Imperial Fists Crusade Era Tactics?

[Emperor's Furor]

Now we know the Imperial Fists were masters of siege defence which is by definition defensive, so it got me wondering during the crusade they must of been offensive, especially as they were held with esteem by many including other legions, but what tactics do you think they used when going on the offense? Do you think they Death Guard like and marched up to the battle line with breacher shields or were they more like the more flexible legions?

[daveNYC]

Identify potential strongpoints behind enemy lines, drop pod on those targets and fortify them, then hold off counter-attacks as the enemy weakens either their front lines or their reserves while attempting to dislodge the IF forces?

 

It's a pretty stupid battle plan, but it does incorporate the siege defense thing at least.

[Darog]

They are primarily specialists in Siege Warfare like Iron warroirs, and in attack. Like any legions. Simply the best of all, they showed themselves on the defense, but that does not mean that they would only deal with the defense.

[Emperor's Furor]

Exactly, that's why I was wondering what sort of tactics they used while on the offense? The only story I've read where they are being offensive is the Iron Cage, but that's not indicative of their strategies and formations, which is why I was wondering, if they weren't defending, then how do they attack?

[Lachdannan]

In the Heresy Era, I don't think it has been revealed yet how they conducted themselves on the offense. Some vague background from the Index Astartes article revelas that they were often left in reserve in order for weak points to be pinned down and identified and then they were the Fist that crushed it mercilessly. That to my mind means heavy tanks, terminators, siege shields and the like for heavy fighting. Its what I've modeled my force to be like.

[malika666]

They are primarily specialists in Siege Warfare like Iron warroirs, and in attack. Like any legions. Simply the best of all, they showed themselves on the defense, but that does not mean that they would only deal with the defense.

 

I remember that the Imperial Fists were specialized in building fortifications and the Iron Warriors were sent in to crush the forts and such.

 

But then it seems so strange to me...why were the Iron Warriors used as a garrison Legion then? Wouldn't the Imperial Fists have been more suitable for this role?

[Emperor's Furor]

Iron Warriors liked constructing forts and such, Imperial Fists could also make good forts, but Dorn was one of the "elder" primarchs and so he probably got a by on garrison duty.

[Arachnid99]

But then it seems so strange to me...why were the Iron Warriors used as a garrison Legion then? Wouldn't the Imperial Fists have been more suitable for this role?

 

It is a bit of a disconnect, however;

 

a.) There is no evidence that the Fists didn't have a lot of men tied down as garrisons, they just didn't kick up a fuss about it

 

b.) The Fists used to have lots of men garrisoning planets but they were pulled out when Dorn was appointed the Emperors Praetorian and handed over to the Iron Warriors.

 

c.) The Iron Warriors who specialised in attacking fortresses got lumped with more garrison duty than the Imperial Fists who specialised in defending fortresses, which would be stupid.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Probably a combination of Black Templar choppiness with Crimson Fist levelheadedness (that is a word?!) and Imperial Fist defensiveness. Kind of sounds like a Codex force when I put it like that though :\

[Greyshift]

What about a typical space marine surgical strike by drop pod and thunderhawk then holding a defensible position until reinforcements arrive - kinda like the paratroopers at Arnhem holding out for the armour

[Emperor's Furor]

Personally I see them more of a rock and a hard place like legion, similar to the Iron Hands and Death Guard, I made a 2k list to they may reflect this.

 

HQ

 

Praetor - Paragon blade / Boarding shield - 130

 

Legion Champion - Master Crafted Charnabal Sabre / Combat shield / Artificer armour - 110

 

Seige Breaker - 95

 

 

Elite

 

Cataphractii Terminator Squad (x10) - Power fist (x10) / Plasma blaster (x2) - 405

 

Techmarine - Augury Scanner - 45

 

Apothecary - 45

Apothecary - 45

 

 

Troops

 

Breacher Squad (10) - Melta gun (x2) / Nunio-vox / Legion Vexilla - 280

 

Breacher Squad (10) - Flamer (x2) / Nunio-vox / Legion Vexilla / Combi-flamer - 280

 

 

Heavy Support

 

Heavy Support Squad (10) - Autocannon (x10) - 285

 

Basilisk Artillery Squadron (2) - 280

 

Total - 2000

[Legatus]

The Imperial Fists were NOT specialists in siege warfare. It just so happened that their stupporn attitude and their relative inflexibility in terms of changing battle situations meant that they were very well suited to either assault or defend static positions. It is not that they consciously focused on sieges.

 

From the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article:

"Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defenses. Throughout the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists would be held in reserve waiting while other Legions pinned the enemy in position and identified the keystone of their defence. Inevitably, that position would then be shattered by the Fists. They were equally valuable when resolutely blocking, and often totally defeated enemy breakthroughs. The Legion had a willingness to fight until they won which few opponents could match. Rogal Dorn led from the front, a tireless warrior who, having set the strategy for a battle, would unerringly place himself in the most critical engagements.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach - attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With the adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. (...)

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defense, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Imperial Fists)

So, inflexible formations and unimaginative commanders, but excellent planning, coupled with their unshakeable determination, meant that they were originally very well suited to assault or defend static positions. Only with the adoption of the Codex doctrines did they become a lot more flexible, and are now routinely engaging opponents in open battle as well. They retain their stubborn attitude, though. They were not just "defenders" during the Great Crusade, and were usually deployed as an offensive force, tearing down the ehaviest of enemy defenses. (Often after other Legions had done the preliminary work.) They were not "all sieges, all the time" like the Iron Warriors, who more consciously specialised in that particular style of warfare. It was just that the Imperial Fists were naturally predisposed to those kinds of engagements due to their inherent traits.

[Emperor's Furor]

Cool I like that, it's kind of like the Sons of Horus with their spear tip, except not deployed as quick or deep into the enemy, do you think the list I drafted is around the right area?

[Marshal Rohr]

In imaginative and inflexible is relative. Some might consider total adherence to a 10,000 year old miltary doctrine as inflexible. :rolleyes:

 

 

Seriously though, Legs is right that the whole defensive outlook on what the VII did during the Heresy is a bit narrow for what the HH artbooks and series has added. Now the VII has been described as fighting as the Emperor's personal Legion (a change from that being the Dark Angels) and one of the most successful on par with the Ultras, DAs, and Luna Wolves (something never heard before).

 

My personal view is that they fought like Patton, Frederick's grenadiers, and Pompeii's cavalry.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'd love to read a book from there point of view prior to the heresy, every other legion seems to of had a glimpse at how they worked during the crusade era.

[Legatus]

The Imperial Fists Legion might at times have employed very "defensive" forces. But for a "generic" Imperial Fists force, I would probably more see them as a very general, non-specialised formation. They had excellent planning, and were probably able to employ the entire breadth of tactical units. It was just that their companies were not set up for different purposes, and that they rarely reorganized squads or formations to suit different situations. They would probably also attempt to stick to the original battle plan even if the conditions drastically changed. So I would see them as approaching all kinds of battles with a "standard" force, not specifically reorganizing it or outfitting it for every new situation, but expertly using each given "regular" unit to its most effective (provided that the initial conditions do not change too much).

 

They probably would outfit their units to some degree for different mission types (open engagements, boarding actions, assaulting a fortress, etc.), so the army posted above could probably reasonably work. But they would probably adapt their forces much less than other Legions would have. Some Legions had specialist companies (like the Night Lords' Raptor companies) or adapted their forces more routinely to different circumstances (like Alpha Legion, or even the Ultramarines).

[Arachnid99]

I'd love to read a book from there point of view prior to the heresy, every other legion seems to of had a glimpse at how they worked during the crusade era.

 

We'll we've seen a bit of them at the Battle of Phall and during Mechanicum but I suspect we'll have to wait until Terra before they really get to shine. That's the problem with having almost all the Imperial Fists on Terra fortifying the Imperial Palace, on the plus side its going to save the Loyalists bacon and keep the Emperor alive until the approach of Space Wolf and Ultramarine reinforcements forces Horus to get desperate; on the downside they really don't have a big role to play in until then.

[Marshal Rohr]

For a Heresy Era army both the legion organization chart and the legion army list cover justifying pretty much ANY type of army.

 

 

In a world where I still paid for this stuff, I'd build an army based off the 1st Company. So Terminators, veteran squads, and specialists.

 

 

I plan on building a single 25 man 'maniple' (my version of a VII legion platoon) based off a tactical squad of 20 and a tactical support squad of 5.

[Emperor's Furor]

I altered the list after feed back, it's now more of a dedicated central mobile force that can lay siege to things or break through weak points.

 

HQ

 

Legion Champion - Master Crafted Charnabal Sabre / Combat shield / Artificer armour - 110

 

Seige Breaker - 95

 

 

Elite

 

Techmarine - 45

 

Apothecary - 45

 

 

Troops

 

Breacher Squad (20) - Power fist / Melta gun (x4) / Nunio-vox / Legion Vexilla - 425

 

Tactical Squad (10) - Rhino - Extra armour 195

 

Tactical Squad (10) - Rhino - Extra armour 195

 

 

Heavy Support

Spartan Assault Tank - Flare shield / auxiliary drive - 325

 

Heavy Support Squad (10) - Autocannon (x10) - 285

 

Basilisk Artillery Squadron (2) - 280

 

Total - 2000

[Count the7]

Silly Question but, Does any one know what colour trim does the IF have on their armour pre Codex? I all ways thought it was red untill some one pointed out they had Codex Company couloured trim after the Heresy. thought this might be a place to slip this question in.

[Count the7]

Silly Question but, Does any one know what colour trim does the IF have on their armour pre Codex? I all ways thought it was red untill some one pointed out they had Codex Company couloured trim after the Heresy. thought this might be a place to slip this question in.

[Marshal Rohr]

Imperial Fists have gold armor with black trim.

[Count the7]

Thanks Dude, I hope FW does some IF Breacher Squads in MK III

[Haranin]

They do- its two kits B)

[Count the7]

The arms which come with the boarding Shields need a lot of cutting up, drilling and brass wire to fit withe the MK III Vambraces, then you are left with all of the spear MK VII heads and stuff. would be nice if they at leased did a MK III kit with bording Shields to reprisent the Hardened Armour.