Did anyone know about the Space Wolves flaw?

[RapatoR]

Guys it is not portrayal of Abnett. It is portrayal of one unreliable narrator that goes against everything we know from established lore.

All legions are equal, all primarchs are equal (except Horus), that is. Long. Established. Fact.

Believing an unreliable narrator is the same as believing Zso Sahaal in Lord of the Night or Karos the Fateweaver in Aurelian.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually there are three narrators now that say the Space Wolves are Executioners. The Long Fang from Prospero Burns, and then Khârn and Angron from Betrayer. What is put into doubt is whether the role is self-appointed by Russ and then Emperor just condones it or if the Emperor gave the title and no one just happened to be around to record it. But the Space Wolves are now beyond a doubt executioners although whether or not they had anything to do with the two Legions is still left in the air as Angron is apparently the first person they tried to go after and that was a stalemate.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Please stay on topic. "Who knew about the flaw? Who do we think knew?" Discussions about them being executioners and whether ADB loves/hates/indifferent to wolves has been discussed thoroughly. Do not discuss it here.

[hendrik]

in most post-heresy books (the ragnar series, battle of the fang, the current codex, codex armageddon) the wulfen are usually regarded as something secret. eg all space wolves know they need to fight against the wolf within, but don't exactly know what happens when he takes over. the battle of the fang and the ragnar series heavely imply (atleast in my opinion) that only those who came into contact with a wulfen (be it a brother turned fully, or one just showing the first signs of being wulf bitten) learn the "full" truth about the curse of the wulfen.

During the heresy however the curse of the wulfen was much more manifest in the legion (wether this was because of the legion simply being larger, or having most likely higher and faster recruitment procedures is unknown) and they were even gathered into a single company (the 13th, which had non-wulfen members as well). If i recall correctly the 1000th sons were still shocked when they came into contact with the wulfen,and given that the wulfen are a "secret" in the curent 40K storyline I see them being a similar secret in the 30K storyline. Personally i think the wulfen were mostly used during/before the heresy in battles in which no quarter was given, and no reports would be made. this last view upon the wulfen is however, purely based upon my own view and knowledge of the wulfen.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, not sure about the 13th being a Wulfen company. I mean, I know it was for the EoT campaign, but the one short story that features them(will return with a title when I get to my books) says that the 13th were made of older wolves IIRC. I don't remember any mention of Wulfen.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hmm, not sure about the 13th being a Wulfen company. I mean, I know it was for the EoT campaign, but the one short story that features them(will return with a title when I get to my books) says that the 13th were made of older wolves IIRC. I don't remember any mention of Wulfen.

 

From the 13th Company IA....

 

Tales of this Company are vague and often contradictory, but one fact is known: the men of the 13th Great Company were marked apart from the rest of their Chapter, for every one of them bore the Curse of the Wulfen.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, fair enough. Although that's technically strange since in the Heresy-era, the short story Wolf at the Door in the Tales of Heresy anthology made no mention of Wulfen at all and the book Wolf's Honour, while having Wulfen in the 13th's ranks, did not have all of the 13th as Wulfen. And the short story says that the 13th was formed around the remaining two score warriors who fought alongside Russ before the Emperor came to Fenris(page 69). So... yeah. Normally, I just go with "whatever new is what's 'canon'(even though I hate that word)" but I'm not sure how everyone else wants to rectify that.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Remember, the EoT 13th Company, during which the IA was released, all members had the curse but not fully manifested. Those who had it fully manifested were grouped into a fighting group and were often lead by a Wolf Priest so they didn't chase the next car passing by. Those who did not have it fully manifested still had the curse, but were in that blissful goldilocks zone between full manifestation and normal SW non wulfen levels.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, so in the Heresy days, the 13th was the Greybeards(taken from the short story) but by the time 40k rolled around, all the members of the 13th were either Wulfen or on their way there. So it wasn't that they were formed as a Wulfen company but they became a Wulfen company. That sound about right?

 

EDIT: I have to say that I was not around for EoT so much of the fluff released in that time period is unknown to me.

[hendrik]

well to be wolf bitten is far from being a wulfen. in the ragnar novels it is stated that a wolf bitten brother will have yellow eyes, but besides that no other visual hints of being wolf bitten. the current codex however mentions that as grey hunters come to age they all get yellow eyes... what is known is that after the thousand sons escaped prospero russ send the 13th after them

[Grimtooth]

Let's not forget that the Wulfen were fully unleashed against the Thousand Sons during the razing of Prospero while both Custodes and Sisters of Silence were present and we have zero ramifications present in the current lore/fluff of having used said Wulfen.

[Onisuzume]

in most post-heresy books (the ragnar series, battle of the fang, the current codex, codex armageddon) the wulfen are usually regarded as something secret. eg all space wolves know they need to fight against the wolf within, but don't exactly know what happens when he takes over. the battle of the fang and the ragnar series heavely imply (atleast in my opinion) that only those who came into contact with a wulfen (be it a brother turned fully, or one just showing the first signs of being wulf bitten) learn the "full" truth about the curse of the wulfen.

During the heresy however the curse of the wulfen was much more manifest in the legion (wether this was because of the legion simply being larger, or having most likely higher and faster recruitment procedures is unknown) and they were even gathered into a single company (the 13th, which had non-wulfen members as well). If i recall correctly the 1000th sons were still shocked when they came into contact with the wulfen,and given that the wulfen are a "secret" in the curent 40K storyline I see them being a similar secret in the 30K storyline. Personally i think the wulfen were mostly used during/before the heresy in battles in which no quarter was given, and no reports would be made. this last view upon the wulfen is however, purely based upon my own view and knowledge of the wulfen.

(From the Saga of Jorin Bloodfang:)

"In time, the numbers of the sixth legion swelled to a great host.

And many bore the Mark [FRAGMENT MISSING].

And so Russ banded them all into one great company.

And to Bloodfang fell the honour.

Of leading them to laurels and glory.

In the name of Russ and the All Father."

 

Ergo, all of the 13th would have born the mark, and it would have been known to at least some in the 6th legion.

If anyone outside of the legion knows, they don't seem to mind.

Around the EOT-campaign, one Inquisitor mentions having fought alongside the 13th, or at least observed them, and while sickened, didn't seem to persue any action against them or the Space Wolves.

[ShadowMaster]

Mind-boggling when people throw :) at ADB for his masterful portrayal of the SW, after reading the Emperor's gift and Betrayer my respect for the SW went up a lot after the horror that was the SW series (Ragnar series) and to some extent Prospero Burns by Abnett.

 

Well I guess sad people will be sad...

 

Who made the SW justice according to these people? srsly this is getting silly, which writer, which codex, which whatever?

[Kol Saresk]

Who made the SW justice according to these people? srsly this is getting silly, which writer, which coded, which whatever?

In Prospero Burns, Dan Abnett wrote a Long Fang character who said that the Space Wolves were executioners and that they made the Unknown Legions disappear. Until Betrayer came out, the topic was debatable for a few reasons. 1.)The source was a Long Fang and he was trying to scare the crap out of a suspected spy who was serving Magnus. 2.) If the Space Wolves really did kill two entire Legions, then why was Astartes vs Astartes fighting not just distasteful, but regarded as something that hasn't happened and never would(at least until the Heresy broke out)?

 

Point number one was confirmed in Betrayer, the Wolves are indeed the Emperor's Executioners, although whether the appointment was made by the Emperor or if it was self-bequeathed and the Emperor just condones it is still up in the air.

 

Point 2 however is heavily contested by the general attitude of the Space Marines and even by Dan Abnett himself in the attitudes of his characters in the later Heresy novel, Know No Fear. In that book, an Ultramarine was about to censured for contemplating theoretical tactics against other Marines. The very thought was considered to be treasonous by both his commanding officer and his Primarch. Ironically remarked upon later in the story. However, the Astartes motivation was "that he had run theoreticals on all other major adversaries, and it was a tactical blind spot not to know how to fight the Legions. He said, as I understand it, that the Space Marines of the Imperium were the greatest warriors in the galaxy, and thus had an obligation to understand how to fight and defeat the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Thiel declared that Space Marines were the only opponents left worth any theoretical study."

 

From that passage on page 248 of Know No Fear by Dan Abnett, it wouldn't be too hard to believe that Space vs Space Marine was considered to be something that would never happen. And when something is believed to be something that will never happen, it is usually because it hasn't happened. However, that is merely one conclusion, not the conclusion and the point itself is still undecided while heavily contested.

[DarthMarko]

Mind-boggling when people throw :P at ADB for his masterful portrayal of the SW, after reading the Emperor's gift and Betrayer my respect for the SW went up a lot after the horror that was the SW series (Ragnar series) and to some extent Prospero Burns by Abnett.

 

Well I guess sad people will be sad...

 

Who made the SW justice according to these people? srsly this is getting silly, which writer, which codex, which whatever?

Ragnar series were very early work and Abnett is "GREAT" writer...

[ShadowMaster]

Who made the SW justice according to these people? srsly this is getting silly, which writer, which coded, which whatever?

In Prospero Burns, Dan Abnett wrote a Long Fang character who said that the Space Wolves were executioners and that they made the Unknown Legions disappear. Until Betrayer came out, the topic was debatable for a few reasons. 1.)The source was a Long Fang and he was trying to scare the crap out of a suspected spy who was serving Magnus. 2.) If the Space Wolves really did kill two entire Legions, then why was Astartes vs Astartes fighting not just distasteful, but regarded as something that hasn't happened and never would(at least until the Heresy broke out)?

 

Point number one was confirmed in Betrayer, the Wolves are indeed the Emperor's Executioners, although whether the appointment was made by the Emperor or if it was self-bequeathed and the Emperor just condones it is still up in the air.

 

Point 2 however is heavily contested by the general attitude of the Space Marines and even by Dan Abnett himself in the attitudes of his characters in the later Heresy novel, Know No Fear. In that book, an Ultramarine was about to censured for contemplating theoretical tactics against other Marines. The very thought was considered to be treasonous by both his commanding officer and his Primarch. Ironically remarked upon later in the story. However, the Astartes motivation was "that he had run theoreticals on all other major adversaries, and it was a tactical blind spot not to know how to fight the Legions. He said, as I understand it, that the Space Marines of the Imperium were the greatest warriors in the galaxy, and thus had an obligation to understand how to fight and defeat the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Thiel declared that Space Marines were the only opponents left worth any theoretical study."

 

From that passage on page 248 of Know No Fear by Dan Abnett, it wouldn't be too hard to believe that Space vs Space Marine was considered to be something that would never happen. And when something is believed to be something that will never happen, it is usually because it hasn't happened. However, that is merely one conclusion, not the conclusion and the point itself is still undecided while heavily contested.

I was being a bit vague, What I wanted to get of my chest is that I am at a complete loss when it comes to why people are mad at ADB for his masterful portrayal of the SW, which kind of portrayal do these people like? The one they made up when dreaming? The Ragnar Series? Or some early codex? Where did it go wrong? I am baffled.

[Kol Saresk]

It went wrong when A D-B said he was against fanboys and the example he used happened to be the more vocal SW fanboys. Although that he took it all the way to Facebook(if that is true, not saying it isn't just that I never saw it and I can't find it so I can neither confirm nor deny) may not have the smartest move he made and has since been used to make the problem even bigger by saying that he is biased against SW when his writings say otherwise. Of course, the greatest irony I find is that the quote at the beginning of Betrayer is being used as proof of his dislike even though that quote has existed since June 10, 2011. Maybe even earlier. but that fact might be used to say that he was always against Space Wolves even though he was confirming the executioner fluff all the way back then.

[ShadowMaster]

It went wrong when A D-B said he was against fanboys and the example he used happened to be the more vocal SW fanboys. Although that he took it all the way to Facebook(if that is true, not saying it isn't just that I never saw it and I can't find it so I can neither confirm nor deny) may not have the smartest move he made and has since been used to make the problem even bigger by saying that he is biased against SW when his writings say otherwise. Of course, the greatest irony I find is that the quote at the beginning of Betrayer is being used as proof of his dislike even though that quote has existed since June 10, 2011. Maybe even earlier. but that fact might be used to say that he was always against Space Wolves even though he was confirming the executioner fluff all the way back then.

 

madness...madness I tell you :/, it feels silly but this is frustrating for me. I really thought all SW fans would throw themselves in the mud and praise ADB after the magic he created. The portrayal is so perfect imo, he gave them nobility and a code of honor, I fell in love with WH40K 2 years ago and at that point the whole notion of vikings in space seemed a bit retarded. At some point I even tried to read the SW series and it remains the only Space Marine Series I gave up on. But then ADB swept in on a golden chariot and cleared it all up, he saved the SW and gets :P for it, no wonder he gonna talk back when attacked by mad fanboys.

[Billuriye]

It's understandable that AD-B's potrayal of SW upsets some people. It adds to the setting as a whole but it takes away from the perceived awesomeness from the SW.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I highly doubt any type of tactic or weaponry that was used against the Thousand Sons would have been balked at by the Custodes or the Sisters that were with the Wolves on Prospero short of daemonancy/sorcerous magic. They were having their blood boiled with warp-craft and having daemons unleashed upon them.

 

The Wulfen were released and while it was implied the Primarchs of the story (Lorgar, Magnus) might have known about the Wulfen from their discussion on Aerie, it surely seemed to be a surprise to the rest of the Thousand Sons who were like "oh my Primordial Creator what the crap is that!?!" The Custodes seem like a pretty practical lot and the Sisters... well, they strike me as the strong silent types :lol: I dont think they would have told anyone but the Emperor and His inner circle who likely know the flaws of most of the legions.

 

Do we really need to beat the dead horse again?

[DarthMarko]

It went wrong when A D-B said he was against fanboys and the example he used happened to be the more vocal SW fanboys. Although that he took it all the way to Facebook(if that is true, not saying it isn't just that I never saw it and I can't find it so I can neither confirm nor deny) may not have the smartest move he made and has since been used to make the problem even bigger by saying that he is biased against SW when his writings say otherwise. Of course, the greatest irony I find is that the quote at the beginning of Betrayer is being used as proof of his dislike even though that quote has existed since June 10, 2011. Maybe even earlier. but that fact might be used to say that he was always against Space Wolves even though he was confirming the executioner fluff all the way back then.

Yes, he took that to the fb-page, which was very childish...Just imagine Gav Thorpe reacting to any negative comments about him :-)

Also one author gives you one version, another gives you second (repairing first and rewritting everything ), third gives you third (repairing second and rewritting everything) - "and the fanboys are to blame".....I mean "just give us one version damn it"....

+ I don't want to talk about deviating from codex/index astartes - all in all - MESS...

 

Warhammer is ours - not "some" author's playground, so we have every right to burst sometime...

[Billuriye]

Yes, he took that to the fb-page, which was very childish...Just imagine Gav Thorpe reacting to any negative comments about him :-)

 

Anybody insulted Gav Thorpe's integrity? Excuse a decent writer for being offended about something he didn't do or deserve and try to raise some awareness.

[DarthMarko]

Yes, he took that to the fb-page, which was very childish...Just imagine Gav Thorpe reacting to any negative comments about him :-)

 

Anybody insulted Gav Thorpe's integrity? Excuse a decent writer for being offended about something he didn't do or deserve and try to raise some awareness.

Dude, there will be negative-biased comments "always"...So what is the best way to deal with them...? Ignore....Everything else is like "Jay and Silent Bob strike back" style...

[hendrik]

less talk about the authors, more about the flaw! :P

 

edit, wrong book!: In my opinion the event in prospero burns battle of the fang where one of the (I believe wolf guard pack leader?) succumbs to the curse is crucial in understnading how well spread the knowledge of the curse was. I always interpretated that scene that only a select few who ever came into contact with a wulfen/a brother succumbing to the curse/being marked themselves know about it

[Onisuzume]

Well, except for Russ himself, it appears, because he knew that many bore the mark, and he could pick them out from the others to put them all into one great company (the 13th). So I'm guessing that it would be somewhat known within the 13th company.