Did anyone know about the Space Wolves flaw?

[Vesper]

Which makes even less sense in fact. As we know the attack on the Thousand Sons was their first engagement against fellow SM.

 

Actually, this doesn't make sense. We don't know that - in fact, before Prospero, they fought the WE, so at the very least you're wrong on the engagement part.

 

ADB's Betrayer ?

Haven't read it, does that previous engagement was made accordingly to the "executioner" stuff ? I mean, was it ordered by the emperor as some kind of punishment to the World Eaters ?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Yes, Betrayer. The circumstances of the engagement are still somewhat unclear - ADB said as much in a post here (I think it was in the Betrayer thread, actually) where he deliberately left it open-ended.

[A D-B]

well in both prospero burns and a thousond sons it become quite obvious the space wolves were related in the dissapearence of atleast one on the two missing legions.

 

Not exactly. This is a key point, right here.

 

There are a couple of references to "We've fought Marines before" and "We've been unleashed on a Legion before." But look at that in context. That just means what it says - they've fought Marines before - and a lot of people took it to mean the Lost Legions. Especially, in all fairness, the keenest and most eager Space Wolf fans who were eager for "their Legion" to have done these amazing feats, making them objectively more powerful than any other Legion.

 

Now, for a moment, ignore Dan's awesome marketing line in a promotional video, where he talks about the Space Wolves being the most savage Legion, or simply "so savage that there must be a reason" the Emperor kept them around. The Emperor had several Legions just as savage, if not moreso, and that's been their deal for 25+ years of the license. So, in all fairness, let's call marketing marketing, and realise that every trailer for every book or movie plays with words like that. I said something similar in the trailer for The First Heretic: "A Legion will kneel in the dust of all it created, and the only way they can redeem themselves is to sell their souls." Monarchia wasn't "all" they created, and I'm sure the Word Bearers could've redeemed themselves by, y'know, not starting a civil war. But it's the sense of inevitability that drives the lore and story. It's trailer-talk.

 

So forget the trailer. It's nothing to do with the writing - we need to focus on the writing.

 

At no point is it confirmed as the Lost Legions - and, well, the Wolves are no stronger than any other Legion: it's unlikely they'd be able to murder two other whole Legions, then rock up ready to fight a third a mere century later. That's a conflict on an unprecedented scale. So by logic, even if there was a way they could've fought the Lost Legions in the lore (and we know there's not) it's incredibly unlikely they'd have been ready for Round Three, even against one of the smallest Legions, and even with the help of the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence.

 

But let's leave even that assumption aside for a moment, and focus on cold fact. We, as fans and readers, know that the Wolves didn't kill the Lost Legions. We know that there's no true story about the Lost Legions, and we know that it's unlikely any story will be invented. It's been GW policy to say nothing about them since forever, and all public comment has kept in line about it. We also know that no one author would be allowed to just hand out something like that about the Lost Legions, because that would break every rule about the Lost Legions in the first place. Dan's reference about the Lost Legions was, in that regard, another teaser - just like all the others in Heresy. I threw one in about the Ultramarines being so large because they absorbed the Lost Legions after the two Lost Primarchs 'vanished'. It's no more or less likely than the Space Wolf theory, but the Space Wolf theory targeted the hugest (and arguably most passionate) Marine fandom in the hobby, ostensibly making that faction incredibly powerful, so of course it was going to stick a little harder than any other theory, whether it was supposed to stick or not. My theory wasn't supposed to stick, either: it's in-character discussion from uninformed soldiers on the ground level, not privy to command decisions but still in earshot of all gossip. We, as readers, know that's not true. We know from the lore (or we can easily find out from older source material) that the Ultramarines were huge because of Guilliman's leadership style and Ultramar's organisational process. Just like we know that the Lost Legions' stories won't be revealed.

 

Given all that, do you think Dan would've just broken the One Rule about the Lost Legions, and given them a history? Which is more likely - that he broke the One Rule in a tiny, hinting way that somehow flashed past every editor, or that a few hints have been taken wildly out of context and assumed to be something they're not?

 

But there's more. At this point, the "executioner" theory was, in all consideration, a pretty flimsy case. A cool rumour, a nice edge the Legion may or may not have really had, but they certainly believed they did. No one outside the Space Wolves confirmed it. They'd "fought Marines before", which could've meant anything at all, and categorically didn't mean the Lost Legions, as we've discussed above. But there was no real evidence or case for it at all, beyond the fact that Leman Russ and his Legion invade Prospero, and - let's be honest - manage to succeed by a wild storm of things going in their favour. The Thousand Sons are taken utterly by surprise; their Primarch blinds his men to the attack, going so far as to even kill some of them so Prospero can be surprise-attacked; he sends his Legion's war-fleet away to leave the planet undefended; and doesn't even help his own warriors until the last day. Plus, the Wolves have the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence on their side. To say they didn't have a lot in their favour there is to massively underestimate the tragedy of the Thousand Sons. And that's the deal, there. It's less about how tough the Wolves are, and more about the betrayal and tragedy of the Thousand Sons. it's not the Wolves' story, and that's fine - they've got plenty of stories.

 

Added to that, we know from the first few books and several older lore sources that the Emperor sends Leman Russ to arrest Magnus the Red, and bring him back to Terra. It's Horus who convinces Leman Russ to attack Prospero instead, and wipe the Thousand Sons from the face of the Imperium. There's conflicting lore for that in Prospero Burns, but that's off-screen chatter, whereas we actually see Horus on-screen discussing what happened. In that case, you could argue it's 50/50.The HH team, f'rex, goes by what happened on-screen. You can't retcon Horus saying what he said, and doing what he did. I specifically had questions about this, actually, and that was the answer I got. Horus deceived the Wolves into attack. That's the true (truer...) story. it doesn't make Prospero Burns wrong, because there's no conflict, it just means they show different moments and aspects of the same events. That's kinda the point, so we're all good on that score.

 

So, with that perspective, here's what we know:

 

1. The Space Wolves say they've been unleashed before, and several other Legionnaires have heard about it, too.

 

2. The Wolves have fought other Marines before Prospero, and consider themselves the Emperor's executioners.

 

3. Leman Russ was almost definitely convinced by/deceived by Horus into attacking Prospero. The Emperor just wanted Magnus arrested, as has long been established.

 

4. No author would really reveal the fate of the Lost Legions, as it goes against the core of the Lost Legions concept.

 

1 and 2 are pivotal, here. 3 is debatable, given the "loose canon" nature of 40K as a setting. Everything and nothing is true, sure, although one case has more evidence here. And as for 4, you could argue that's unfair knowledge, as a general reader wouldn't know that without delving deeper into the hobby and fandom. So let's consider 1 and 2 above all. 1 and 2 still categorically say nothing about the Lost Legions, but people assumed for all the reasons stated above.

 

Okay, so we're almost there. (On a personal note: You could argue that me knowing this and pointing it out is somehow insulting or biased against the Wolves, but you'd be wrong. Saying all this before is what triggered several stupid rounds of "AD-B HAS A GRUDGE AGAINST THE WOLVES" which is so nonsensical I couldn't help but reply. However, I'm sure it's disappointing for Wolves fans who had a lot riding on their Legion mythically being the only Legion to be better than all others, but with respect, it's my job to treat the license professionally and seriously, not as a peeing contest of My Dad's Bigger Than Your Dad.)

 

So, cut to my thoughts, if you still have the stomach to ride this rollercoaster all the way to the end. I'm the most ardent supporter of the Wolves-as-executioners, I'm Dan's biggest fan, and have done a lot to add credence and in-universe realism to the executioner theory. The problem is, when I first wanted to add credibility to it, as you can see from a complete picture, the evidence was pretty conflicting. I appreciate it doesn't look at all conflicting to Space Wolf fans that took those little references instantly and utterly to mean the Wolves killed the Lost Legions, but I think we've covered all the reasons that's pretty doubtful. At best. But I still wanted to support the overall idea, and make it make sense in wider context.

 

So I decided to introduce some balance to it from other angles, some explanation-realism, and tie up the loose ends. The Wolves needed some actual evidence for this to really mean anything at all, and I wanted to back up Dan's original idea rather than leave it half-supported and massively misunderstood. They'd fought Marines before, but not the Lost Legions? Who then? Are they really the executioners at all? Is it self-appointed, or an Imperial mandate? Does that last fact even matter?

 

Which is why, in Aurelian, when Lorgar has visions of his Legion being wiped clean from Mankind, Fateweaver tells him that "Russ and Curze" would be the ones to destroy the Word Bearers, in that possible reality.

 

Which is why, in Betrayer, the opening quote is from Khârn's unpublished treatise, stating that the World Eaters would be terrible as the Emperor's executioners, and the Wolves are perfect for it. He insults them as he does it, from the point of view of a bitter man struggling with his own loyalty. The theme of Betrayer from start to finish is one of Fraternal Loyalty: the ways emotion can enrich or sour it, and what it means in the face of duty - or worse - necessity. And Khârn's prediction is absolutely right, when the two Legions meet. One of them is lost to their neural implants, lost to uncontrollable savagery. Their goal is to kill, and they do it. The other fights to achieve a specific objective (trying to avoid spoilers), and they do it to perfection, too.

 

Which is why, also in Betrayer, the Wolves do indeed "fight other Marines in the past", in difficult circumstances, and yet it's a situation that offers both sides of the situation salvageable pride (both the Wolves and the World Eaters believe they've "won" the encounter - and by the moralities and cultures of their Legions' perspectives, they did both win). And, natch, it confirms the fact the Wolves believed this was their role among the Legions - and most importantly, they acted like it was their role - without confirming the fact the Emperor may or may not have given it to them.

 

The main issue arises when someone shortens all this into "AD-B says the Wolves didn't kill the Lost Legions" or whatever, and changes the tone of it, missing out the detail. It's not true, it's just that because stuff like this has so much detail and nuance (and I'm the only one really shedding light on it in public/open to discussing it lots) that when it goes into Chinese Whispers, the end result is occasionally people who've had no real contact with the topic's details thinking I'm unprofessional enough to have some weirdly sinister agenda against their toy soldiers. Shoot the messenger. He hates the Space Wolves. He's changing all this stuff. Doesn't matter that it's already the lore.

 

I appreciate it's easy to ignore a lot of this wordy spiel, but a freak-load of consideration and research goes into moments like that. And judging from the forum feedback, reviews, Twitter and facebook, people clearly get all of this from Betrayer, and most readers were well aware of the wider narrative, anyway. The misunderstandings arise from the fact that Prospero Burns has a few in-character lines of dialogue taken as gospel fact, rather than weighed with a little more, uh, consideration. So anything that contradicts those conversational lines in Prospero Burns is seen as wrong, or insulting, by a vocal minority. This is why misunderstandings arise, though. It only becomes a problem when people refuse to change their positions and consider the bigger picture. The main misunderstandings come from Prospero Burns. People take a few minor references to mean something stunningly, massively, hugely major. That's cool, it's also very 40K, but it's shaky ground to then assume anything else is wrong, or argue that conflicting evidence is wrong. Castles built on sand, and all that.

[Vesper]

And Vesper stood atop the mountain of his numberless opponents' bodies, the wind slowly drying the blood on his mighty Fists of Truth and Righteousness. Oh, it's been a hard day, a bloody day that saw many brave men fight and die, yet, all alone, he dispatched them all.

Being pretty humble himself, he didn't took the time to rejoice at the carnage he caused. He was another kind of man. He was a true follower of Crom, and he had yet to pillage and beat before allowing himself to rejoice.

[Beef]

At no point is it confirmed as the Lost Legions - and, well, the Wolves are no stronger than any other Legion: it's unlikely they'd be able to murder two other whole Legions, then rock up ready to fight a third a mere century later. That's a conflict on an unprecedented scale. So by logic, even if there was a way they could've fought the Lost Legions in the lore (and we know there's not) it's incredibly unlikely they'd have been ready for Round Three, even against one of the smallest Legions, and even with the help of the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence.

 

 

A mere century is enough time to replenish depleted marines. You forget that pre heresy recruitment was done on a massive scale, 100's of aspirants a year not a few handfulls, So whilst not disputing the rest of your post i disagree with the above point, the SW could have taken massive casualties and whithin a 100 years be back up to strenth ready to rock. I totally get the whole missing legions fluff and how GW will always keep them missing and i understand the no where does it state the SW destroyed them. I get the trailer talk. But seriously a centuary is enough to recruit more SW. Pre heresy they were not that stringent on their criteria going so far as even Putting SW geneseed into Longbeards (the older human warrior who were part of Russ's tribe on Fenris, only 1 in every 100 survived) but that shows that the SW were not averse to wasing gene seed furthwer showing that to waste that much there was no shortage unlike in the modern era.

[DarthMarko]

Funny thing is IMHO authors should SIMPLY use one version of the story and stick to it...

Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

[RapatoR]

Funny thing is IMHO authors should SIMPLY use one version of the story and stick to it...

Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

This is not about authors changing stories, this is about miunderstanding what was authors intetion.

 

And this is w40k. Everyone is self-deluded in one way or another.

[DarthMarko]

Funny thing is IMHO authors should SIMPLY use one version of the story and stick to it...

Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

This is not about authors changing stories, this is about miunderstanding what was authors intetion.

 

And this is w40k. Everyone is self-deluded in one way or another.

 

Even more funny is that we need authors to tell us "after reading" what was the point of the story :-)

I mean, they imply, suggest and tease you with some theory, you bite (little harder), and then you are dumb for misunderstanding the moral story...Ok...

Fans are fans...but authors and marketing are not innocent, also...

[A D-B]

Funny thing is IMHO authors should SIMPLY use one version of the story and stick to it...

Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

This is not about authors changing stories, this is about miunderstanding what was authors intetion.

 

And this is w40k. Everyone is self-deluded in one way or another.

 

Even more funny is that we need authors to tell us "after reading" what was the point of the story :-)

 

Not at all. As I've said, I've seen less than 10 people, out of several hundred reviews, comments, messages and posts, who didn't see this clearly from Prospero Burns and Betrayer, anyway. It's not something that needs explaining - most of the above post is me shedding some behind-the-scenes light on why I confirmed the Wolves as executioners; not explaining the stuff already written. Most people coming into it see everything clearly, and know the value of an unreliable narrator.

 

I mean, they imply, suggest and tease you with some theory, you bite (little harder), and then you are dumb for misunderstanding the moral story...Ok...

Fans are fans...but authors and marketing are not innocent, also...

 

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, but you have to understand how this:

 

Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

 

...is indicative of a very difficult, stubborn, and uncommunicative position. "My Legion would never have Problem X" is, well, plainly nonsense. It's Warhammer 40,000. Every faction is wrong to some degree, about something. Every faction is ignorant about the past, or ignorant about some key truth. Every faction has some kind of hypocrisy or flaw. No faction is objectively "right", they're just . No faction is "the best". Every faction suffers crippling defeats from time to time, especially in the Heresy. It doesn't make them weak or stupid.

 

Resisting those truths is only going to leave a pretty shallow level of understanding for the setting. Pretty much all the information above was readily available. If someone chose to ignore most of it and take the few "My faction is right and the best" stuff as truthful fact, then that's their prerogative, but to most everyone else, that was plainly false, or in-universe bias from unreliable narrators - or they've identified other ways the Wolves look hypocritical, like their use of psykers after Nikea. The information is clearly out there. It just comes down to bias: whether you choose to accept all of it in the bigger picture, or just the stuff that unrealistically makes one's favourite faction better than everyone else.

 

Your quote above has a lot of overreaction and bias about a Legion (implying it's "questionign the Wolves' sanity" purely because they might be deceived or hypocritical, like every other Legion is to some degree), in the same thread you implied I was hugely compromised and biased. I think one of us is probably presenting a more detailed and evidenced approach, and one of us just doesn't want the Space Wolves to have any flaws at all. At this point, given the situation, I honestly can't understand how you think there's still a case, here. You chose to believe only the references that exalted the Space Wolves. There's a much wider picture out there.

[Beef]

Most people coming into it see everything clearly, and know the value of an unreliable narrator.

 

 

I hope so as most BL books these days seem to have an unreliable narrator of some sorts, is this a new trend? are the days when you could read a book like Kings Ragnar series and when he mentioned the curse of the wulfen (see how i kept it on topic A D-B, DarthMartho et al) you were in no doubt the narrator was reliable, then you had Gav's Dark angel book with the captured fallen and you were treated to an unreliable narrator. back then it was a rare treat trying to figure out what was meant and implied. Now its all we have as if its going to make the book better by being cryptic. No it does not make it better, it just cause more interweb traffic and arguments.

 

@DarthMarko you wrote Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

 

We all know the SW legion is not deluded and then by that logic they must be emperor's executioners. Simples

[Vesper]

@DarthMarko you wrote Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

 

We all know the SW legion is not deluded and then by that logic they must be emperor's executioners. Simples

 

You really think they get their psychic powers from Fenris ? Ever considered you may be self deluted a little bit ?

[DarthMarko]

...is indicative of a very difficult, stubborn, and uncommunicative position. "My Legion would never have Problem X" is, well, plainly nonsense. It's Warhammer 40,000. Every faction is wrong to some degree, about something. Every faction is ignorant about the past, or ignorant about some key truth. Every faction has some kind of hypocrisy or flaw. No faction is objectively "right", they're just . No faction is "the best". Every faction suffers crippling defeats from time to time, especially in the Heresy. It doesn't make them weak or stupid.

 

Resisting those truths is only going to leave a pretty shallow level of understanding for the setting. Pretty much all the information above was readily available. If someone chose to ignore most of it and take the few "My faction is right and the best" stuff as truthful fact, then that's their prerogative, but to most everyone else, that was plainly false, or in-universe bias from unreliable narrators - or they've identified other ways the Wolves look hypocritical, like their use of psykers after Nikea. The information is clearly out there. It just comes down to bias: whether you choose to accept all of it in the bigger picture, or just the stuff that unrealistically makes one's favourite faction better than everyone else.

 

Your quote above has a lot of overreaction and bias about a Legion (implying it's "questionign the Wolves' sanity" purely because they might be deceived or hypocritical, like every other Legion is to some degree), in the same thread you implied I was hugely compromised and biased. I think one of us is probably presenting a more detailed and evidenced approach, and one of us just doesn't want the Space Wolves to have any flaws at all. At this point, given the situation, I honestly can't understand how you think there's still a case, here. You chose to believe only the references that exalted the Space Wolves. There's a much wider picture out there.

First @Aaron, ty for replying...Second, I'm not some rabid fanboy who wants my favorite legion to be best, I just want honest simple truth, with the pinch of doubt attributed to them...Now, this is my point of view, or my wish...If I offended you in any way I apologize, I was speaking "in general" with authors , never mentioned your name, not once...My point is that, there are fans who don't support some theories which BL serves them...and that is all...

[Excessus]

@DarthMarko you wrote Now basically, "are SW emperor's executioners" debate is questioning their sanity and "are they self deluded or not" ,which is not cool...

My favorite legion is not self deluded...

 

We all know the SW legion is not deluded and then by that logic they must be emperor's executioners. Simples

 

You really think they get their psychic powers from Fenris ? Ever considered you may be self deluted a little bit ?

I was just about to write that Vesper! :turned:

 

The Space Wolves are at the very pinnacle of self-deludedness, their hypocracy is beyond understanding!

 

...what's my favorite legion? Well, Thousand Sons was why I got hooked on CSM from the start all those years ago. Naturally I have a special place for the Space puppies in my heart... ;)

[hendrik]

absolutly loved your reply aaron. I always interpretated the trailer talk+ vague references to having fought against other marines as a refence to dealing with (one ?) of the missing legions. but then again that might have been the purpose of being so vague, putting us on a wrong trail.

And yes, the space wolves hypocracy is beyond understanding, especially during the council of nikea, however, I always interpretated it as a role that was played by the rune priest( can't recall his name) in order to stop the thousand sons their dabling with the warp. even though it's obvious all psychic powers come from the warp it is in, i believe, a thousand sons that ahriman is "shocked/impressed" by the mastery over the warp by the runepriest, and the huge difference between the use of it between the two factions.

[RapatoR]

Even more funny is that we need authors to tell us "after reading" what was the point of the story :-)

I mean, they imply, suggest and tease you with some theory, you bite (little harder), and then you are dumb for misunderstanding the moral story...Ok...

Fans are fans...but authors and marketing are not innocent, also...

Look, was there any talk of Ultramarines killing lost legions, just because one Word Bearer mentioned they absorbed them?

 

Sometimes people get it, sometimes just jump to the conclusion, noone is stupid or dumb, misunderstanding can happen to everyone.

 

We should be thankful that AD-B is willing to discuss such things and that he is patient enough to explain it to us.

[Kol Saresk]

The biggest question isn't whether or not the Wolves are deluded(the warp/Fenris thing is more of a matter of ignorance/refusal of knowledge than delusion), it is whether or not they are self-appointed as the Emperor's Executioners. Either Russ one day decided that he was going to be the "Safety Patrol" of the Legions and the Emperor just didn't go against it and perhaps even encouraged it or the Emperor appointed Russ but without any pomp and circumstance leavig the occasion itself rather vague and the existence of happening left to much speculation.

[DarthMarko]

Even more funny is that we need authors to tell us "after reading" what was the point of the story :-)

I mean, they imply, suggest and tease you with some theory, you bite (little harder), and then you are dumb for misunderstanding the moral story...Ok...

Fans are fans...but authors and marketing are not innocent, also...

Look, was there any talk of Ultramarines killing lost legions, just because one Word Bearer mentioned they absorbed them?

 

Sometimes people get it, sometimes just jump to the conclusion, noone is stupid or dumb, misunderstanding can happen to everyone.

 

We should be thankful that AD-B is willing to discuss such things and that he is patient enough to explain it to us.

I'm thankful, but I' have my opinion you know...Somebody can tell me "his way" of thinking, I will respect that, but my general stance about teasers and mystery circles from the BL stands...

IMHO @Beef said it well...Also if I respect a man I will tell him my honest opinion...I have right to do that?

 

You really think they get their psychic powers from Fenris ? Ever considered you may be self deluted a little bit ?

With this OFC they are deluded, bigger question is their role as a sanction force...

[Legatus]

Look, was there any talk of Ultramarines killing lost legions, just because one Word Bearer mentioned they absorbed them?

There was definitely talk of the Ultramarines only getting to where they were at the end of the Crusade because they got a huge boost in strength.

 

The difference between the Space Wolves bit and the Ultramarines bit is that the Space Wolves came out looking like super badasses who can kill every other Legion, while the Ultramarines came out looking like tools who needed help to achieve anything.

 

I am not a fan of the "executioners" spin. Probably famously (infamously?) so. The way it was presented in Dan Abnett's trailer video and in the novel itself ("the Space Wolves are the worst/most brutal of them all") sorely undermines the status of the World Eaters and the Night Lords. Plus, Abnett himself had professed that he was not a big fan of the original Space Wolves theme, which does not exactly make his decision to change them from the "people's heroes" they used to be into the "most unhinged and brutal Legion" easier to get behind. But at least it made them look like super badasses (at the cost of the WE and NL), so it is not surprising that there was less resistance from the die hard Space Wolves fans than would have been expected for such a drastic change of their tone.

 

(For the record, I have about 1500 points of Space Wolves since 2nd/3rd Edition, but of course my overall favourite Chapter is a different one.)

[DarthMarko]

Look, was there any talk of Ultramarines killing lost legions, just because one Word Bearer mentioned they absorbed them?

There was definitely talk of the Ultramarines only getting to where they were at the end of the Crusade because they got a huge boost in strength.

 

The difference between the Space Wolves bit and the Ultramarines bit is that the Space Wolves came out looking like super badasses who can kill every other Legion, while the Ultramarines came out looking like tools who needed help to achieve anything.

 

I am not a fan of the "executioners" spin. Probably famously (infamously?) so. The way it was presented in Dan Abnett's trailer video and in the novel itself ("the Space Wolves are the worst/most brutal of them all") sorely undermines the status of the World Eaters and the Night Lords. Plus, Abnett himself had professed that he was not a big fan of the original Space Wolves theme, which does not exactly make his decision to change them from the "people's heroes" they used to be into the "most unhinged and brutal Legion" easier to get behind. But at least it made them look like super badasses (at the cost of the WE and NL), so it is not surprising that there was less resistance from the die hard Space Wolves fans than would have been expected for such a drastic change of their tone.

 

(For the record, I have about 1500 points of Space Wolves since 2nd/3rd Edition, but of course my overall favourite Chapter is a different one.)

Ask any BA, BT. FT fan what they think about their legion worst/most brutal status...

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, one could argue that it makes the WE and NL look better because they don't need leashes to be who they are.

[DarthMarko]

Actually, one could argue that it makes the WE and NL look better because they don't need leashes to be who they are.

This also,TY ALLFATHER!!!

And freaking sadistic IW + sadomasochistic EC (or not) are also in the equation.....

[hendrik]

well to be honest, the exact quote from the prospero burns trailer is as followed:

 

space marines are inherently though, but space wolves are particulary dangerous. they are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. it begs the question why would the emperor something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? and that would be to take down another legion.

 

while this surely is propaganda, ment to increase sales, however to me, combined with the actual storyline makes it quite clear the wolves are executioners. wether this title is self apointed or not in an entire different matter but the written (and spoken) facts remain the same.

now nowhere in the trailer of prospero burn dan mentions the space wolves to be more brutal then the world eaters, or more terryfying then the night lords. he simply describes them as a particulary dangerous legion.

It is my believe that it is not their savage nature, their ruthless methods or brutal combat skills that makes them particulary dangerous, but rather their loyalty to the emperor, and with it, the blindly obeying of commands. this believe gets in my opinion a bit confirmed by the quote of Khârn:

 

"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

sure this contradicts the "untamed" space wolves dan describes in the trailer, but look at some other facts. Russ, while clearly a barbarian brute to an outsider , is actually hinted on of taking on this role towards outsiders, and shown to be much more then a simple barbarian. It also show that the wolves themself are not such free spirits as a wolf is, but rather are well trained attack dogs, trained to obey any command without questions. to me this is what makes the wolves so dangerous.*

 

another interesting way to look at it why the wolves ar eso dangerous is actually the original topics question, "the flaw" known as the curse of the wulfen. in wolf's honour it is mentioned that the curse of the wulfen is some sort of fail-safe system against chaos, and that instead of becoming corrupted, the space wolf will "simply" turn into a wulfen, a "brainless" predator. Up untill the mentioning of some bloodclaws joining huron's fleet of pirates this theory made sense, since as far as i'm aware no other space wolf has been mentioned to fall to chaos (besides the ill-fated wolf brothers, who did not recruit from fenris and as such, might not have the "curse of the wulfen" amongst their mids.)

Questions,questions,questions, oh how i would love to be able to read all those black library writers their minds!

 

 

*note: without the help of the custodians but especially the sisters of silence and magnus hiding the approach of the wolves, prospero would never have been such a "succes" and casualty rates would have been far higher on the wolves' side.

[Legatus]

It is my believe that it is not their savage nature, their ruthless methods or brutal combat skills that makes them particulary dangerous, but rather their loyalty to the emperor, and with it, the blindly obeying of commands.

Ugh. Just threw up a little bit in my mouth. So, are you suggesting that when the World Eaters are given the order to wipe something out, they might not do it? They might refuse to tear a world apart? Or are you suggesting that the Space Wolves are more dangerous because they will heed when they are told to stop?

 

Of course a Legion that is disciplined would be generally preferred. But in what way would such a Legion be more dangerous to a potential opponent than a Legion of bloodthirsty murderers who may or may not stop butchering the last survivors when their Captains call them back?

 

A D-B's little bit about the World Eaters does not really help. "We could never be trusted." That does not sound like something a Great Crusade Veteran would say about his Legion, at a point in time when that Legion was perhaps still loyal. Especially considering that Angron's original motivation to turn was because he genuinely thought he and the World Eaters would be mankinds only hope. (But I guess that is not going to be the case in the Horus Heresy continuity, then?) But then A D-B was somewhat forced by what Dan Abnett had spun together. Sorting out that mess is not the most thankful of jobs.

[hendrik]

well perhaps not the world eaters (but let's admit it, they had trust issues with the emperor) but what about the other legions. don't you think sanguinius, dorn or any other primarch would ask "why" or at the very least be somewhat hesitant?? in a family, wouldn't most family members ask "why" they would need to kill them if their grandfather tells them to? remember we're still in a time period where brother VS brother was "unheard" of, and almost unthinkable to happen by most.

kharns quote is clear that the wolves obey, when the worldeaters would not. I'm not saying the worldeaters wouldn't wipe something out when given the order, or refuse to tear something apart as you put it. i'm talking about their loyalty as their primary strength above others. the emperor (somehow) "knows" that the wolves will never turn on him and therefor they are amongst his most trusted weapons. surely the world eaters are more powerfull/just as powerfull if unleashed, but what prevents the world eater from turning against the emperor? loyalty? it's quite clear angron and the emperor never really connected well....

 

think of it this way, do you want an unstopable army led by a psychopatic mellee monster, or do you want one led by a ruthless beast that will stay loyal no matter what?

[Legatus]

Of course loyalty is a very desirable trait in a subordinate Legion. But loyalty makes them "dependable", not more "dangerous" to their opposition.

 

"the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous", those were Abnett's words (though perhaps we should listen to A D-B's suggestion and not focus on that "trailer" talk too much). Dangerous to whom? To an enemy of the Imperium? Why would the Space Wolves be more dangerous to them than any other Legion? The reasons that are given in the trailer are of course their brutality and savagery, but that was not your take on it. You pointed towards their loyalty instead (even though the trailer doesn't). But why would that make the Space Wolves any more dangerous to a heretical tyrant or a xenos civilisation?

Or are they more dangerous to the other Legions? But why would any of the Legions be referred to as "most dangerous to the other Legions" at a time wher they were still all considered loyal?

 

Now, despite my constant objection to the Space Wolves' "executioner" status, I actually do think of the Space Wolves as one of the strongest Space Marine Legions. Even though A D-B is trying to disperse that kind of thinking. To me, they are "professionally passionate" about fighting, similar to the vikings. It is their way of life, and their way to a glorious afterlife. There are a lot of Legions for whom it is simply their duty, or who may be very determined and professional about it, but lacking the "spirit". The Space Wolves take it very serious, but they also somewhat enjoy it. As far as raw fighting prowess is concerned, I would rank them among the top 5 Legions. Perhaps even among the top 3. But not as the "most brutal" and not as appointed executioners only allowed to exist to eventually "take down another Legion".