This basically means that a legion list follows the rule of cool, you build it around all the cool things you like, if you like lots of marines, you can do it, if you like heavy armour, you can do it, the list is designed to be for 2000pts games, this is because at this points cost you can really start to field awesome units.

 

If you plan on sticking to a scheme, generally as marshel2 described is a legion formation, with grand company sizes varying massively, for instance death guard had 7 grand companies but 10 grand companies worth of men in them, the ultramarines had over 100,000 marines, but were considered one of the largest legions.

 

with regards to support, generally each grand company had access to massive amounts of equipment, as this was before the heresy, there was a lot more equipment available, so it is perfectly viable to have any combination of anything, it follows fluff to field 9 land raiders in 3000pts.

 

And with regards to your initial statement, I heard that apparently betrayal will form the basis for the heresy books so you will need this one to be able to use the others. But don't take my word for it this is just a rumour! ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Lexicanum has the exact break down if you search Legion Organization. The chart shows what level of maneuver unit has access to what equipment and so on. It goes a long way in answering a lot of questions about the characters from the novels. Chapters/Grand Companies etc have access to armored formations and capital ships.

[No Foes Remain]

Lexicanum has the exact break down if you search Legion Organization. The chart shows what level of maneuver unit has access to what equipment and so on. It goes a long way in answering a lot of questions about the characters from the novels. Chapters/Grand Companies etc have access to armored formations and capital ships.

You mean this?

[Olis]

Lexicanum has the exact break down if you search Legion Organization. The chart shows what level of maneuver unit has access to what equipment and so on. It goes a long way in answering a lot of questions about the characters from the novels. Chapters/Grand Companies etc have access to armored formations and capital ships.

You mean this?

Here's the relevant picture of that page:

(Apologies for any thunder stealing. :P )

[No Foes Remain]

(Apologies for any thunder stealing. :P )

 

A picture paints a thousand words, I should have thought about doing that myself.

[Phalanx Warder]

Awesome!

 

Thanks for all the input, this helps with a lot with what I was planning.

 

So here are my thoughts. If you have been over to the hall of honor you will see my thread "pre excommunicate Soul Drinkers", so the plan is to build my force around there style of combat. Here is what the lexicanum states "Boarding and droppod actions; assault-oriented; close range firefights". I was thinking about a planetary assault force, they will be a mobile force but I have no plans for any super heavy tanks, if a thunder hawk cant move it then its a no go. I have not decided on a drop pod force yet but this seems most viable way to stay fluffy and competitive.

 

Its also handy to know about needing the first book. :P

[SillyDreadnought]

The Legion's structure was rarely completely fixed as it is with modern Chapters. For example, the Sons of Horus were recorded to have Companies in strength as small as 30 astartes all the way up to 1000. How big you want your company to be, and indeed it's entire makeup and specialty, it's entirely up to you. Want a Jetbike heavy Iron Warriors force? Entirely feasible. Tank heavy Death Guard? Jump pack assault company of Alpha Legion? The fluff limitations are simply non exsistant because each legion, despite it's specialties, was expected to maintain and fight with every weapon at it's disposal.

 

Your only limitations are your budget and creative whims.

[alex567]

The Legion's structure was rarely completely fixed as it is with modern Chapters. For example, the Sons of Horus were recorded to have Companies in strength as small as 30 astartes all the way up to 1000. How big you want your company to be, and indeed it's entire makeup and specialty, it's entirely up to you. Want a Jetbike heavy Iron Warriors force? Entirely feasible. Tank heavy Death Guard? Jump pack assault company of Alpha Legion? The fluff limitations are simply non exsistant because each legion, despite it's specialties, was expected to maintain and fight with every weapon at it's disposal.

 

Your only limitations are your budget and creative whims.

 

This.

[Nova_Dew]

From what i can make out after a few moments of do they even higher proof readers and editors! A Legion that abides by the decreed structure would be made up as follows:

 

X Chapters made up of 2 Battalions each

 

Each Battalion made up of 5 Companies each, with Companies as follows:

 

1st Company made up of 10-20 5-10 man Veteran Squads

2nd-4th Company each were made up of 4-8 Basic Squads (10-20 man Legion Tactical/Legion Assault) plus 2-4 5-10 man Support Squad

5th Company made up of 10-20 5-10 man Support Squads

 

----------------------------------------------------------------//-------------------------------------------

 

*If* we take the 1st company as the Elites choices you get it made up of Veteran Tactical Squads, TDA Squads and Destroyer Squads

 

2nd-4th Companies made up of Legion Tactical, Assault and/or Breacher squads backed up with the units with the Support Squad rule and possibly the other squads not so far mentioned

 

5th company would then be made up entirely of the Support and other squads

[Onisuzume]

Ugh... the notions of having "chapters" pre-heresy abhors me when applied to any legion other than ultrasmurfs.

Older fluff has it that the legions were split into chapters only after the HH, not before, even if they still operated as a legion.

[Demus Ragnok]

Ugh... the notions of having "chapters" pre-heresy abhors me when applied to any legion other than ultrasmurfs.

Older fluff has it that the legions were split into chapters only after the HH, not before, even if they still operated as a legion.

 

 

Why?

 

"Chapter" is just a term used to designate a unit of legion organization. Just like squad,company, battalion,or whatever else.

[Onisuzume]

Ugh... the notions of having "chapters" pre-heresy abhors me when applied to any legion other than ultrasmurfs.

Older fluff has it that the legions were split into chapters only after the HH, not before, even if they still operated as a legion.

 

 

Why?

 

"Chapter" is just a term used to designate a unit of legion organization. Just like squad,company, battalion,or whatever else.

It still strikes a wrong note with me.

I'm fine with the ultrasmurfs doing it.

It feels too much like anachronism to me if applied to other legions.

[Arkangilos]

Ugh... the notions of having "chapters" pre-heresy abhors me when applied to any legion other than ultrasmurfs.

Older fluff has it that the legions were split into chapters only after the HH, not before, even if they still operated as a legion.

 

 

Why?

 

"Chapter" is just a term used to designate a unit of legion organization. Just like squad,company, battalion,or whatever else.

It still strikes a wrong note with me.

I'm fine with the ultrasmurfs doing it.

It feels too much like anachronism to me if applied to other legions.

 

 

If you look at the picture, it explains that they aren't always called "chapters." Some Legions called them Great Companies, some called them other things.

 

 

However, for as long as I can remember, I always remember there being Chapters in more than just the Ultramarines. I also remember them in the Blood Angels (Blood Quest explains how Sanguinius gave a sword to the chapter master Belarius).

 

 

I honestly don't see what the problem is.

 

+Edit+

 

Also, this is no way contradicts older fluff. In the older fluff, when the legions were broken down into chapters, it just abolished every command level above the chapter.

[Felix Antipodes]

The older fluff stated that the Legions were broken down to 1000 members which coincided with the unit size known as a Chapter. It bugs me as well that that has now become a rubbery number large enough to encompass two battalions. Just a personal bugbear.

[Legatus]

In 1st Edition, the original Legion were not yet called "Legions", and were instead also called "Chapters", with the note that after the "Horus Rebellion" the Chapters were drastically reduced in size. This was slightly changed in 2nd Edition, where the original, larger formations were now called "Legions", and the new 1000 man formations created during the Second Founding were said to be based on the previously known formation of a Chapter. In subsequent descriptions of various Legions, some were described as using Chapters, some were described as using Great Companies or other types of formation.

[Arkangilos]

In 1st Edition, the original Legion were not yet called "Legions", and were instead also called "Chapters", with the note that after the "Horus Rebellion" the Chapters were drastically reduced in size. This was slightly changed in 2nd Edition, where the original, larger formations were now called "Legions", and the new 1000 man formations created during the Second Founding were said to be based on the previously known formation of a Chapter. In subsequent descriptions of various Legions, some were described as using Chapters, some were described as using Great Companies or other types of formation.

 

Much like how it is said now.

[Legatus]

Unfortunately, the Ultramarines apparently are said to have used 10,000 strong Chapters. So the 1,000 formation is not exactly based on that any longer.