10 wolf guard termies, why doesnt every army take some?

[skeletoro]

Yeah, I think that much of the time, having a tdawgpl more than makes up the loss of a second plasma.

 

Usually, grey hunters earn their keep by rapid firing whilst simultaneously being a relatively expensive unit to assault. Conversely, they do well rapid firing, but any unit that out-shoots them within 12" is likely to fold when charged.

 

Losing a plasma gun does hurt. But really, a combi-plasma is often almost as good as a full plasma gun. It's pretty common for a unit of grey hunters to only meaningly benefit from their plasma guns for 1 or 2 shooting phases. Time is spent slogging, in transports, or waiting to come on from reserve. Not to mention time spent at 12-24", time stuck in melee, or rounds that occur after the unit (or more specifically, the model with the plasma gun) has been wiped out. Combi weapons are good, because typically they get used when most needed (earlier in the combat). They're especially good when used with transports because they'll definitely get unleashed within 12" (and if you're slogging, you can have your cake and eat it). I don't think you're losing a LOT by taking a pl rather than a free plasma.

 

On the other hand, gaining a tooled out pack leader helps in other regards. Leadership 9 is extremely good, because of counterattack. Access to cheap power weapons offsets the cost of the pack leader (and missing out on a free plasma), and access to 5 point TDA helps quite a lot too (you would have bought the 10 point power weapon anyway, right?)

 

So, perhaps they lose a little bit in terms of ranged firepower (not as much as you might think), but they gain a whole lot of stuff that's always going to be of great value to any grey hunter pack.

 

Regarding the post right above this one, Russ Brother, wouldn't a plasma + combi plasma (or melta plus combi melta) do that just just as well? And you'd have a TDA model with nice cheap power axe, and better leadership, so if your enemies retaliate by charging, you're all set.

[Russ Brother 92]

fair point although personally I'd run my TDAWG with a Power Sword/Combi and have an Axe in the unit - then he can't challenge out my hardest hitting guy AND the PL has the ability to kill most challengers before they strike.

 

I am using TDAPLs a lot atm. in fact I'm using one for every GH pack in my footslogging list, although with that I also have 10 men, a power axe, standard and two specials - so I get the best of both worlds haha

[skeletoro]

Very little is going to hard counter a TDAWG with power axe. You might not choose to challenge a PArm seargeant with PF, but if he challenges you, your odds aren't too bad. Sure, he has a fist, but you have a 5+ invulnerable save. You could happily accept that challenge rather than sit out the combat (and let him fist your friends). Unless you're faced with a melee-oriented IC (in which case, you may want to challenge even if it means dying, simply to waste the IC's turn) or a sergeant with a storm shield, you'll generally defeat everything very handily, and at worst tie.

 

TDA + power sword fares not much better against most foes. You're more likely to survive if your opponent has AP3, but the converse is also true - you simply lack the power to take down anything with a 2+ save. Against sergeants with power swords, for instance, you're doing worse - they're not going to hurt you anyway, but you're less likely to hurt them with a sword because an axe has +1 strength. Against characters with TDA or artificer armour, you lack the ability to do any damage. If they have AP3, it'll be a stalemate, and if they have AP2, you're going to die and will probably have to turn down the challenge (leaving the character to run rampant on your packmates).

 

Reading these forums, I get the impression that the meta is often going to involve lots of sergeants with power swords, and very few sergeants with power fists. The logic goes: everyone ELSE is packing power swords, so taking a fist is just suicide. Fair enough. But the upshot of that is that there aren't likely to be many sergeants (or other cheap characters) with fists. It's my opinion that giving your TDA WG PL axes could really capitalize on that. Of course, it's meta dependent, and if everyone else is taking nothing but power armoured sergeants with fists, then sure, go for swords.

 

In short, here's how the comparison looks:

Opponent has:

1) power armour + sword: Both TDA variants do well, but TDA + axe is only marginally more likely to die, but is a fair bit more likely to successfully kill his opponent. TIE (but I'd lean towards axe)

2) power armour + fist: TDA + sword is a fair bit less likely to kill, but is much less likely to die. SWORD

3) TDA + sword: TDA + axe is only marginally more likely to die, but is much more likely to successfully kill his opponent. AXE

4) TDA + axe: TDA + axe is very slightly more likely to die, but only slightly, because chances are TDA + sword won't kill his opponent (while axe likely would). AXE

 

If the meta suggested by these boards is correct, the one situation where the sword has a notable advantage for TDAWGPL is also the fairly uncommon one. And even in that situation, the axe model does OK.

 

I can see the logic for taking swords on power armoured sergeants/pack leaders. But that exact same reason speaks towards giving TDA WGPLs axes. IMO.

[frostclaw222]

The last time I ran a pack of WGTDA was in 3rd or early 4th, so I can't say for that, but presently, when kitting the WGTDAPL, I prefer power swords or wolf claws, and making the GH cc special a fist. Here's why.

 

1) As mentioned previously, challenges. You don't want your guy swinging last.

2) GH can still have a hidden fist. No challenging it into single combat and preventing it from striking to full effect.

3) Diversification of threat. Having the fist on a GH and a power weapon on the WGPL prevents all your eggs from being in one basket.

 

That being said, I've taken the new power weapon rules to heart, and all my GH squads mount all options of power weapon. Yes, including mauls and spears. In theory, if I know the type of force I'm going to be facing in a battle, I can tool up for maximum melee advantage. Now, I won't always know, but having the flexibility helps.

 

All that being said, I'm now wondering about power mauls and their "stun" capability. Has anyone thought about using them? I realize the AP loss is a wet blanket, but reducing a hard target to I 1 and then following it up with a fist or other heavy shot the next round might be worth considering, although I wonder how often it'd go off.

[irwit]

In terms of axe or sword, I think I would take a sword. I wouldn't want my ghs in charge range of anything that would need ap2. So although I'd lose +1s I'd prefer to not strike last or same time as a potential power armour with power fist and with most probably 3 attacks that should be enough to cause a wound and therefore kill.

[skeletoro]

It seems everybody is thinking that.

 

If so, nobody will be taking power fists on their power armoured sergeants.

 

And that would mean you're unnecessarily purchasing swords for your TDA WGPLs...

 

Also, if you're able to prevent yourself being in charge range of something requiring AP2, can't you just pull the same trick to avoid being in charge range of units with fist characters?

 

Lastly, who has 3 power fist attacks? Are you assuming that they have the charge?

[irwit]

Well my point is more that anything I would need ap2 for I would be avoiding with a GH squad. So ap2 or ap3 is no difference. That's leaves who is striking first which i4 isn't exactly low so may as well use it. I'll be striking before anything ap2 and if its 1 wound I'll most likely kill it. So if I'm facing a fist or sword in combat gods be good I will be OK, and all for 33 points :lol:

 

I do see your logic with the axe but you much less likely to die if you are striking before your opponent than after.

 

3 attacks was from my wgpl. I didn't word the lasst reply very well, sorry.

[skeletoro]

Pitting a sword+ power armour WGPL against a TDA WGPL in a challenge:

 

sword guy:

Hit: 1/2

Wound: 1/2

Fail save: 1/6

Chance for an attack to fail to wound: 23/24.

Number of attacks: 3

Chance for all attacks to fail to wound: (23/24)^3 = 88% (so 12% chance to kill)

 

TDA sword guy:

Hit: 1/2

Wound: 1/2

Fail save: 1

Chance for an attack to fail to wound: 3/4.

Number of attacks: 2

Chance for all attacks to fail to wound: (3/4)^2 = 56% (so 44% chance to kill).

 

TDA axe guy:

Hit: 1/2

Wound: 2/3

Fail save: 1

Chance for an attack to fail to wound: 4/6.

Number of attacks: 2

Chance for all attacks to fail to wound: (4/6)^2 = 44% (so 56% chance to kill).

If you're dead, you can't attack. Adjusted chance to kill = 56% * 88% = 49%.

 

In conclusion, against a basic marine sergeant with a power sword, a TDAWGPL with axe dies the same amount, but is slightly more likely to kill, even after taking into account the chance of being killed before striking.

 

___

 

Against a sergeant with power fist:

 

fist guy

 

Hit: 1/2

Wound: 5/6

Fail save: 2/3

Chance for attack to fail to wound: 26/36.

Number of attacks: 2.

Chance for all attacks to fail to wound: (26/36)^2 = 52% (so, WG termy guy will die 48% of the time).

Adjustment based on chance of being killed by WGPL /w sword = 48% * 56% = 27%

 

So, the WGPL with TDA and axe will kill the power fist guy 56% of the time, and will die 48% of the time. The WGPL has the advantage, but it's not huge.

 

The WGPL with TDA and sword will kill the power fist guy 44% of the time, but will die only 27% of the time. So the WGPL has a decent advantage.

 

____

 

Against a WGPL with TDA and power axe:

 

TDA axe guy

hit: 1/2

wound: 2/3

fail save: 2/3

chance to fail to wound: 14/18

Attacks: 2

chance for all attacks to fail to wound: (14/18)^2= 60% (so, 40% chance to kill).

Adjusted for being killed by sword guy: 40% * 92% = 37%

 

TDA sword guy

hit: 1/2

wound: 1/2

fail save: 1/6

Chance to fail to wound: 23/24

Attacks: 2

Chance all attacks fail: (23/24)^2 = 92% (so 8% chance to kill).

 

So, the two TDA axe models both have a decent chance of killing each other (40%). However, the TDA sword guy is extremely unlikely to beat the TDA axe guy.

 

___

 

So, yeah. There's not actually a whole lot of difference between TDA sword and TDA axe - unless you fight terminators, in which case the model with the sword is screwed.

 

And if the power armour + sword combi is much more likely than the pwoer armour + fist combo, then really, you should be taking the axe anyway, because it does better relative to the sword in that context.

 

And any time you don't fight a challenge, the axe is likely to be better.

[irwit]

But if you are vs a fist, wouldn't you be striking at the same time and therefore there's a chance you will get pummled, where as if you have a sword you can definitely strike first and most likely get a kill vs 3+ ?

[skeletoro]

The maths above already takes that into account. Both TDA + axe and TDA + sword have the advantage against PA + fist.

 

As said above, the TDA + sword guy is less likely to kill the fist than the TDA + axe guy (44% vs 56% respectively) because axes have +1 str. However, the fist guy is less likely to kill the TDA sword guy (27% vs 48%) because if the sword guy kills the fist, the fist doesn't get to strike back.

 

Both TDA power weapon loadouts have the advantage against power armour + fist (and come 5 points cheaper, at least at SW codex prices). The sword guy wins by a larger margin, but a stalemate is slightly more likely too.

 

If you were sure that every assault would have a challenge against a power armour + fist sergeant, then I'd say sure, go for swords, as they are arguably slightly better than axes in this context. But axes are better in pretty much every other context, including vs. power armour + sword, and ANY TDA loadout.

[irwit]

Hmm, ok then I'm sold! Cheers for the very thorough explanation there and apologies for me beinga little slow on taking it all in.

 

Ive also found another serious advantage of axe over sword on a tdaWG, its looks so much cooler !!!

[skeletoro]

Hehe, no worries. And yeah, axes do look awesome.

 

In a pack of WG (rather than a single WGPL) I think it can definitely be worthwhile to put a sword on one model. When you're fighting squad to squad, there's a decent chance you'll lose one model (maybe more) to enemies' attacks before you get your turn to swing, unless you vastly outclass your opponents (in which case, the choice probably doesn't matter). So you may as well give one guy (maybe a couple?) a sword and let him die first.

 

After writing all that above, I have kinda started wondering whether it's better to upgrade TDA WGPL's axe to a fist. For starters, it puts the insta-death fear in enemy ICs. At 48 points, you stand a decent chance of killing many 100 point characters in a challenge (and even if they kill you back, that's a great trade for you), and some might even rationally decline a duel on such terms (which means you've completely negated their attacks for a turn, which is quite nice!) You'd be able to handily defeat pretty much any other sergeant (the only superior TDA WGPL combos would be WC+PF and SS+PF, which I wouldn't expect to see a lot of, personally), too. Leaving duels aside, you are much easier to protect in a pack, as you can use both positioning and the 4+ Look Out, Sir! roll to divert attacks away. And you only cost 3 points more than a grey hunter with a fist.

[irwit]

Hehe, no worries. And yeah, axes do look awesome.

 

In a pack of WG (rather than a single WGPL) I think it can definitely be worthwhile to put a sword on one model. When you're fighting squad to squad, there's a decent chance you'll lose one model (maybe more) to enemies' attacks before you get your turn to swing, unless you vastly outclass your opponents (in which case, the choice probably doesn't matter). So you may as well give one guy (maybe a couple?) a sword and let him die first.

 

After writing all that above, I have kinda started wondering whether it's better to upgrade TDA WGPL's axe to a fist. For starters, it puts the insta-death fear in enemy ICs. At 48 points, you stand a decent chance of killing many 100 point characters in a challenge (and even if they kill you back, that's a great trade for you), and some might even rationally decline a duel on such terms (which means you've completely negated their attacks for a turn, which is quite nice!) You'd be able to handily defeat pretty much any other sergeant (the only superior TDA WGPL combos would be WC+PF and SS+PF, which I wouldn't expect to see a lot of, personally), too. Leaving duels aside, you are much easier to protect in a pack, as you can use both positioning and the 4+ Look Out, Sir! roll to divert attacks away. And you only cost 3 points more than a grey hunter with a fist.

 

I guess it is still a cheap character that's tough to kill and can cause lots of damage. 48 points is just getting a bit steep but I'm a cheap skate when it comes to lists. Another 5 points gets you a whole extra grey hunter with a wound, 3+ save and 3 attacks plus a bolter.

 

I've put a 1k list tighter in army section based on our chats in here so let me know what you think.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=268547

[greysquigg]

I find with TDAWG are a bit of an all or nothing unit.

 

I run mine with 4x double wolf claws and a single THSS and it works a treat!

 

It's one of those unit's which need to be specialised to make work in my opinion. Those wolf claws will give you a bit of wiggle room on the above average toughness characters, and the thunder hammer will eat most things.

 

 

GS

[irwit]

What price does that come out at though? Just seems like its not taking ad vantage of the cheapest tea unit in the game that is still very powerful and has the option to strike first if it wanted to.

[Russ Brother 92]

5 TDAWG w/ 4 twin WCs and 1 TH/SS = 255pts - so not too bad for the punch it can deliver :cuss

[skeletoro]

I find with TDAWG are a bit of an all or nothing unit.

 

I run mine with 4x double wolf claws and a single THSS and it works a treat!

 

It's one of those unit's which need to be specialised to make work in my opinion. Those wolf claws will give you a bit of wiggle room on the above average toughness characters, and the thunder hammer will eat most things.

 

 

GS

 

Those loadouts aren't really cost effective for space wolves. Especially the double wolf claws - wolf claw + power fist is the exact same cost, gets the extra attack with the wolf claw, but can turn those 3/4 attacks into power fist attacks instead if you wish.

 

Similarly, for the price of 1 TH+SS TDAWG, you can almost get 2 vanilla TDAWG with storm bolters. Collectively, they are significantly more durable and against anything other than independent characters and heavy vehicles, they're more deadly.

[greysquigg]

So thats 12 ap3 attacks with re rolls and 3 TH attacks.

 

Really kicks arse! I'll run them in a redeemer and either outflank with a WGBL or I'll just run them up the weak side.

 

These guys and TWC work really nicely together. You can just hide the TWC behind the redeemer and plough them into the fleshy parts!!

 

 

 

All this cost effectiveness is a massive none issue for a space wolves player if they know how to use their force properly.

At 255 pts for a unit that will eat a tactical squad or a raider or your opponents HQ in one turn I think they are massively worth it.

 

If you diversify your TDAWG they just get shot to pieces by a tactical squad. You want them to be in the enemies face for 1-2 turns otherwise thats only 5 wounds you've got there. Spend the rest of the time inside a trasport.

 

I often feel like allot of people don't really look at the bigger picture and are more worried about something being cheap. Especially when it comes to TWC or TDAWG.

Sometimes it's more about the quality of your unit's than the quantity you can put on the board.

 

 

GS

[dswanick]

All this cost effectiveness is a massive none issue for a space wolves player if they know how to use their force properly.

Unless, of course, you get the exact same unit for 200pts by allying in C:SM Assault Termies.

[greysquigg]

But you don't get counter charge with that.

 

Nor can you split them off into your grey hunter packs at the beginning of the battle.

 

Or the option to get arjac.

 

You have to use one of your HQ slots and a troop choice slot to get a unit that won't synergies well with what we already have on the board.

 

You have to start altering tactics that work in order to keep a unit alive.

 

You could go for a sorcerer, but why would you when you could have a rune priest?

[irwit]

Agree with comments, if you are tooling up WG tda unit you may as well ally in some grey knights, deathewing or regular marines.

 

Your 5 vs 8 standard wgtda with power axe, I'd take the unit of 8 that can still shoot and packs ap2 strength 5 and has 3 more wounds.

[greysquigg]

Well yeah, there is that. At WS5 for the same cost. Pretty awesome unit.

 

Would feel like I'm betraying the Fang a bit by allying with those shiny guys!

 

But hey, my WG work well for me.

 

 

GS

[greysquigg]

Well yeah, there is that. At WS5 for the same cost. Pretty awesome unit.

 

Would feel like I'm betraying the Fang a bit by allying with those shiny guys!

 

But hey, my WG work well for me.

 

 

GS

[dswanick]

But you don't get counter charge with that.

Nope. Instead you get Combat Tactics and Deep Strike.

Nor can you split them off into your grey hunter packs at the beginning of the battle.

 

Or the option to get arjac.

Then you're not talking about the cost-effectiveness of a 5-man TDA unit with 4X LCs/TH & SS.

You have to use one of your HQ slots and a troop choice slot to get a unit that won't synergies well with what we already have on the board.

Or, you've already taken a HQ and a 5-man Sniper scout squad (for the Objective Scoring and Camo Cloaks), so you can get a Stormtalon and a Thunderfire Cannon and they just naturally fit in that empty Elite slot you've got. :)

You have to start altering tactics that work in order to keep a unit alive.

That you're not altering to keep your WGTDA unit alive?

You could go for a sorcerer, but why would you when you could have a rune priest?

Null Zone or Telepathy.

[skeletoro]

So thats 12 ap3 attacks with re rolls and 3 TH attacks.

 

Really kicks arse! I'll run them in a redeemer and either outflank with a WGBL or I'll just run them up the weak side.

 

These guys and TWC work really nicely together. You can just hide the TWC behind the redeemer and plough them into the fleshy parts!!

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that running them up the weak side is by far the better option. Outflanking is likely to delay their entry into melee by at least 1 turn, as you cannot charge on the turn you arrive from reserves. Running up a flank flat out is the way to go, I think (and saves you 80 points!)

 

 

 

All this cost effectiveness is a massive none issue for a space wolves player if they know how to use their force properly.

I have to disagree here. It's always an issue. Really, it's best to be cost effective AND strategic. It's not an either/or.

At 255 pts for a unit that will eat a tactical squad or a raider or your opponents HQ in one turn I think they are massively worth it.

A single thunder hammer at strength 8 cannot possibly eat a raider at all. You're glancing on a 6, and only get 3 attacks on the charge. You have a less than 1% chance to remove 3 hull points from the raider, and even then it will still have a spare. For this reason I'd definitely recommend a chain fist over a thunder hammer.

 

If you diversify your TDAWG they just get shot to pieces by a tactical squad.

I guess it depends what you mean by "diversify." I'm of the opinion that TDA WG packs should be used at close quarters, and that 90% of the time you're going to want to charge. But there are many ways of accomplishing this, and ranged weapons don't hurt because TDA grants the relentless rule. You can rapid fire combi plasmas and then charge!

 

You want them to be in the enemies face for 1-2 turns otherwise thats only 5 wounds you've got there. Spend the rest of the time inside a trasport.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. I think that TDA WG and land raiders (or potentially Storm Eagles/Caestus Assault rams, but I'm undecided on that one) are natural partners. Assault ramps are very important. But you seem to think that dual wolf claws and TH+SS are the best loadout to implement this strategy, and I disagree. I don't think they are at all. Mainly because they're overshadowed by other powerful loadouts, for the points.

 

I often feel like allot of people don't really look at the bigger picture and are more worried about something being cheap. Especially when it comes to TWC or TDAWG.

Sometimes it's more about the quality of your unit's than the quantity you can put on the board.

I think there can be some limited situations where other considerations can speak in favour of less efficient options, eg:

1) If you're equipping a character who is likely to find themselves in a challenge, you might sacrifice points efficiency for raw power, because being able to win decisively has higher payoffs - you can scare enemy characters into backing out of challenges and this is huge.

2) Other cases of positive synergy (aka force multipliers) - you might choose to give more expensive upgrades to a unit accompanying an IC with buffs. If you're getting prescience or preferred enemy for the whole unit, you may as well make it a good unit. At the same time, overkill can be an issue for big tough units.

 

In both cases, you're trading points efficiency against something else (power per model) but this doesn't mean that points efficiency is not important at all. It's always important, but sometimes other considerations are important too.

 

Personally, I think the following loadout does what you want to do better, fits in your LRR, and is more flexible, at roughly the same points cost:

 

5 TDA:

4 Combi-plas and power weapon (make 1 a sword and the rest axes, and consider switching one combi weapon for a heavy flamer)

1 wolf claw and chain fist

2 P. Armour with bolt pistol and power axe.

261 points.

 

This unit is more survivable, packs a bigger punch in melee (especially against TDA, which your unit will flounder against), can hunt tanks (your unit can only pop relatively light vehicles, and even then not reliably), has front-loaded plasma firepower, and has some shooting ability to use while stranded or before charging (don't underestimate relentless - it's a crucially important part of the value of that TDA upgrade). It's also more survivable.

 

At the very least, you should be switching 2x wolf claws out for wc+pf. It costs nothing and is strictly better.