Do we have a proper CC hero comparison?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm trying to get an idea of how different close combat HQ options stack up. We have lots of options for melee HQs, but who is really the best?

 

I'm looking for numbers (or just people's experience) comparing the following:

 

The power armored choices:

 

Huron

Khârn

Lucius

Mace Lord

Axe Lord

Claw Lord/Claw+Fist Lord

Sorcerer

Ahriman maybe?

Warpsmith

 

The bigger choices:

 

Abaddon

Typhus

Terminator lord with single weapon and combi weapon

Terminator lord with two weapons

Axe Terminator lord

Mace terminator lord

Daemon prince without a daemon weapon

Mace prince

Axe prince

 

Of course, lots of these comparisons will be complicated by drastically different points costs. My goal is to identify the characters with the best killing power vs points cost, and also to get an idea of what special characters really offer over lords, and what lords lose out on compared to special characters in order to gain their mobility options.

[zyl-]

Since we can use biomancy powers with a prince, that will end up being the ultimate mele monster I think. Nurgle mark and wings allow for that freakishly high cover save while closing the distance, and then once you are in, iron arm, endurance, warpspeed, enfeeble, and gift of contagion are all going to be wicked mele powers which get even more vicious when stacked. The Black Mace stays AP2 on the prince thanks to smash, and causes random death to boot. Also, princes are the only unit we have that can deliver AP2 str10 attacks at initiative (via smash) as if AP2 attacks at initiative aren't impressive enough. I can't claim that the points cost would be the best, but for stats, this is hands down the best.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Flying Nurgle Princes do not exist. They cannot exist. A flyer must move a minimum distance to stay airbourne, Daemon of Nurgle has Slow and Purposeful and can only move 6 inches at all times. Don't bother with moving it like a jump creature...still can only move 6 inches and cancels out bonuses.

[AL-PiXeL01]

I just looked in the rulebook. It mentions many movement actions that a Slow and Purposeful unit cannot do, but none of them are the ones mentioned for flying monsters or jump infantry.

So flying Nurgle creatures do exist.

[Cpt_Reaper]

My mistake then. I guess i am still getting the hang of 6th edition and the new Chaos Codex.

[LordRoY]

Flying Nurgle Princes do not exist. They cannot exist. A flyer must move a minimum distance to stay airbourne, Daemon of Nurgle has Slow and Purposeful and can only move 6 inches at all times. Don't bother with moving it like a jump creature...still can only move 6 inches and cancels out bonuses.

 

Please tell me you are joking...

[nurglez]

Worth remembering that a flying/swooping nurgle prince can't do the 2d6 run move due to slow and purposeful, at least I don't think he can...

 

I've also been toying with the idea of a terminator lord with a power axe + the black mace, seems the best way to use the mace when not on a daemon prince...

[Nehekhare]

guys...

 

slow & purposeful, p. 42: a unit with this rule cannot run, turboboost, move flat out, perform sweeping advances or fire overwatch.

 

A SWOOPING monstrous flying creature (p. 49) just moves 12"-24" (and would be able to run another 2d6" if not S&P).

 

NOTHING else of the effects of this special rule affects it (unless gliding and winning a combat or being charged).

[Sception]

Of course, the prevention of sweeping advances is itself a major drawback. You need that high initiative sweep to keep enemy marines from just falling back after your charge & leaving you exposed to the enemy guns.

[Nehekhare]

[delicious sarcasm]

Ah, I just love how the new rules bring us all closer together :D

[Jiron]

Well, to get back to the topic... I must say I think Khârn is the killiest of all of them. I don't use terminators as I often play against necrons. There is very little more anoying then killing some tough guys hard but never have a chance to sweep them. You becomes locked in combat for eternity untill the last of them die... which takes long because they stand up.

 

Khârn has plenty of attacks, hits on 2+ at STR 5. Also don't forget armourbane and Deny the witch. This all for 160pts.

[Deadman Wade]

Well, to get back to the topic... I must say I think Khârn is the killiest of all of them. I don't use terminators as I often play against necrons. There is very little more anoying then killing some tough guys hard but never have a chance to sweep them. You becomes locked in combat for eternity untill the last of them die... which takes long because they stand up.

 

Khârn has plenty of attacks, hits on 2+ at STR 5. Also don't forget armourbane and Deny the witch. This all for 160pts.

Khârn is awesome, but I still prefer Abaddon - more killing power and he actually survives more than one round of combat.

[Svarte Hanske]

Huron is pretty awesome.

 

His only drawback is he might not survive long :/

[Deadman Wade]

Huron is pretty awesome.

 

His only drawback is he might not survive long :/

Could anyone tell me what's so good about Huron? I've reed many times that he's considered as a good HQ choise. Aside from his situational warlord trait, he's got either 3 S5 AP2 I1 or 3 S6 AP3 I5 attacks, while Khârn has 5 S6 AP2 I5 attacks, higher WS, hits on 2+ and has Hatred. Even regular chaos lord can be better fighter than Huron.

[brindley]

I don't see huron as being a beast in combat compared to other hq's, but he gives infiltrate as his big advantage.

 

Khârn actually has his attacks at s6 with gorechild, s7 on the charge. I think anyway, don't have the book with me.

 

I myself would easily consider the jugger lord with AoBF as best for cost. 4 wounds, T5, about 7-13 attacks or so on the charge at s6, who is cavalry. He has more wounds, higher toughness, and a 4++ for 170 points, farrrr better than Khârn in that sense. That is besides the point though that if I ever did a themed khorne list, i'd have both of them. Khârn with boys in a land raider and jugg lord with bikes going up other side. Now that game would be fun.

 

I just can't get myself to like DP's despite their potential, they are 300 points kitted out. That means to make his points back you need to wipe out either an elite unit or some vehicles and stuff. The problem though would be the many ways that he/it can easily die. I think one build that i'd want to try would be MoT for the rerolling ones to save, with BBoS, allowing me to vector strike a vehicle and flame a unit every turn.

 

Sigh, if only we could buy our characters upgrades like some other books, imagine if Khârn could ride a bike. I'd be willing to spend 35 points on that.

[Trevak Dal]

Huron is pretty awesome.

 

His only drawback is he might not survive long :/

Could anyone tell me what's so good about Huron? I've reed many times that he's considered as a good HQ choise. Aside from his situational warlord trait, he's got either 3 S5 AP2 I1 or 3 S6 AP3 I5 attacks, while Khârn has 5 S6 AP2 I5 attacks, higher WS, hits on 2+ and has Hatred. Even regular chaos lord can be better fighter than Huron.

 

They don't have the Heavy Flamer High Five that preceeds the Melee, though you could give a Lord the Burning Brand (which is AP3) I wonder if it being torrent, if it might not be effective close in...

[Agent Purple]

Huron is good because of master of deception warlord trait. His cost is also much less than Ahriman, who is the other option.

 

His claw is pretty good against 3+ save MEQ infantry too. Not as good as Khârn or axelord, but not terrible either. Choice of AP2 instead if wanted is alright as well.

[Excessus]

Huron is not about melee, and MoD is certainly not "situational". Huron can keep his own in melee against many targets, however a good melee character is not his ideal opponent.

 

When it comes to melee characters, there is the points cost to consider as well. We have a lot of ways to take really expensive HQ choices that are obviously better in cc, but for each one of those we take we could have had two regular ones. The most effective ones should be lying somewhere around 160-170 points, Huron, Khârn and Axelord on jugger/bike are all effective choices that will do harm. Huron not so much as Khârn or an axelord, but certainly enough for anything lest than a dedicated melee HQ opponent. I would not consider Warpsmiths/Apostles/Sorcerers/Lucious/Ahriman powerful cc HQs...

[Deadman Wade]

Huron is not about melee, and MoD is certainly not "situational". Huron can keep his own in melee against many targets, however a good melee character is not his ideal opponent.

 

When it comes to melee characters, there is the points cost to consider as well. We have a lot of ways to take really expensive HQ choices that are obviously better in cc, but for each one of those we take we could have had two regular ones. The most effective ones should be lying somewhere around 160-170 points, Huron, Khârn and Axelord on jugger/bike are all effective choices that will do harm. Huron not so much as Khârn or an axelord, but certainly enough for anything lest than a dedicated melee HQ opponent. I would not consider Warpsmiths/Apostles/Sorcerers/Lucious/Ahriman powerful cc HQs...

Huron loses not only to dedicated melee characters, but to cheap generic HQs as well - like SM librarians, and some cheaper CC HQs like wolf lords or warbosses would kill him easily, also can't fight even against regular infantry well and he's very squishy. Ist MoD alone enough to outweight all his cons?

[Excessus]

SM libbys? With 2 attacks each that hits on fours? Yeah, that's dangerous...

 

...but then again, why is he even in that challenge? You most likely have a champion for that in his unit, while he slaughters regular MEQ together with the rest of his friends...

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Let's not forget that unlike Khârn, Huron has a 4++ Invul Save without having to be Tzeentch-Marked. He's about as survivable as a non-TDA, non-EW, non-FNP having character we have can be.

[Deadman Wade]

Let's not forget that unlike Khârn, Huron has a 4++ Invul Save without having to be Tzeentch-Marked. He's about as survivable as a non-TDA, non-EW, non-FNP having character we have can be.

With T4 and 3+/4++ it's very easy to instant-kill Huron, and on charge he can kill 3-4 models at best. MoN lord with sigil, VoTLW, blight grenades, claw and fist hits harder, costs less, unlocks plague marines as troops, provides defensive grenades to his unit and has the more survivability than Huron, and that's without a bike.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Let's not forget that unlike Khârn, Huron has a 4++ Invul Save without having to be Tzeentch-Marked. He's about as survivable as a non-TDA, non-EW, non-FNP having character we have can be.

With T4 and 3+/4++ it's very easy to instant-kill Huron, and on charge he can kill 3-4 models at best. MoN lord with sigil, VoTLW, blight grenades, claw and fist hits harder, costs less, unlocks plague marines as troops, provides defensive grenades to his unit and has the more survivability than Huron, and that's without a bike.

 

And is only 5 points cheaper than Huron is, sacrifices his shooting attack, sacrifices Overwatch, doesn't have a combat familiar or its additional attacks (even as bad as they are) unless you buy one for him (which boosts his cost above Huron's), and lacks the per-turn random Psychic power that Huron comes with that conceivably could turn that 3-4 models on the charge kill tally into an entire squad's worth of dead guys by the time he's done. If you need to unlock Plague Marines, yeah, go for the Nurgle Lord, but if not the Master of Deception and Huron's potential lethality/survivability is easily worth 5 points. The lack of EW hurts both in equal regard compared to, say, a Wolf Lord with Saga in CC, but Huron at least stands a chance of rolling it via Biomancy, which is likelier than the Gift of Mutation roll a Nurgle Lord would have to attempt.

[Deadman Wade]

And is only 5 points cheaper than Huron is, sacrifices his shooting attack, sacrifices Overwatch, doesn't have a combat familiar or its additional attacks (even as bad as they are) unless you buy one for him (which boosts his cost above Huron's), and lacks the per-turn random Psychic power that Huron comes with that conceivably could turn that 3-4 models on the charge kill tally into an entire squad's worth of dead guys by the time he's done. If you need to unlock Plague Marines, yeah, go for the Nurgle Lord, but if not the Master of Deception and Huron's potential lethality/survivability is easily worth 5 points. The lack of EW hurts both in equal regard compared to, say, a Wolf Lord with Saga in CC, but Huron at least stands a chance of rolling it via Biomancy, which is likelier than the Gift of Mutation roll a Nurgle Lord would have to attempt.

Ah, I completely forgot that he's a psyker, it makes more sense now. Still, to random for my taste, I prefer more reliable HQs - either full CC character, or survivability/support :blink:

[Excessus]

Ah, I completely forgot that he's a psyker, it makes more sense now. Still, to random for my taste, I prefer more reliable HQs - either full CC character, or survivability/support :)

Huron is an "all-rounder", jack-of-all-trades, master of none. I name my Alpha Legion Huron impersonator "Alphuron the Randomiser", which I find is an accurate description. The psychic power each turn is a bonus and you need to have in mind what kind of powers he can get when you run him around the battlefield, looking at what units could potentially use one of the buffs/debuffs he potentially provides...