10 wolf guard termies, why doesnt every army take some?

[irwit]

Hi all

 

Just comparing codexs and wondering why a 10 man wolf guard in termie armour and no other upgrades isn't standard in most lists? I mean 330 points youre getting 10 storm bolters, mix of power swords and axes to suit, 2+ save and counter attack. This has to be one of the best bang for buck units of any marine codex?

 

I know they get way too expensive when you upgrade to power fists, assault cannons, etc so just don't upgrade. 10 man unit marches to mid field and blasts away with storm bolters but can more than hold their own in combat.

 

Or is there something I'm not seeing here? Lol.

[Thunder_god]

I like the logic here. When. Get them built, I might have to try it.

[Russ Brother 92]

I do like the logic but I'm thinking that 2 full GH packs it's cutting out and I normally go GH/LF heavy - 3 packs of Fangs and 2-4 packs of Hunters, as my local only does 1750pts max unless playing apoc. it's hard to fit more than 5 termies into the list.

[Meatcaber]

Already got 10 strong WG planned for my 2,000 point army.

 

Am taking a few upgrades, though, namely 2 AC, a couple of combi's and a few other cheap upgrades to spruce the unit up some.

 

Also taking a WP to make 'em outflank and give them Preferred Enemy.

 

And, the fact I got 10 Terminators from Ebay for £10.25 today makes me more than certain to field the unit :wacko:

 

330 points isn't a lot for what you get, just adding in a few cheap upgrades can only make the unit even better!

[greysquigg]

Yeah..

 

..

 

 

Thats a steal for 10 terminators...

 

 

 

...

 

 

Yeah I'll do that!

 

 

GS

[dswanick]

That's actually a project I've had on the back burner since late 5th Edition - I have 30 WGTDA base coated with magnetized arms, I just need to get some color on them.

[Panzerbjørn]

It's all down to how well they synergise with your list and what else you want to take...

 

Sure, they would be brutal, but sustained fire kills even termies and without a transport, they're slow.

 

But yes, they are hard to kill, certainly.

[greysquigg]

Deep Strike? This might be extremely viable for a unit this size.

 

 

Would certainly work for my list!

 

 

GS

[dswanick]

Deep Strike? This might be extremely viable for a unit this size.

Except WGTDA don't Deep Strike. The only way to transport a 10-man WGTDA pack is a Storm Eagle.

[WG Vrox]

agreed,

 

I believe the secret to it's success is the power axe. For 33 points and varied power weapons such as 5 PA and 4 PW, 1 WC/CF and 2 CML/SB/PW. Very nasty 10 man unit for 410. This is as bare bones as I like to go.

 

In addition if you want to divide the 2 units and put them into 2 DPs making sure they both come in on turn 1, I find 2 CM/PW 2 SB/PA and 1 HF/WC/MB for 225 is a nice unit.

[Brom MKIV]

While I love terminators (have half a full company myself) and 10 for 330 is a bargain as termies go, id much rather pay a little extra for a few upgrades. Hell even if its *only* two heavy flamers. Stormbolter fire is good but there are more efficient anti infantry options in scoring grey hunters. For example 20 GHs with 4 plasma guns is 320 pts. Same bolter fire at >12" plus 4 plas shots and twice the bolter fire at <12" plus 8 plas shots plus twice the bodies and able to target 2 units etc. Not saying the unit isnt good, just that theres really not a good reason not to find 60 pts for some ass kicking asscans some combi weapons and even a chainfist too man.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Everyone doesn't do it because one bad turn of rolling can cost you the whole unit. A Doom or a Misfortune can get them tormented down, especially in a world where IG blobs are becoming more common. 40 lasguns, 5 las pistols, and 5 plasma guns is about the same price and will tear it apart if you don't have extra hot dice.

 

Admittedly, if you do have hot dice, they are an unholy terror, but the high cost per wound makes them a gamble. It also doesn't help that you have to walk them across the table. Two groups of five work better since you can pod them both, split up your fire, assault two units without the multiassault penalty, get two chances to make your assault ranges, and can't lose all 10 to a torrent unit.

 

I still love the 500 point block with two cyclones and a bunch of chainfists and storm shields since it is cool, but is a long way from point efficient.

[irwit]

Cheers for all the feedback guys, definitely a big help in deciding what to do with this idea.

 

It came from a GK thread about the "ideal" 1500pt army and although there was some arguing, there was no arguing about when you take termies, you take them in squads of 10. You march them up to mid field and lets the storm bolters do the damage but can still cause damage in cc too. The only issue is the points as you are talking over 450 points for the gk standard load out. Even for other codexs you are talking at least 400. So the fact we can do it with arguably better weapons, ie, can have some swords so the entire unit doesn't strike last but still have axes for higher strength, 2+ damage, seems a bit of a steal really.

 

I know people like to load them out but I think 30pts for assault cannon, extra 10 for a fist etc, makes SW termies not worth the points.

 

Also think of the amount of firepower this unit will attract on its way up to mid field. I guess you could push it up to 395 as have a couple of cyclones and do some serious damage you your way there but I think once you go over 400 points, you are better with allies for a TDA blob. Deathwing are cheaper/more flexible with DS, BAs can come witha priest for FnP durability and GKs, well everyone knows what these guys bring. So the only reason really to take SW TDA is to undercut to competition.

 

Also, the points about how many GHs you would "lose". You are getting half the wounds but far more than double the survivability and the damage you can output in combat is massive in comparison.

[WG Vrox]

I know people like to load them out but I think 30pts for assault cannon, extra 10 for a fist etc, makes SW termies not worth the points.

 

The trade off for 90 points to add a chainfist and 2 CML is arguably an expensive addition on paper, but when your in the game and rolling not only the 4 SB shots from the models but also 4 missile shots you will not be thinking about the points, you'll just be smiling about the destructing your wreaking.

 

However for the sake of debate lets consider an average of three shots per game, for my unit it works out to be about 5 points a missile. if we compare that to one of the better deals in the game, a Long Fang who will give you a cost of 3.3 points for 3 shots, its not that bad of a deal. The down side of the deal is you have 63 points into a 1 wound model instead of 50 points into 2 Long Fangs and 2 wounds. The only way I can justify the cost is the amount of protection you get from being able to "hide" the unit amongst 9 other 2+ 5+ models.

 

The chainfist is insurance to keep your opponent from sending in a dread or the like to tie up the unit in a long winded CC session. ie If I saw a 330 point unit with only axes I would have no problem assaulting my dread into that unit with them rolling 4s to hit and 6s to glace.

 

A simplistic approach to validating the upgrade costs for sure and for sure there are many other factors to consider but it a good place to start.

 

Vrox.

[irwit]

To be honest that's a pretty good way of explaining the "worth" of the upgrades.

 

The missiles, I think if those LFs were moving a firing and could still shoot a storm bolter then fair do's. Also those long fangs, the first or second model to go will most likely be a missile launcher carrier. The termie squad they should in theory be the last models to leave a far more resilient unit that will be sat in the middle of the table.

 

The chainfist, I guess for 15 points its ok and stops people tar pitting you with a dread.

 

So lets say you are buildinga 1k or 1.5k list based around 10 TDA wolf guard. What would you do?

 

At 1k I was thinking,

 

1 x RP

2 x 10 GH, plasma

10x TDA WG 2 x cyclone

5 x LFs missles.

 

80pts left over to add some spice. Gives you 4 x plasma, 8 x missles with potential re-rolls. Plan would be to push up to mid board and blast with lots of firepower.

[Russ Brother 92]

My problem is that (and this is more due my own playstyle) I'm a very defensive/counter-attack player - make my enemy come to me, pile shots into them as they get close, then when they charge in pop my banner/s and watch the slaughter as suddenly 20 Attacks becomes 30 with re-rolls :tu:

 

For instance my 1500-1750pts army contains a minimum of 3 10 Man GH packs AND 3 6 Man LF packs, then I add the other bits (all tailored to suit this core) generally at least 1 RP, atm I'm trialling a WP/SoTH set-up and some TDAWG for each unit, otherwise I run a coupla pods (3-4) 1 for Termies with Lord and 2-3 for GHs.

[skeletoro]

This thread needs some more math, I think.

 

How is 10 storm bolters for 330 points a good deal?330 points will buy you 22 grey hunter bolters. That's 110% the firepower at 24" and 220% (!!) the firepower at 12".

 

How is 33 points for a T4, 2+/5++ a good deal next to 15 points for T4, 3+? There's not a lot in it. Against AP3, the terminator model is more durable (for the points cost). Against anything else, the simple grey hunter is.

 

I love me some wolf guard but I think the combi-weapon is the secret to their effectiveness.

[irwit]

10 power weapons?

 

Half the number of AP6,5 or 4 cause a wound, 2+ vs 3+. So on that point you have almost equal wounds.

 

VS ap3 its no contest.

 

5++ so 1 in 3 plasma or other kind ignored. SO GH come out on top but not by double.

 

Also in combat TDA is vastly more survivable with power weapons being AP3. They also out put total death with a mix of axes and swords.

 

If we are directly comparing then 10 WG in TDA vs 20 GHs with bolters, Im pretty sure the TDA would easily come out on top.

 

I'm not saying they are better or worse but I think they are definitely an option worth looking at if you are not into spamming lists and having a mass of LFs and GHs with plasma.

[skeletoro]

Don't get me wrong, they're good. It's just that they're not particularly great as a long ranged shooting unit. They're ranged/melee all-rounders, I think. This is part because of their power weapons and part because they have relentless (being able to rapid fire and charge, especially with plasma, is a big advantage).

 

You're right about power weapons being good. That said, grey hunters have over twice the attacks (for the points cost). I think against 3+ or better, TDA WG with power swords edge out grey hunters, for the points cost (against 4+ it's a very slight advantage to GH, which widens as the target's save worsens). Of course, you should take axes on your TDA WG. With axes the comparison is more favourable to the termies, but a little more complicated as they are attacking at i1.

 

And I agree that TDA is amazing in melee. In melee, you have much more freedom to choose which attacks affect which of your units. And AP3 is very common.

 

(I didn't say that the TDA WG is half as durable as a grey hunter btw!)

 

You can't really say if TDA WG or GH are better, because it's comparing apples and oranges.

[irwit]

Well the idea for them is to control centre board, get peoples attention and let my GH packs get into plasma range a little less unscathed.

 

The only other unit I have thought of for this was ba allies termies with priest for fnp. But all those extra points I don't think justify the fnp save.

[Grey Mage]

The reason I dont do it?

 

The amount of artillery and plasma on the board makes those 2+s in to 5+s really quick. Are people finding that artillery just isnt that scary in their neck of the woods? Because three Executioners isnt uncommon in guard armies around here.

[irwit]

What exactly are those executioners like? I'm guessing a variant of the leman Russ?

[Jarl Deathwolf]

The reason I dont do it?

 

The amount of artillery and plasma on the board makes those 2+s in to 5+s really quick. Are people finding that artillery just isnt that scary in their neck of the woods? Because three Executioners isnt uncommon in guard armies around here.

 

This. I regularly face down Chaos Marines who boast one or two squads with 4 plasma guns each. I feel like if I tried this against one of my Chaos enemies, it would end up a game of tag between my T-DAWG and his plasma gunners. A game wherein he is It and there is no base. Hardly the stuff of legends!

 

I like the idea of 10 T-DAWG running around spitting in the face of most enemy fire, but it just takes the right few weapons at the right place to completely wipe this unit off the board in a round of shooting. The same problem goes with the Grey Hunters, but at least you will have twice as many for the same price.

 

EDIT: A Leman Russ Executioner is a Leman Russ with a 36" range plasma cannon that is a blast with Heavy 3. I fielded it as an ally and massacred entire squads of Chaos Marines. It is fun to use, sucks to fights.

[irwit]

But surely that just gives you obvious target priority? If you have cyclones them that's 4 krak missles a turn at much longer range? Rerolls if you are rolling up with the rp.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

But surely that just gives you obvious target priority? If you have cyclones them that's 4 krak missles a turn at much longer range? Rerolls if you are rolling up with the rp.

 

I was running off the assumption of just plain 10 WG TDA. But even if you do fire like that, the Leman Russ has a front armor of 13(?Maybe 14?). You'd need to roll well to take out all its HP. As for my old foes the Chaos Marines, they often have a Chaos Lord or Abby himself at the front in TDA for just such an occasion. AP3 may work against standard troopers, but not against TDA.

 

Granted, in most other situations 2 CML would work wonderfully for killing pesky AP2 foes. You just need to remember that 2+ can bleed just like everyone else.