10 wolf guard termies, why doesnt every army take some?

[greysquigg]

Well when you put it like that!

 

Fair dooz, I stand corrected.

 

 

I like the LRR loadout, I'll give it a try when I get another box of TDA.

 

 

GS

[Valerian]

Excellent points by Skeletoro (as usual, it seems). Simply put, Phil Kelly has "dissuaded" us from trying to replicate C: SM Assault Terminators by making the SS/TH and WC/WC combinations pretty damned expensive. However, prior to upgrades our basic WGTDA are very reasonably priced, and he left Combi-weapons at a dirt-cheap 5 points as an upgrade. Take advantage of that; I give Combi-plasmas to as many WGTDA as I can (taking advantage of Relentless and the better Save if I Overheat), and Combi-meltas to PAWG, to preserve the charge. I always give at least one (usually two) a Chainfist, as they eat through vehicles that Hammers can't touch. Mix up your other weapons (Power Axes, Swords, and Wolf Claws) according to your own tastes, and you'll be fine.

 

Valerian

[irwit]

That's a good idea putting the melt a on pa and plasma on tda. I've been leaning towards trying to keep the combis on the pa so I dont lose storm bolters. However I think its probably worth having combis on every WG. What other unit in 40k can all get loaded out with a plasma 2+ and power weapon for 38pts?

[skeletoro]

The frustrating thing about putting combis on power armoured models is that bolters are rapid fire. By putting combi weapons on your power armoured models and leaving storm bolters on your TDA models (rather than the other way round), you're saving 3 points per power armoured model in the pack. But the TDA models can fire those bolters and charge, while the power armoured models cannot!

 

As valerian said, you can kind of get around by putting combi-melta on the PA models, but if you are making a mixed unit of TDA and PA wolf guard (as opposed to equipping a wgpl to go in a rhino with a gh pack), you'll have to make a choice. Is your unit a:

 

1) Faux devastator unit? By all means, load up a drop pod with 4 power armoured wolf guard with combi-meltas and 1 TDA WG with cyclone missile launcher. It's cheap and effective, as well as focused. You can't rapid fire and charge, but you're not really planning on assaulting with this unit anyway, right? Alternatively, give the power armoured models storm bolters (and maybe lose the drop pod and use the points to upgrade 1 or 2 of the models to TDA). Now you have a pretty good mid range shooting and objective holder unit. Take care to stay out of your enemy's rapid fire range!

2) Assault unit? I'd sidestep this issue entirely, and give any power armoured guys power axes and bolt pistols, and keep them behind your combi + power axe TDA models (give one TDA model a sword, as it's quite possible that you will lose a terminator before you get to make all your axe attacks, even if the enemy unit is kind of crappy).

[Anaraion]

Personally, I think the following loadout does what you want to do better, fits in your LRR, and is more flexible, at roughly the same points cost:

 

5 TDA:

4 Combi-plas and power weapon (make 1 a sword and the rest axes, and consider switching one combi weapon for a heavy flamer)

1 wolf claw and chain fist

2 P. Armour with bolt pistol and power axe.

261 points.

 

This unit is more survivable, packs a bigger punch in melee (especially against TDA, which your unit will flounder against), can hunt tanks (your unit can only pop relatively light vehicles, and even then not reliably), has front-loaded plasma firepower, and has some shooting ability to use while stranded or before charging (don't underestimate relentless - it's a crucially important part of the value of that TDA upgrade). It's also more survivable.

 

At the very least, you should be switching 2x wolf claws out for wc+pf. It costs nothing and is strictly better.

 

Okay first of thank you. Your posts are full of informative thought provoking discussion. It makes me think and go back and look at what I thought I knew.

 

Now one question, here you propose a WC/CF and yet you also mention the WC/PF. Then in your other thread on WG...

 

storm shield + power fist

 

So now as I am a returning player (played in 3rd and some 4th) I am trying to understand exactly what the pros and cons of PF vs CF versus different meta. Would you mind sharing your thoughts here?

 

Thank you again.

[skeletoro]

Personally, I think the following loadout does what you want to do better, fits in your LRR, and is more flexible, at roughly the same points cost:

 

5 TDA:

4 Combi-plas and power weapon (make 1 a sword and the rest axes, and consider switching one combi weapon for a heavy flamer)

1 wolf claw and chain fist

2 P. Armour with bolt pistol and power axe.

261 points.

 

This unit is more survivable, packs a bigger punch in melee (especially against TDA, which your unit will flounder against), can hunt tanks (your unit can only pop relatively light vehicles, and even then not reliably), has front-loaded plasma firepower, and has some shooting ability to use while stranded or before charging (don't underestimate relentless - it's a crucially important part of the value of that TDA upgrade). It's also more survivable.

 

At the very least, you should be switching 2x wolf claws out for wc+pf. It costs nothing and is strictly better.

 

Okay first of thank you. Your posts are full of informative thought provoking discussion. It makes me think and go back and look at what I thought I knew.

 

Now one question, here you propose a WC/CF and yet you also mention the WC/PF. Then in your other thread on WG...

 

storm shield + power fist

 

So now as I am a returning player (played in 3rd and some 4th) I am trying to understand exactly what the pros and cons of PF vs CF versus different meta. Would you mind sharing your thoughts here?

 

Thank you again.

 

Hehe, no worries.

 

Yeah, it sounds like I contradicted myself a little there, doesn't it?

 

First, WC+PF cs WC+CF. There isn't a lot of difference. The chain fist combo is the same, but costs 5 more points and makes you a LOT more likely to penetrate heavily armoured vehicles. A str 8 power fist is almost incapable of getting through a land raider's hull but a chain fist does so with relative ease. Versus non-vehicles, though, a chain fist is a slightly more expensive power fist.

 

Regarding storm shields on wolf guard: You have to work hard to get mileage out of them. You have to take care that the 48 points (minimum) you're spending actually improves the survivability of the unit. In a regular unit of grey hunters, without a wolf standard, the storm shield model concedes 16 points per AP2 wound, while a grey hunter only concedes 15! This won't do!

 

However, that same storm shield loadout might be well worth it if used sparingly in a melee unit of wolf guard. A basic tda + power axe wolf guard concedes 22 points to an AP2 wound, while a bolt pistol + power axe model concedes 28! So having a storm shield guy in the unit might not be a bad idea at all (but I think you should only have 1 or maybe 2, and don't upgrade their power weapon).

 

As that other thread indicates, I've recently come to appreciate the potential for storm shields in wolf guard pack leaders. If you build a grey hunters unit to be quite melee oriented, then a tda + storm shield model is extremely survivable for one assault phase per turn. For 3.2x the cost of a grey hunter, you get 8x the survivability of a grey hunter vs AP4+, 36x the survivability of a grey hunter vs AP3, and 4.5x the survivability of a grey hunter vs AP1-2. This could potentially be very decisive if used correctly...

[Anaraion]

Thank you. That is right about where I was but wanted to be sure.

 

Just based on fluff I love TDA and have been struggling to get the right mix. Now based on your post I am think of 5 of the following 6 will be there...

 

PS/Cplas

PA/Cplas

PA/Cplas

WC/Cplas

CF/Cplas

PA/SS

 

I am hesitant to put both the WC and a CF on one single one wound model. Also is it worth making one Cplas a Cmelta just in case?

 

Thoughts... ?

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I personally believe that combi-weapons are a slightly better deal on PA WG than TDA. In both situations though, I'd typically put combis on Drop Pod units and go with other loadouts when not (keep the SB for foot-slogging TDA, and tailor the PA to the role their unit plays).

 

I believe Storm Bolters are somewhat underrated for a durable footslogging unit considering their reach, rate of fire, cost effectiveness, and synergy with CML and Wolf Priests.

[skeletoro]

Thank you. That is right about where I was but wanted to be sure.

 

Just based on fluff I love TDA and have been struggling to get the right mix. Now based on your post I am think of 5 of the following 6 will be there...

 

PS/Cplas

PA/Cplas

PA/Cplas

WC/Cplas

CF/Cplas

PA/SS

 

I am hesitant to put both the WC and a CF on one single one wound model. Also is it worth making one Cplas a Cmelta just in case?

 

Thoughts... ?

 

Looks pretty good to me.

 

Putting the WC and CF on a single model means you get one extra attack, and really, upgrading from a power axe to a wolf claw isn't a HUGE upgrade (more of a sidegrade, really). Having the wolf claw and power fist on a single model means you can choose which weapon you use for those 3/4 attacks, which is nice.

 

On the other hand, keeping them separate allows you to invest in another combi-plas. Personally, if I was going to take a CF/Cplas, I probably wouldn't bother buying a wolf claw for the other guy - I'd just leave him PA/Cplas. But that's just me.

 

Splitting between Cmelt and Cplas is a hard call. On the one hand, it opens up options, and allows you to pop a transport and then charge its occupants. Just remember, this unit cannot split its fire, so you won't be able to direct those bolters and plasma shots to an infantry squad (or the occupants of the popped transport). You'd have to shoot melta and bolters and the transport (and, if it pops, charge), and then the next turn shoot your plasma. Unless you were shooting at rear armour in which case you might feel like unloading plasma on the vehicle.

 

Personally, my leaning is to put melta in different units. For instance, a dev unit in a drop pod that has no intention of getting into melee, or perhaps on your land raiders (if you're using them) where they can be individually targeted at full BS using Power of the Machine Spirit (in fact, with a land raider you can go flat out and fire multi melta on turn 1 - that's a 30" range for the 8+2d6 armour pen!)

[irwit]

I personally believe that combi-weapons are a slightly better deal on PA WG than TDA. In both situations though, I'd typically put combis on Drop Pod units and go with other loadouts when not (keep the SB for foot-slogging TDA, and tailor the PA to the role their unit plays).

 

I believe Storm Bolters are somewhat underrated for a durable footslogging unit considering their reach, rate of fire, cost effectiveness, and synergy with CML and Wolf Priests.

 

What do you mean about synergy with cml and wolf priest? Surely having a cml and storm bolter leaves you stuck between shooting a vehicle and wasting storm bolters or shooting troops and maybe not getting the most out of 2 strength 8 missiles with 48inch range?

 

Personally I'd say a cml would be best with a GH squad or maybe lf. My only thing with lf is you lose a mobility.

[Anaraion]

Putting the WC and CF on a single model means you get one extra attack, and really, upgrading from a power axe to a wolf claw isn't a HUGE upgrade (more of a sidegrade, really). Having the wolf claw and power fist on a single model means you can choose which weapon you use for those 3/4 attacks, which is nice.

 

Good point.

 

Thank you again :).