Did anyone know about the Space Wolves flaw?

[hendrik]

doh! mentioned the wrong book! i was offcourse talking about battle of the fang. during 30K i'm sure knowledge of the wulfen was widespread throughout the legion, since there was an entire company made out of them/those bearing the mark.

[Grimtooth]

Hmm, not sure about the 13th being a Wulfen company. I mean, I know it was for the EoT campaign, but the one short story that features them(will return with a title when I get to my books) says that the 13th were made of older wolves IIRC. I don't remember any mention of Wulfen.

 

If you follow the story more closely, specifically when the wolf lord goes into battle against a Dark Eldar HQ, he let's the inner beast go a couple of times. That would be him letting hiself succumb to the curse aka Mark of the Wulfen. None of the 13th in Wolf at the Door actually succumb completely, but the effects of the curse are apparent in those battles.

 

There is also mention of how the geneseed effected those older aspirants of Russ' original Fenrisian retainers and how they were called the Greybeards and Wolf Brothers.

[Grimtooth]

Actually there are three narrators now that say the Space Wolves are Executioners. The Long Fang from Prospero Burns, and then Khârn and Angron from Betrayer. What is put into doubt is whether the role is self-appointed by Russ and then Emperor just condones it or if the Emperor gave the title and no one just happened to be around to record it. But the Space Wolves are now beyond a doubt executioners although whether or not they had anything to do with the two Legions is still left in the air as Angron is apparently the first person they tried to go after and that was a stalemate.

 

Kol, I have a question for you.

 

With Abnett and Prospero Burns you have several Wolves, including Russ, brining up the executioners role. That was not good enough for people because they all said it was just Wolves trying to impress an outsider. Next up we have Fear to Tread where again, being executioners is brought up. Again not good enough for people because it was again just Wolves talking amongst themselves. Now we have two complete outsiders bringing up the Wolves executioners role, and now the question arises if Russ self-ppointed this role or if it was the Emperor.

 

Are you going to keep just raising the bar of proof to keep raising a doubt regarding the executioner role?

 

And the fact that Angron was left alive would seem to lend credence to the fate of the other two legions because as Lorgar (iirc) points out, it was Russ' hand to play if he wanted Angron dead. If anything it sets the bar for how much worse then Angron the two missing legions might have been to face full sanction and expunging from Imperial records.

[A D-B]

It went wrong when A D-B said he was against fanboys and the example he used happened to be the more vocal SW fanboys. Although that he took it all the way to Facebook(if that is true, not saying it isn't just that I never saw it and I can't find it so I can neither confirm nor deny) may not have the smartest move he made and has since been used to make the problem even bigger by saying that he is biased against SW when his writings say otherwise. Of course, the greatest irony I find is that the quote at the beginning of Betrayer is being used as proof of his dislike even though that quote has existed since June 10, 2011. Maybe even earlier. but that fact might be used to say that he was always against Space Wolves even though he was confirming the executioner fluff all the way back then.

 

madness...madness I tell you :/, it feels silly but this is frustrating for me. I really thought all SW fans would throw themselves in the mud and praise ADB after the magic he created. The portrayal is so perfect imo, he gave them nobility and a code of honor, I fell in love with WH40K 2 years ago and at that point the whole notion of vikings in space seemed a bit retarded. At some point I even tried to read the SW series and it remains the only Space Marine Series I gave up on. But then ADB swept in on a golden chariot and cleared it all up, he saved the SW and gets :lol: for it, no wonder he gonna talk back when attacked by mad fanboys.

 

It's totally not that dramatic. I can name...4? 5? people who've reacted negatively, out of a wealth of good reviews and hundreds of Space Wolf fans that dig how I write the Legion and the Chapter. I tend to only respond to misunderstandings or direct lies, which is why I responded to the nonsense about me being biased against the Wolves. I am, hands down and by far, the most careful author when it comes to bias. I love every faction; I have blog posts and forum posts explaining the perils of bias and the differences between writing conflicting factions credibly and writing them as fanservice or as unrealistic losers to make the protagonists look better/worse; and it's something I treat with almost hilariously grave care, when every other professional I know who works in the license tells me to stop worrying about it so much. With every single draft I send to my editors and reading circle, it goes with the statement: "Tell me if anyone looks stupid." My reviews and feedback bear out (thank you, merciful Jeebus) that I reckon I nail this pretty well.

 

For the record, I didn't take anything to Facebook - someone posted to me on Facebook about me "attacking Space Wolf fans" and I replied on Facebook in kind. I gather it was a forum quote originally, but that was in my period of being clean for 2 months, and neither reading or posting. I said Space Wolf fandom was the largest and therefore had a higher percentage of aggressive fans. Because of that size demographic, no other fandom has as many fans that respond negatively to being told their faction isn't the "most powerful", and that it's as equal as all the others. Which, of course, it is. And d'you know what happened? 99% of people in the debate said "Yeah, the Space Wolves are equal" except for a few diehards that said "No, the Space Wolves are more powerful than any other Legion."

 

But... um... they're not. That's not my opinion. That's the setting. I'm not insulting anyone by pointing that out. I wasn't even rude about it. I've certainly not made the Legion look bad in my work, and less than 10 posters insisting I have, citing flawed reasoning in the face of an ocean of contrary evidence, aren't going to convince me otherwise.

 

Compare that reaction with how I take valid criticism about my work, which is to nod along and feel secretly wretched, and usually think "Well, I hate my work, too, so give me a high-five and let's blow this joint."

 

Yes, he took that to the fb-page, which was very childish...Just imagine Gav Thorpe reacting to any negative comments about him :-)

 

Anybody insulted Gav Thorpe's integrity? Excuse a decent writer for being offended about something he didn't do or deserve and try to raise some awareness.

Dude, there will be negative-biased comments "always"...So what is the best way to deal with them...? Ignore....Everything else is like "Jay and Silent Bob strike back" style...

 

Totally. But if we all did the best reaction in every situation, the world would be a very different place. As I've stated, a squillion times, none of my Space Wolf responses were to (thankfully rare...) criticism about my work. It was about personal stuff. If I say you're biased and have an agenda and are massively unprofessional in your job - especially if I provide no evidence and - I wouldn't whine and sneer when you replied. Especially not if you replied with a mass of evidence to the contrary.

 

I responded directly to lies about me being biased about the Space Wolves, or having an agenda, or massive misinterpretations of a scene that, in fairness, every other review and forum comment has understood from the surface to the underlying nuances.

 

Incidentally, I've done the most out of the other authors beyond Dan to confirm the "Space Wolves as executioners" theory, despite the very fact you could argue there were other Legions much better suited to it. I've been on his side from Day 1, even reducing the idea that the World Eaters or the Night Lords could do it, and listing the many reasons they'd be bad at it. I also had them outmanoeuvre the Inquisition and the Grey Knights in The Emperor's Gift, shaking both factions to their cores and forcing the famous stalemate, making it clear few other Chapters could have reached such a result. I had Bjorn the Fell-Handed stop a civil war by his very presence, and the fact he walked at the Emperor's side. I play Space Wolves; they're my Horus Heresy army in a Tale of Four Gamers thing with three other guys that work in GW HQ. They're a Legion I've tried to write about for years, but they were always reserved. I went into my first ever Heresy meeting wanting to pitch for Prospero, but it was already being done. Can you see how absolutely idiotic it is, in the face of all that (all of which is repeatedly in the public eye), to say I'm biased against them, or I mistreat them? To keep saying that even when I say these things, over and over, and countless other people cite their own references plainly in the novels to support what I'm saying? I'd be willing to put my passion for the Wolves (for any Legion, bar one, actually...) alongside anyone's. I've worked hard to make this a career, after all.

 

I'm not 13. I don't write anything to make MY FACTION YAY! look brilliant at the expense of other factions. I don't even understand people who only like one or two Chapters, or can easily choose their favourite Legion. I love them all.

 

Compare all that with... Russ losing one fight that you think he should've won. Okay, fine. Even then, his Legion still won the battle. They proved their point, and both sides came out of it with pride intact and a claim they were the winners, in a fight that no one won by virtue of it happening in the first place. Balance. The Legions are equal. Some win some fights, others win others. The only arguments I've ever been in with Space Wolf fans were when I (gasp!) said the Legions were equal, that the Wolves weren't individually better fighters despite what one in-universe narrator says; and that we as fans know they didn't kill the Lost Legions because no one killed them, their lore is sacred and untouchable. Those things are all true, whether that makes me the herald of dire news for WOLVES ARE THE BEST fans or not. I can't lie and make them The Best Legion just because they have the biggest and most vocal fanbase. I have integrity. They win some, they lose some. They have virtues and flaws. And I still show them getting the upper hand more often than not, and support Dan in the executioner theory.

 

I'm not biased. You're confusing the fact that you're seeing them in stalemates for once with not seeing them win everything all the time like every previous portrayal of the Legion. I've not insulted the Wolves, or Wolves fans. Stop pretending I am, or that I did. That's literally all I ask. If it's too much for you to do (and it seems to be) that's fine, too. I'm pretty happy with the way the evidence leans on this one, no matter how juicy a few forum comments can make a candleflame look like an inferno.

 

I'll try to make this the last I say about it; I wrote this out here for something to link to the next time it comes up.

[KarkassBC]

@ADB

 

Don't waste too much time writing about "pro-against SW" attitude.

 

You are an exceptional writer. Use your time to write other masterfully books and enjoy your family.

 

You will always find someone who doesn't agree which your work no matter what you do.

 

The other readers will give you many thanks for your work.

 

 

 

About the many topics:

 

1 - In the 30K the SW flaw was known between the other Legions and Administratum/Inquisition but not widely. Also there are two levels for the flaw, the first one the Wulfen stage at least widely accepted, because the SW became only more aggressive and covered with fur but capable of targetting the enemy and not the allies.

 

2 - The SW reaching the 2nd level were killed by their brothers and in that way the knowledge was very little.

 

3 - The SW can fill every role they want to do... maybe even the Executioners... but in reality they can kill only Legions less numerous like TS and AL... going against WE, WB or UM at full strenght, they cannot complete the task due to attrition (they recruit only on Fenris, the other 3 recruited in many worlds)

 

Bye

[Kol Saresk]

I remember hearing somewhere that the KSons were about the same strength as the Wolves when Prospero happened and that, while more damaging to the KSons, it was pretty damaging to the Wolves as well. I don't know, I think that was a rumor, I'm not sure. I just know what the KSons numbers were after Prospero.

[DarthMarko]

About the many topics:

 

3 - The SW can fill every role they want to do... maybe even the Executioners... but in reality they can kill only Legions less numerous like TS and AL... going against WE, WB or UM at full strenght, they cannot complete the task due to attrition (they recruit only on Fenris, the other 3 recruited in many worlds)

 

Bye

Concept of executioners is ok by me...Even against larger legions...Why? Because they go for the throat, like ADB put in his "betrayer" and in the "Emperor's gift"...

I mean you don't have to be most powerful army to win a war against other...Remeber Shrike? They just hurled that ruler from the cliff and the fight was over, if you understand what I mean....

Btw I don't see SW as best millitary force, or that they have anti astartes genes, just with they unique style of living/fighting/acute senses are best for the role as Empy's personal killers...(insert fanboish grin, and my long fang)

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Not the Emperor's personal killers. The Wolves tagged along with that lot when they burned Prospero; the Custodes and some might argue the Sisterhood for they are the Emperor's official sanction. As the Custodes joked in Outcast Dead, "We're His favorites" or something along those lines. The Wolves get unleashed on anything as they just dont get dismayed at having to "put a kill stroke" to anyone; whether it is brother Space Marines, Custodes, assassins or just about anything. Good dogs are loyal to a fault. The Wolves dont get moments of dismay that pretty much all the other legions have at fighting fellow members of the Imperium like the Ultramarines, Fists, SoH/Luna Wolves, Blood Angels, Word Bearers and others. They are capable of anything and that is the point of them to paraphrase.

 

@Kol: Dont know about that one but I do know the Thousand Sons were considered to be one of the smallest Legions prior to the Heresy. The Wolves have always struck me as the larger legion but that is only based off their current Chapter numbers and all the background on the Thousand Sons starting off so small and remaining that way due to geneseed instability.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Folks, cease discussing ADB's take on SW fans NOW please. Get back to the topic please.

[Kol Saresk]

@Kol: Dont know about that one but I do know the Thousand Sons were considered to be one of the smallest Legions prior to the Heresy. The Wolves have always struck me as the larger legion but that is only based off their current Chapter numbers and all the background on the Thousand Sons starting off so small and remaining that way due to geneseed instability.

True, but with the average Legion being about 100,000 strong and maybe 30,000 at the smallest and who knows at the largest, they still took a pretty big hit. Bigger than any Chapter could take.

[Beef]

@ ADB I dont care about the SW as Executioners (sp) thoery I was happy with them being Space Vikings but then I am a 2nd edition SW fan unlike the new pups who love the Grimdark SW of the Vlka Fenryka and all the newer fluff. Its fine and times change and fluff gets updated and retconned to fit in with newer idead.

I will hand it to you, I read Emperors gift and it was awsome. You portrayed the SW in an awsome light in that book (if anything GK fanboys should take up their torches and pitchforks against you for your portrayal of some of the GK but thats their problem).

In betrayer Russ should still have beaten Angron 1 on 1 but I always thought that deap down in every SW's heart we knew that fight could go either way depending on the day. If we are honest with ourselves we knew it was never gauranteed as a win for Russ say like if he fought Pertuboro or Fulgrim or Lorgar.

So for Emporoer gift I applaude your portrayal.

 

@ Kol_Saresk we dont work on rumours, we are not the Inquisition. The SW were never the biggest legion and I agree they were probably the same size as teh 1000s but no where does it say that the fight with the sons was damaging for teh wolves, bare inmind they also had help from the custodes and the silent sisterhood, without whom yes I belive the dmage would have been more to the SW as they did not have enough counter measure for teh sons tricksy majiks.

 

@ KarkassBC I agree with all your 3 points, especially the 3rd that due to attriction the SW would eventually loose out to larger legions like the Ultra who prior to teh heresy were 250,000 strong while SW were around 100,000 strong. In meet grinder wars the army with the higest no wins out.

 

I want to ask a question why do we consider the curse of the wulfen in its earlier stages a curse at all? I get the later stages are a curse but why the earleir stages? and with teh eralier stages I doubt anybody would notice anyway, so what if those affected are slightly more aggressive and hairier (sp), its no different than say the Sallies with their Ebon skin and red eyes, or the pale nightlords with black eyes, they all look scary in their own ways and so far removed from humans that its no big deal.

[eyeslikethunder]

I loved :D ADB depiction of the Space Wolves in Emperors Gift.

 

It even went deeper into some the space wolves lesser flaws like hatred of teleporters and to what extent it effects them and there willingness to use them when they really have to.

 

I suspect beef the earlier stages are considered a curse because of the path you have started on more than the effects.

[eyeslikethunder]

I remember hearing somewhere that the KSons were about the same strength as the Wolves when Prospero happened and that, while more damaging to the KSons, it was pretty damaging to the Wolves as well. I don't know, I think that was a rumor, I'm not sure. I just know what the KSons numbers were after Prospero.

Only thing with suggestions that the wolves were badly hurt. Is that they along with the Ultramarines do most the Scouring(reclaiming the Imperium) post HH. Suggesting that they dont suffer too much damage during the HH(well at least not as much as the others).

 

 

In Fear to Tread Sanginius seems very concerned that the emperor reaction to blood angel flaw. I had always presumed that the genetic purity issue was a post HH issue.

Its the Emperor uses the Primarchs to speed up the creation of the legions and decides to take these risks

After all the Primarchs were genetically created by the Emperor so why not ask him why the flaw is there/if its is a flaw?

 

Yet the 13th company is meant to be made up of Wulfen/MOTW Space wolves. This combined with the Runepriests I does strike me that Russ is much more confident/ less concerned about the Emperor out than some of the others

[Beef]

Yet the 13th company is meant to be made up of Wulfen/MOTW Space wolves. This combined with the Runepriests I does strike me that Russ is much more confident/ less concerned about the Emperor out than some of the others

 

Or the emperor is fine with it.

[eyeslikethunder]

Or the emperor is fine with it.

Exactly if the Emperor knows- that suggests Russ was willing to talk to him about it otherwise how does he know the Emp is alright with it. Where some of the others seem to want to hide and/or fix the problems themselves. Sanguinius and Magnus come to mind.

 

There does seem to be recurring theme of the space wolves being quite brash with their flaws in the HH. This does fit with their philosophy.

 

 

That has raised another thought did Malcador know the Rune priest was in the space wolf party he sent to the Blood angels and was it deliberate?

[Beef]

Or the emperor is fine with it.

Exactly if the Emperor knows- that suggests Russ was willing to talk to him about it otherwise how does he know the Emp is alright with it. Where some of the others seem to want to hide and/or fix the problems themselves. Sanguinius and Magnus come to mind.

 

There does seem to be recurring theme of the space wolves being quite brash with their flaws in the HH. This does fit with their philosophy.

 

Yes I agree, Brash and rather open, we see the BA locking their afflicted away whilst the SW used their Wulfen in full view of teh custodes who would no doubt tell the EMP, But he most probably new already and was OK with it. Probably as he engineered teh SW DNA anyway, The emp knew the DNA flaws just like he knewe about the 1000 sons flesh curse (correct me if I am mistaken)

 

That has raised another thought did Malcador know the Rune priest was in the space wolf party he sent to the Blood angels and was it deliberate?

 

 

I would like to think it was not deliberate.

[Grimtooth]

@ADB

 

Don't waste too much time writing about "pro-against SW" attitude.

 

You are an exceptional writer. Use your time to write other masterfully books and enjoy your family.

 

You will always find someone who doesn't agree which your work no matter what you do.

 

The other readers will give you many thanks for your work.

 

 

 

About the many topics:

 

1 - In the 30K the SW flaw was known between the other Legions and Administratum/Inquisition but not widely. Also there are two levels for the flaw, the first one the Wulfen stage at least widely accepted, because the SW became only more aggressive and covered with fur but capable of targetting the enemy and not the allies.

 

2 - The SW reaching the 2nd level were killed by their brothers and in that way the knowledge was very little.

 

3 - The SW can fill every role they want to do... maybe even the Executioners... but in reality they can kill only Legions less numerous like TS and AL... going against WE, WB or UM at full strenght, they cannot complete the task due to attrition (they recruit only on Fenris, the other 3 recruited in many worlds)

 

Bye

 

Your second point is flawed because in Battle of the Fang, when they went deep into the Fang to wake up the dreadnaughts, the Iron Priest needed protection from wulfen while they completed their task. The wulfen in that case only showed deference to Bjorn in that case.

[Kol Saresk]

*snip

Yeah like I said, I thought it was a rumor that I heard but considering there was a Titan that blew up, I would say they took some casualties. Maybe not crippling or or major, just that they didn't walk away unscathed and for one reason or another, they never went back to Terra. I don't even know where they are now.

[Vesper]

Yes, he took that to the fb-page, which was very childish...Just imagine Gav Thorpe reacting to any negative comments about him :-)

In fact, Gavin did on his blog. Which takes some guts, because you don't break Chaos every day of your life so facing the Chaos community about what might be one of the worst codex ever printed, yeah, got to be brave.

On the executioners thing. I like it, it makes me laugh that they find they are executioners when they were only dispached once against a Legion : on Prospero (and they pretty much failed to destroy the Thousand Sons and/or kill their Primarch).

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Oh in my own mind the Emperor likely knew about the flaws or potential for flaws rising from his work. He is not perfect. I think more importantly, is that he really did not care that certain Legions were flawed in one way or another as long as they get the job done. Angron can be argued to be the most broken toy in the box but the Emperor doesn't think twice about putting him into the field in command of a Space Marine Legion. He is more than happy to let the flawed ones run around and do His work as long as things are working towards his ends of Galactic conquest/Man's Manifest Destiny. Flaws were secondary to getting the job done. He likely didnt tell them about his uncaring nature towards their genetic disposition as some means of control, so they wouldnt let the inner beast out and go ravage systems as Wulfen or Vampire killers or what have you.

[hendrik]

On the executioners thing. I like it, it makes me laugh that they find they are executioners when they were only dispached once against a Legion : on Prospero (and they pretty much failed to destroy the Thousand Sons and/or kill their Primarch).

you'll find that most executioner references are made before the space wolves took on the thousand sons. I'm not sure where betrayer fits into the storyline as i've not read it but still, most other material depicting the space wolves as executioners are made before the razing of prospero...

[Kol Saresk]

Betrayer is after the events in Butcher's Nails, Know No Fear and after Corax left Istvaan V since Angron was personally trying to hunt him down.

[Vesper]

On the executioners thing. I like it, it makes me laugh that they find they are executioners when they were only dispached once against a Legion : on Prospero (and they pretty much failed to destroy the Thousand Sons and/or kill their Primarch).

you'll find that most executioner references are made before the space wolves took on the thousand sons. I'm not sure where betrayer fits into the storyline as i've not read it but still, most other material depicting the space wolves as executioners are made before the razing of prospero...

 

Which makes even less sense in fact. As we know the attack on the Thousand Sons was their first engagement against fellow SM.

For example, me, I'm Vesper, the destroyer of many worlds, lover to the most fabulously beautiful women on Earth. Some even dare suppose that I may be related to God.

It's all about SW bragging all over the place. "We draw our powers from Fenris, you know" "Yea. Totally executioners, you bet we are". Drunken Space Marines may not be the best, but I think they may be the closest to the humble human... and its flaws.

[hendrik]

well in both prospero burns and a thousond sons it become quite obvious the space wolves were related in the dissapearence of atleast one on the two missing legions. It is about these events they are talking when refered to as executioners, and not the razing of prospero. In either a thousond sons or prospero burns it is also quite clear that the razing or prospero wasn't their first time fighting astartes.

I really advise you to read them, both stories are excellent written and even as a space wolf fan i absolutly loved the way the thousand sons were portrayed. It made their fall seem like a true tragedy instead of just "they sided with tzeentch"

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Which makes even less sense in fact. As we know the attack on the Thousand Sons was their first engagement against fellow SM.

 

Actually, this doesn't make sense. We don't know that - in fact, before Prospero, they fought the WE, so at the very least you're wrong on the engagement part.