Army Choice Annoyance

[Thorian]

Hi i recently got back to 40k as a player due to moving to a new area, im collecting 2 forces a Chaos Marine army and an Orders of the Inqusition army GK/SOB alliance but was a little dismayed to get insulted by my new local group.

 

The basic story is that there is 2 local sellers of GW, yesterday i purchased 2 boxes of GK terminators, one from each shop, what annoyed me was that in both cases i got comments from grown men like myself, the first about them being an army for people who only want to cheat and have an easy game, the second comment being dirty Grey Knights, am i the only one to be a little annoyed by stuff like that, when let's be honest it is a game for fun where we all choose our own favourite toy soldiers to paint/convert/play with.

 

Sorry if this feels like a whine thread just had to get it out as it seriously has put a dampener on me getting so heavily back in to gaming in my new area, and made me consider just playing an old friend who will be visiting me semi-regular.

 

Anybody else who love's the fluff/models of GK or the Inquisition which is my true love in the fluff but consider not playing so much or even doing a different army due to a situation like that?

[dswanick]

Hi i recently got back to 40k as a player due to moving to a new area, im collecting 2 forces a Chaos Marine army and an Orders of the Inqusition army GK/SOB alliance but was a little dismayed to get insulted by my new local group.

 

The basic story is that there is 2 local sellers of GW, yesterday i purchased 2 boxes of GK terminators, one from each shop, what annoyed me was that in both cases i got comments from grown men like myself, the first about them being an army for people who only want to cheat and have an easy game, the second comment being dirty Grey Knights, am i the only one to be a little annoyed by stuff like that, when let's be honest it is a game for fun where we all choose our own favourite toy soldiers to paint/convert/play with.

 

Sorry if this feels like a whine thread just had to get it out as it seriously has put a dampener on me getting so heavily back in to gaming in my new area, and made me consider just playing an old friend who will be visiting me semi-regular.

 

Anybody else who love's the fluff/models of GK or the Inquisition which is my true love in the fluff but consider not playing so much or even doing a different army due to a situation like that?

You just got run over by the band-wagon.

Grey Knights, currently, is one of the most powerful codexes. It has a lot of strong options and tricks and an over-abundance of hard counters to the majority of popular armies in the game. Free AP3 and cheap +1S firepower everywhere, arguably the best Flyer in an Edition which gave the "Easy" button to Flyers, and crazy wargear which gives even sub-par units auto-wins in some situations has drawn all the Flavor of the Month players to Grey Knights.

Unfortunately, you sound like a life-time Grey Knight player in a situation where no one knows of your loyalty. The rage you're encountering is probably from fellow lifers of the other codexes which have gotten passed over for updates the last few editions and are now woefully outdated and over-matched.

When I inherited my friends Space Wolves several years ago (2006), 5th Ed was in full swing and C:SW was "the" over-powered, FotM codex. Due to other life events this was my only playable army, so I just had to grin and bear it while playing "friendly" games with my new gaming group, avoiding going hog-wild with the most "OP" units (ML Long Fang spam and Thunderwolves), and generally trying to build friendships instead of rivalries. Eventually, the new/shiny codex dragged the FotM players elsewhere and I was left with a group of players who were far more accepting of my force.

The only other thing I can say is "chin up", Matt Ward is rumored to be making the Dark Angels codex to be released shortly. I suppose you could hope that he makes another super-codex and dethrones C:GK... ;)

[Thorian]

Thanks i can sort of understand there view point but i guess i was just dissapointed to find such negative comments towards my army choice in a hobby which i see is often seen as a negative from people outside of the hobby, so i feel a little dissapointed that there is that view towards a new player as i have not played in about 8/9 years when when i last played it was a fun game to play between a group of likeminded people for a laugh.

 

Anyway on to way i can hopefully avoid that, what units are deemed to powerful by the community that i can try and avoid, the main things i love from the GK codex is the GK Terminator's as my view of them is that they all wear that due to there elite status plus my 2 HQ's will be a Ordo Malleus & Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor so i can do the old Daemonhunters & Witch Hunters that i loved.

 

Thanks

[brindley]

i would mainly get mad at GK players that you know are putting broken faqs or units to their advantage. what i mean by this is players using coteaz with henchmen spam for the most part. you cant use the excuse oh i wanted to play a human army, because then they could just play imperial guard or ally with them instead. there are exceptions to this but coteaz based lists really abuse the best units of the codex. what i mean by faqs are how ndks have their broken sword that is an "auto include". if you played with mostly all grey knights and stuff like inqs or assassins i wouldnt have a problem ever. as it is i play against the aforementioned list all the time and beat it half the time!

[dswanick]

Anyway on to way i can hopefully avoid that, what units are deemed to powerful by the community that i can try and avoid, the main things i love from the GK codex is the GK Terminator's as my view of them is that they all wear that due to there elite status plus my 2 HQ's will be a Ordo Malleus & Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor so i can do the old Daemonhunters & Witch Hunters that i loved.

Do a search for the "best" Grey Knights tournament lists - avoid those. Draigo/Paladin deathstar builds and Coteaz henchmen/razorback spams are generally on that list.

Basically, keep your near-decade of Grey Knights fluff in mind and build a list to that and you should be good. Good luck with your group.

[Thorian]

Cheers thanks for the help guys looks like my choice of units will be fine, to be honest i would happily play with the 2 old DH & WH books if that solved the problem, maybe i will mention that the next time im in the store as i really just wanna play for the fun.

[nurglez]

I know your pain. I started up a Draigowing army as I love terminators and low model count armies, purchased my army a few weeks after the codex was released, before all the internet hype over Draigowings.

 

I went to my first ever tournament with them, and out of 22 people there were 3 Draigo wings including me. I won, and most people didn't seem happy about that, even though I didn't include Coteaz, or apothecaries, or a brotherhood banner. I also had 2 shunting DK's (which everyone on the internet declared over costed and advised me to use psyrifle dread's instead).

 

The icing on the cake was when I was in my local GW painting up Draigo, and there was a 12-15 year old kid painting stuff as well. He saw my pallies and rather boldly said "I hate you for playing Draigowing".

 

I've taken my Draigowing to several UK throne of skulls events, and often as soon as I started taking them out of my case my opponent would ask how many dreadnought's I had. As soon as I answered "none, I don't like them" they often gave me a rather puzzled look.

 

At the end of the day, thanks to the internet, there are min maxed lists available to the masses, as well as a lot of stories of these powerful armies killing everyone and kicking sand in your face (current new "over powered army to fear and run and hide from" is daemons with flamers/screamers of tzeentch).

 

I'm a big fan of take what you want and enjoy playing with it, I like to win but I would much rather lose a good game then win a bad one (although at tournament's I do try and play tactically which can result in a boring game if it will help me win, but wins is wins in tournaments).

[spartan249]

i would mainly get mad at GK players that you know are putting broken faqs or units to their advantage. what i mean by this is players using coteaz with henchmen spam for the most part. you cant use the excuse oh i wanted to play a human army, because then they could just play imperial guard or ally with them instead. there are exceptions to this but coteaz based lists really abuse the best units of the codex. what i mean by faqs are how ndks have their broken sword that is an "auto include". if you played with mostly all grey knights and stuff like inqs or assassins i wouldnt have a problem ever. as it is i play against the aforementioned list all the time and beat it half the time!

 

So you demonize people who decide to use their codex for more then just fluff bunny one of everything type builds? You're projecting your expectations of how the game should be played (arbitrary expectations at best, authoritarian at worst) to others, then getting mad that they may not agree with you?

 

The term "broken" signifies a very serious breach of game balance, which I'm pretty sure do not apply in either of the accused units' cases. A very convincing argument can be made that henchmen are very effective at their chosen role, but they are pretty susceptible to destruction from any of a myriad of methods, as are NDKs.

 

This is yet another case of "I can't beat it, therefore it must be broken". I've seen this hashed out again and again in both the fighting game communities and in tabletop communities (notably more virulent in the former then the latter), and not surprisingly, most accusations of broken game design are flat out aggrandizement and extremely biased judgement based on emotion rather then factual analysis. I'm not innocent of making such accusations, and I highly doubt many on this board are either. In this case, both units are great choices with powerful capabilities and exploitable weaknesses that require a modicum of thought to apply correctly.

 

The problem most often lies in the micro rather then the macro in these cases. One's strategic and tactical errors and an opponent's competent use of the unit/character in question can very often skew the perception of said unit's relative power level. A systematic analysis of a unit's capabilities juxtaposed against every other unit in it's POU is often a much more convincing argument of why said unit is too powerful. Subjective ranting is hardly convincing, and only serves as a detriment to the argument you put forth.

[jeffersonian000]

I started playing Grey Knights back in 4th Ed, when they were considered a subpar army at best and required a great amount of skill to win with ... had a blast playing them! Became quite well know in my local area as the "GK player". Come their new Dex, and everybody and their brother were building Draigowings, Hench-lists, Crow-tax Taxi lists, you name it. Then they all switched to Blood Angels, then Dark Eldar, then Necrons. I'm still playing GK.

 

However, while I use to play a Tri-Raider list with minimal model count, since the new Dex I've been fielding a non-vehicle, non-Pally, all-TDA Ghostwing list. And still having a blast! Not considered the best HQ by a long shot. Everyone panning GKT because Pallies and PAGK were better. And yes, I got a lot of dirty looks and complaints about the codex when I would win any games with a "subpar" list. No one seems to remember when I was playing a "subpar" GK list 8-years ago and barely winning, yet people seem to recall all those times someone else beat them silly with a Draigowing-Psifleman list.

 

I still love my Silver Marines (despite Matt Ward's misogynistic fluff), and will still keeping playing my GKT to the best of my ability. Win, lose, drawn, it’s all about having fun. And talking smack. And totally kicking butt with a "subpar" list. And talking some more smack. And having fun.

 

SJ

[Fenric]

I agree that it's mostly just a I don't know how to beat grey knights so they are op. Grey Knights are a strong army but if you look at Dakka these days they loose more often than they win in those battle reports. It seems the game is a bit more balanced in 6ed atleast from what I've seen and felt. On paper Grey Knights look insane but they still die like marines and they cost more so if anything goes wrong it goes very wrong.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

I hear you brother - my friend and I went to a doubles event at our local recently. He brought semi-competitive GK (Draigo and a few Paladins, 1 NDK and a few Strike Squads with non-'Internet Spam' weapons, etc.) and I brought Necrons (at the time I had NO flyers and I always run 10 Lychguards with shields.) every opponent team we won against left the table muttering about 'broken' armies - we came 8th out of 12th- and when I asked why we were playing 'broken' armies they instinctively went to the arguments about character wound allocation nonsense (which was FAQed out of existence) and cheaty flyer spam (again, we fielded NO flyers).

People often just want a reason to blame others for their loss - heaven forbid their sleek tourney list loses a game of toy soldiers based on random dice rolls through any quirk of fate or mistake they made (or, less likely, any flash of genius from my friend and I).

 

The chosen of the Emperor will always be beset by foes within and without brother, it is important then to remember that we are His warriors and their words mean nothing - you play what you want to pkay, be it Mega-Competative Grey Knights, themed Snakebite Orks, eclectic Space Marine/Tau Empire allies chosen for a love of certain models or even a beautifully converted Kroot Mercenary army using a superbly chosen count-as rule set. It's your army and your game. There is nothing else.

 

 

That said, as a servant of Chaos and part time xenos, I look forward to seeing your Grey Knights dead in the earth with nought but the mocking laughter of Dark Gods for company. :)

[Thorian]

Thanks again guys, im glad i started this thread as it make's me realise not everyone in this hobby has lost all sense of reason in the 8/9 years since i last played on a regular basis. :yes:

[dswanick]

Thanks again guys, im glad i started this thread as it make's me realise not everyone in this hobby has lost all sense of reason in the 8/9 years since i last played on a regular basis. :P

Umm, have you kept track of the prices of kits in this hobby? We all checked reason at the door the minute we looked at a $40 Land Raider model kit and thought "I need three of those!", and now they're up to $75. And for some of us, the plasticrack was just a gateway drug for the hard-core Armorcast/Forge World resin addiction. :o

But, you're welcome. :)

[Inquisitor Fox]

That and if people give me too much guff I'll beat em over the head with my pewter filled army case! :)

 

Generally if you throw down things like two-non-named Inquisitor HQs with mismatched retinue, a bunch of models with overpriced units or things that just look cool... talk about how you miss having your Inducted custom made rough riders or something...

 

They'll come around :devil: Play generously, have fun, don't stress who's right or wrong. It's all good. The ones worth keeping around will get it from the get go.

[number6]

I think it is true that all Space Marine variants -- GKs included -- are very "forgiving" armies. They are true all-rounders, capable in both shooting and assaults, competitive armies with an emphasis on either infantry or vehicles (or even a mix of both), and players can fine-tune their Marine army to strengthen any particular aspect of game-play that they choose.

 

And in that pack of forgiving all-rounders, GKs are even more well-rounded. :D But that generalist capability does not come cheaply. More on that in a bit...

 

Compare Marine armies to any non-Marine army -- especially the Xenos -- and the differences are stark.

 

It's not that Marine armies are "easy" ... but they are genuinely "easier" to play than non-Marine armies. You are rarely forced into "give and take" decisions with respect to tactical capabilities when building a Marine army list. Again, compare with building army lists for any non-Marine army. The differences are stark.

 

I don't think there is any shame in admitting this. And for us old hands with years of experience and pain under the Daemonhunters codex ... it's kind of a strange feeling.

 

But being well-rounded and forgiving does not equate to being overpowered. I asserted that GKs are the most well-rounded army in an entire class of well-rounded armies, but they are also the least forgiving army in an entire class of forgiving armies. Model counts are considerably lower than any other Marine army variant. While our mid-range shooting is formidable, other armies can actually match or exceed us in that realm (e.g., IG, Necrons), and we have very little in the way of long-range shooting.

 

We have a very weak presence in the new realm of flyers; without allies, the GK army can be very susceptible to air strikes. The stormraven is definitely "good" and useful, but it's essentially the cost of land raider. More so if you actually want some firepower on board; truly, it isn't all that frightening as a "gun ship". Basic Necron night scythes are way scarier for half the cost. Taking even one stormraven means an even lower model count in a low model count army. Taking more than one? We're talking eggs in baskets here.

 

These are just two of the exploitable weaknesses GKs have. There are many more if you care to look.

 

People that sincerely complain that GKs are overpowered aren't paying attention. They are close-minded and unwilling to actually play the game. They just want easy answers.

 

I grant that this is a game, and 6e strongly pushes for "the spirit of the game" and a cooperative "forging of narratives". But that does mean cooperation. There is no shame in wanting to field the GK army you want. By the same token, if you are up against, say, a long-time Tyranids player, it is incumbent upon you to recognize the inherent balance issue between that specific matchup, through no fault of the Tyranids player. Make some concessions in the spirit of having a more competitive matchup.

 

But most of the time in my experience, complaining opponents are simply unwilling to cooperate. They are unwilling to deploy different units available to them to try and exploit the weaknesses in their Marine (and GK) opponents' forces. That close-mindedness is totally against the spirit of the game.

 

And in 6e, where nearly every army has access to allies, there is virtually no excuse for not mixing things up in an attempt to shore up weaknesses you might have with respect to Marines (and GKs). People who refuse to use the tools GW has kindly provided need an attitude adjustment, not vindication in their tunnel vision.

[Thorian]

Thanks for the more replies, i was wavering on if i should start a Dark Eldar Hellion army due to the reactions i got in stores but you have to do what you enjoy, which for me is the Inquisition which has always been my favourite part of the 40k fluff since i first discovered this game over 10 years ago and since now the only way to field them is in the Grey Knight codex due to them being dropped from the Sisters, i only have one codex choice.

 

Only gripe for me personally is the fact they got rid of the Stormtroopers as i would of fielded an army of them backed up by 1 or 2 elite squads of GK but i have no wish to take Coteaz so i can field a half hearted version of them.

 

Thanks again guys and im hoping i can get a squad of 10 Terminator's painted up over the Christmas break.

[number6]

Only gripe for me personally is the fact they got rid of the Stormtroopers as i would of fielded an army of them backed up by 1 or 2 elite squads of GK but i have no wish to take Coteaz so i can field a half hearted version of them.

IG allies FTW. ;) It's what I'll be doing long-term, first painting up "Inquisitorial Stormtroopers" as IG allies for my White Scars, then incorporating them back into my GK army to more closely replicate the army structures possible under the old Daemonhunters codex.

 

You could either play IG as the "base" force, or GKs as the "base" force, it'll work either way. The direction you go will depend upon how many non-Troops units you want to employ from either codex.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Number6 has it correctly I think. It's no secret that I am a long time Inquisition fluff nut, I LOVE my Inquisition. My entire army fluff revolves around a cadre of Inquisitors formerly trained under the same master. It links everything together. I have 40 IST models that serve various roles as henchmen. I've been considering making them Stormtroopers or IG vets and using allies, but so far I haven't.

 

The fact is, just gather a bunch of models you like, paint them how you like, and don't worry about it. People will ALWAYS complain about things. When you start just picking things for fun and giggles, they either get over it and have fun themselves, or they aren't worth playing to be bluntly honest. For my Tau army (yes, non-power armor but it's to show a point) I'm considering purchasing a baggage gnarloc as a troops choice that no longer scores when it's 2 or 4 handlers are dead. Why? Because it's fun, fits my army fluff, and is a neat model. I have all sorts of models that are bad ruleswise but I still use because I love the model and the stories with them. I have a generic confessor with a plasma gun and eviscerator because Father Presence has been with my army collection since I started with the 3rd ed SoB article. Horrible model compared to the named confessors in the current 'Dex, but he's just fun and looks neat. I field henchmen squads that make no sense but are just a collection of a bunch of fun models because I'm going for an actual Inquisitors warband of mixed folk in theory.

 

I play for fun, and what's fun for me is to play with fun quirky models. I've never had anyone complain about my armies being overpowered. I always have fun and I like to think my opponents do too. At least none of them complain :P

[Thorian]

Have to agree, my Henchmen squads will be a random collection of my favourite models & conversions, henchmen squads should always look like something from a John Blanche sketch book in my opinion.

 

 

On a seperate note, i would like to have the option for a GK character and really like the look of the Brotherhood Champion, seems like he would be fun to play with, i was considering converting one from the Crowe model simple sword swap, possible head swap but just wanted to check if he has any specific Crowe writing on his armour that i would need to remove?

 

Thanks

[jeffersonian000]

On a seperate note, i would like to have the option for a GK character and really like the look of the Brotherhood Champion, seems like he would be fun to play with, i was considering converting one from the Crowe model simple sword swap, possible head swap but just wanted to check if he has any specific Crowe writing on his armour that i would need to remove?

 

Thanks

 

A good way to model a B-Champ would be to use an Emperor's Champion model dressed up as a Deathwatch Kill Team "Black Shield". Fits in better with the Inquistional theme than as a stand alone GK in an essentially "IG" mob.

 

SJ