Reclusiarch vs. Lemartes

[terminatorAM]

Lately I have been increasing Flesh Tearers army from 1000pnts to 1500 and 2000pnt lists. I am keeping my JP DC and just increasing their number and special equipment in the higher level lists, but I also wanted to add a chaplain of some kind to boost their power, but haven't seen a lot of other people doing the same. I know that some people are happy running Death Company without a chaplain, but I wanted to hear from those that do use one who is the best.

 

 

So here's how I (and others here) see these two compared (note that I'm only looking at these guys with jump packs in mind):

 

Reclusiarch

- 5 pnts more

- better BS

- extra W and A built-in

- Warlord possibility (can give up VP if Death Company unit is used too aggressively)

- fills mandatory HQ slot

- access to power fist

- able to leave DC unit (for multi-charge purposes)

- unit using transport (no jump pack)

 

Lemartes

- initiative 6!!!

-- better chance to sweeping advance

- master-crafted power maul

- feel no pain

- furious charge (other chaplains don't get these unless near a priest)

- rerolls to wound on charge

- Fury unbound: higher S and A if wounded

 

No Chaplain

- more pnts (150-155pnts) means:

- 10 extra power axes

- 4 more DC (w/ JP)

- 7 more DC (no JP)

 

 

Both the wounded and unwounded versions of Lemmy seem better to me (and for cheaper too) and the biggest thing he's is lacking over the Reclusiarch is the extra wound. So am I missing something or is there a reason that anyone would favor the Reclusiarch?

 

Edit: I'll be adding to this list as ideas come in and maybe we can eventually make a community ruling on what option is best for common lists builds

[toaae]

So am I missing something or is there a reason that anyone would favor the Reclusiarch?

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of two:

 

1. You are running the DC in a transport that isn't a Raven (for whatever reason), so Lemartes can't roll with them.
   
2. You need an HQ, which the Reclusiarch is.
   

 

Both of which are iffy enough reasons. Mostly, it's either you have Lemartes, or the DC just don't have a Chaplain (to keep points down)

[Drunken Angel]

The ability to take a power fist, which ignores armour is in the reclusiarchs favour. You get a lot of mileage out of fists against PA troops the maul is only so-so. I have lost Lemartes due to my opponent making all those 3+ saves and smacking Lemartes back he is not a sure thing to finish a challenge in one round unless wounded of course and then he hits at S8. Still the same problem though I6 and armour saves or I1 from the reclusiarch and ID with no armour saves. Sweeping advance is in Lemartes I6 favour don't overlook that though. The maul is better against everything except PA troops with 3+ saves.

[Sinful eyes]

The ability to take a power fist, which ignores armour is in the reclusiarchs favour.

This. 15 points for a power fist on the reclusiarch is a good deal now that he can't be targeted outside of challenges. And the part about saving points through an HQ. If you take Lemartes you will be taking a Libby (I assume). If you take the Reclusiarch you save points, which you can spend on more dudes.

[Morollan]

The maul is better against everything except PA troops with 3+ saves.

 

As they make up well over 50% of the armies you are likely to face, do you think a chaplain, of any kind, is worthwhile? There was a thread a while back which covered the mathhammer and basically said that for the points spent on a chaplain of any ilk you are always better off spending those points on power axes for your DC. And that was before the 6e nerf to Crozius'.

[DominicJ]

Rec / lemmy

 

i must take a hq, therefore, the rec wins.

 

 

Chaplain vs axes

i think this is the only place me and cag disagree strongly.

 

Imho

Axes are better until you factor in transport space and casualties.

 

Iirc

9dc and a rec with three fists can take 60% losses and keep 70% of their lethality

[Deschenus Maximus]

Reclusiarch, hand down.

-You NEED an HQ anyways.

-Lemmy is a lot less scary to Marines than he used to be.

-The reclu, as mentionned, has access to a nice cheap fist.

[First0f0ne]

No Chaplin, More power axes (50%).

 

Run 6-10DC with 3-5 power axes and you are golden. The level of kill vs. the points invested is very high in a unit like this.

 

 

But as far as chaplins go, the HQ unit is better for a few very minor reasons.

 

two were mentioned above.

 

1.You are running the DC in a transport that isn't a Raven (for whatever reason), so Lemartes can't roll with them.

2.You need an HQ, which the Reclusiarch is.

 

3. you want to charge 2 units without losing out on Rage because of multi assault. Lemartes can not leave the unit.

4. wargear: if you for some reason want to give a power fist your chappy you can.

 

Those 4 reasons are poor ones but they are 4 in favor of the HQ chappy and not LeMartes, that said LeMartes is fun to play with.

[terminatorAM]

The maul is better against everything except PA troops with 3+ saves.

 

As they make up well over 50% of the armies you are likely to face, do you think a chaplain, of any kind, is worthwhile? There was a thread a while back which covered the mathhammer and basically said that for the points spent on a chaplain of any ilk you are always better off spending those points on power axes for your DC. And that was before the 6e nerf to Crozius'.

 

I think I remember reading that thread at one point. If memory serves, it was just about DC on foot as jump packs almost make these guys a completely different unit as far as how they're handled. Good point to make nonetheless.

 

I'm going t edit my original list and add a 3rd category for No Chaplain as well. I'm loving the insights so far though so keep it up

[Xenith]

The chappy ups the efficiency of the DC, so if you want a smaller unit with high output, but that can weather less return attacks, get the chappy (scalpel). If you can get a larger unit into combat, and want a more sledgehammer approach, go for more bodies.

 

As has been said before, if you don't particularly want a libby HQ choice, the Reclusiarch is a good stand in, as he boosts the DC, and also strikes at higher I.

[Crynn]

I disagree with all the options presented here. I frequently use Death Company in my lists and unfortunately a chaplain never makes the cut. His weapon is quite bad and he is expensive. For the same cost I always take a jump pack librarian with divination. You get re-roll hits on all attacks including all those bolter shots you fire when not in combat. This also means you get to re-roll hits when you are charged and I think that alone is better than re-roll wounds on the charge. The lib has a far better weapon, provides psychic defence and I think provides the unit with better buffs. Unfortunately I think chaplains are a reasonably average choice in our dex.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[DominicJ]

You get re-roll hits on all attacks including all those bolter shots you fire when not in combat.

 

You *might* get that.

Quite a few lists have a good shot at knocking out your powers, and those that dont, can instead focus on killing your librarian, who dies easy, unless you bubble, which hammers effectiveness

 

His weapon is quite bad and he is expensive.

Maces are better than swords against everything except 3+ saves.

Including 2+ saves and 4+ invulnerables.

[Demoulius]

maces, whilst not... have meant Chaplains (of ALL colours) are a great deal less scary then they used to be :P

 

Hitting at +2S and AP4 isent bad, dont get me wrong here but blood angels have a fairly good chance of getting furious charge so hitting at S5 with powerswords or S6 with poweraxes isent all that hard most of the times... If you are taking a chaplain for the rerolls id keep him as cheap as possible. Go for the elite version in that case..

 

I find myself looking back to the captain as HQ option more and more... Im still in the process of devising a proper biker captain, but thats something else entirely :)

 

Librarians are also very nice for their versatility and utility :( fact that they are the cheapest hq option isent bad either :lol:

 

so it depends what you want your hq to do.... i guess

[Crynn]

You get re-roll hits on all attacks including all those bolter shots you fire when not in combat.

 

You *might* get that.

Quite a few lists have a good shot at knocking out your powers, and those that dont, can instead focus on killing your librarian, who dies easy, unless you bubble, which hammers effectiveness

 

His weapon is quite bad and he is expensive.

Maces are better than swords against everything except 3+ saves.

Including 2+ saves and 4+ invulnerables.

 

Just like quite a few lists have a good chance at charging you and thus you don't get any re-rolls to hits or wounds. I wonder what is more common, a unit that will be able to charge the DC and thus negate any re-rolls a chaplain would give them (a librarians re-rolls still would work) or the only 3 lists that in any way can stop you from casting being eldar tyranids and spacewolves. I think I know which one is mroe likely especially seeing those wonces who can nulify the power still only do so 50% of the time.

 

 

3+ saves being the msot common save in an army considering more than 50% of players play some kind of marines. A force weapon is also better against almsot anything with multiple wounds so it is important to take that into account, it isn't simply a +2 str for a worse AP shift.

 

Also the lib gives psychic defence, the lib is far more versitile and able to use different powers against different armies not to mention buff other units with things like re-roll hits when the DC aren't in combat, the chaplain jsut stands there doing nothing unless in combat.

 

It isn't really a debate so much as the librarian is a far superior choice and that is why he pops up in many armies yet the chaplain sees next to no use.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[terminatorAM]

I agree that the libby shows up in more lists in general, but not all those lists also include death company. I myself will use a libby in 1000pnt lists where you need to save as many points a s possible, but some form of chaplain is more appealing to me in higher point games to better support the death company.

 

Here's what I'm planning so far (feel free to find the weaknesses in my strategy as I haven't played many 6th ed games yet)

 

1000pnts: Librarian for cheap flexibility

 

15000pnts: Reclusiarch to add to the effectiveness of the DC and take up HQ slot

+ Furioso Librarian to provide psychic defence and shield to all near by jump pack units (including DC) all on one tough unit

 

2000pnts: Librarian for general force multiplication

Lemartes to run with 7 man DC as a hammer unit

Furioso Librarian for the above reasons

 

The 2000pnts list gives the DC as much force multiplication as I can think of w/o using allies and also supports the rest of assault marines that will be in the list

[Crynn]

The thing is a lib buffs a dc unit better than a chaplain does as I already explained. Re'roll to wound isn't that great only on te charge when you'll wound most marines in 3's anyway. Having rerolls to hit when you are counter assaulted and on all your range weapons is far better. The lib also generates a second power on top of this and has a force weapon.

 

Regards

Crynn

[DominicJ]

Your meta may vary

 

My reclusiarch almost never fights marines.

He fights hqs in terminator armour, or with invulnerable saves.

 

I have used and continue to use all three hqs.

I have good results with all.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I rarely find myself wishing that my DC were more powerful. The few occasions I've attached a Chaplain or Reclusiarch to them, they've ended up way overkilling units and being left high and dry in the enemy's shooting phase.

[Xenith]

I rarely find myself wishing that my DC were more powerful.

Agree, the only things I mine have trouble dealing with are termies. More numbers, or power axes to give some mutually assured destruction would work better.

[SamaNagol]

Librarian with Axe GGs

[DominicJ]

Charging DC with reclusiarch rerolls nets .65 terminator kills per DC.

 

15DC with reclusiarch cost 430pts, and kill 444pts of Hammernators.

 

Thats at I4, ie before hammers or fists strike back.

 

Obviously thats an extreme, but an interesting one.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Awesome. My DC squad costs 220pts and does everything that yours does except kill Hammernators and they don't hugely overkill other units and get shot to [Expletive Deleted] in the opponent's next turn.

 

Shoot the fighty stuff, fight the shooty stuff.

[SamaNagol]

Anymore than 8 DC is just unnecessary at any points level tbh.

 

They aren't there to be a hammer unit, they are there to kill troops and be an annoyance to plans.

[DominicJ]

My DC exist to die though.....

 

There job is to charge up the middle, smash something big, and get blown apart in a hail of gunfire.

The volume of fire soaked up by a raider is intense, and then out pop the dc.

 

A distraction doesnt have to be cheap, so much as cost effective...

[SamaNagol]

So you are looking at nearly 700pts just to die?