Cultist

[StrangeGuy]

Greetings my spikey friends. I was thinking today about the last game of 40k I played. It was around November 2010 and my Codex marines were battling my friends Orks. He fielded I don't know how many grots, like 3 or 4 HUGE squads of them if I remember correctly. He had made a trade that day with a guy and the guy had thrown in just a ridiculous amount of grots because he was sick of them. There wasn't anything I could do, I had a vindicator, a thunderfire, missile launchers up the wazoo but I couldn't stop them from reaching my troops and tying me up in assault, therefore rendering me unable to fire on his other troops for a turn or two.

 

My question is this have any of you fine folks tried a list with lots of cultists and if so, how'd it work out?

[Lieutenant Steel]

I haven't used Cultists yet myself but the common concensus is that they can be run in a couple of configurations:

 

1) Shooty: 35 Cultists w/Autoguns and 3x Heavy Stubbers

2) Choppy: 20+ Cultists w/Pistols and 3x Flamers

3) Objective Campers: 10 Cultists (naked, usually with an Aegis Defense Line)

 

I can imagine that, similar to IG blob squads, having 90+ Cultists with Autoguns and 3x Special weapons would make for some very good (and fairly cheap) firepower at mid range, that would be hard to shift without spending a lot of fire (either from multiple units or over multiple turns) taking them down.

 

The combat units are the ones that I struggle to see working well (those with Mark of Khorne or Slaanesh).

 

Objective camping units of them seem to be fairly common to sit on backfield objectives.

[GlauG]

I had enough success with a near- maxed out squad of Plague Zombies with Typhus at 1k points that I'd love to try Cultist blobs as a general list; on paper, I can run 35 Plague Zombies, Typhus, and 20 each of Autogun and pistol/CCW Cultists for exactly 590pts using 2 sets of Dark Vengeance Cultists as WYSIWYG. That's a lot of bodies on the board, I'm just not sure what to do with the rest of the points! At 1K maybe a pair of Helldrakes...

[Brother Ambroz]

I can imagine that similar to IG bob squads having 90+ Cultists with Autoguns and 3x Special weapons would make for some very good (and fairly cheap) firepower at mid range, that would be hrad to shift without spending a lot of fire taking them down.

 

Only problem with comparing them to blob squads is IG can have tons of characters with upgrades, whereas we get one character who can't upgrade at all and possibly an IC if you stick one in there. Plus IG can add more and more to that said unit.

 

The others are definite uses though.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Only problem with comparing them to blob squads is IG can have tons of characters with upgrades, whereas we get one character who can't upgrade at all and possibly an IC if you stick one in there. Plus IG can add more and more to that said unit.

 

Well that's why I said '... similar to...' and not '... exactly the same as...'

 

;)

 

I don't have any experience with Cultists so far, but like the look of them (as well as being an old Alpha Legion player I feel that I must have some at some point...), however I can't justify the cost of giving them any of the Marks with possibly the exception of Nurgle but even then I think I'd rather just opt for more naked Cultists; does anyone have any experience using Cultists with different Marks (Slaanesh/ Khorne)?

[Brother Ambroz]

I just don't think it's worth it spending points for marks on cultists. A mark costs almost as much as the cultist itself, thus wouldn't it be better to just take another cultist altogether?

[Lepaca]

Units of 10 are pretty good for late game objective grabbing.

Just keep them in reserve as long as possible to keep them safe!

[Lieutenant Steel]

Marks aren't the same price as Cultists though- it's 4pts for a naked Cultist and 5pts for one with an autogun; Marks are 1 or 2 pts per model (depending on which Mark) so yes, you're investing a significant number of points in Marking your squad, but it's nowhere near as much as the cost of a single guy, or it would be even less of a choice to make...

 

As it stands you could have 6 M.o.N/ M.o.K, 8 M.o.Tz/ M.o.S guys or 10 Unmarked guys.

Whilst it doesn't ever look like it would be worth taking Khornate or Slaaneshi Cultists (seriously how would they survive to get into Assault range of anything, let alone do any damage?) the other Marks aren't terrible choices, though they certainly aren't amazing either.

 

It's pretty much the same effect to take the M.o.Tz as to take extra bodies, but that works to let people play fluffy Tzeentch themed lists and not really loose out (until they get to their other unit choices, but that's another topic altogether...).

 

M.o.N seems ok, even with the 50% point increase per model; is anyone capable of Math-hammering out the probability of an equal points worth of Unmarked & M.o.N Cultists surviving against Lasguns and Boltguns? Would be good to see just to put that argument to bed.

 

Besides, by adding Autoguns to the unit you increase the number of points you are 'protecting' by taking M.oTz/ M.o.N, meaning that the Marks add more value to you. when it's a 20% pts increase and not 25% one it might make you more likely to take it. Or not *shrug*

[Brother Ambroz]

Usually it's best in my experience to use larger units if you're going to mark them and then with the larger units they get expensive pretty quickly. You start adding on autoguns and marks, they're not that much cheaper than an actual CSM squad are they?

[Lieutenant Steel]

Even at 7pts each (assuming you take Autoguns and the most expensive Marks, read: Nurgle or Khorne) you'd be able to get 2 for every regular CSM.

 

Whether that it's worth the points, once you take into account all the inherent bonus' of being a CSM (power armour and mostly 4's on your statline), I do not know, but I'd be inclined to think it's not really that worthwhile.

[totgeboren]

I can't see how any of the marks could be worth it on cultists. I mean, for instance, the MoK reduces your numbers by 50% and the amount of attacks you get on the assault by around 10% (on a unit basis). Counter-assault is nice, though you can't snap-fire then, and close combat cultists will most likely have flamers which are ok at snap-firing.

This same argument goes for most of the marks (except maybe the MoS, which could be useful in very specific circumstances).

The mark of Nurgle reduces your offensive output by 50%, and the units resilience by around 10%. That is, each bolter which hits the unit will kill around 10% more points if they have the MoN than if they had no mark.

 

Autoguns give the unit much more utility, but their close combat abilities are reduced by 50%, so it's a tradeoff that is not as clear-cut as you might think, at least not if you want to lead the squad with an IC (who tend to do better in cc than in shooting).

 

In many ways, the cultist that bring the most utility to the CSM army is the standard dude with his trusty pistol and iron bar. He also allows CSM to do the 'Grot trick' the OP mentioned, overwhelming him and allowing your elite CSM units to pick their targets.

[Rayray]

In my Word Bearers army, i run 60 cultists (two blobs), and they end up amazingly effective. My opponents either ignore them, and they go mexican on units with their autoguns, or they absorb fire that would otherwise be aimed at my csm boys. Either way, cultists are a win win situation.

[the jeske]

how do you get 3 flamers in to a 20+unit?

[Rayray]

how do you get 3 flamers in to a 20+unit?

He must really mean 30+

[Crypt Lord]

The only mark I would even consider taking on the cultists would be MoS. This bumps them to I4. So in the case of a rumble going down against MEQ, they will trade their large blob wounds on the same Int step as the MEQ. (Hopefully)

 

Maybe with a blob of 30, (CCW+pistol) on the charge you could spew out 90 attacks at I4? Of course assuming all are in range to attack?...hmm :P

[the jeske]

how does a 30 man cultists blob charge a meq unit without losing any models . Or what kind of a unit is the meq one if it is charging cultists ? purfis ?

[Lieutenant Steel]

how does a 30 man cultists blob charge a meq unit without losing any models

That's my biggest problem with both the Mark of Khorne and Mark of Slaanesh: by the time you hit combat you'll most likely have less than half your original number left and the ebenfits vs. points ratio is just far too small to mean they'll even do enough damage when they do get into combat.

[the jeske]

lets say one has 20 dudes charging and there is no cover[no frags would make mos useless]. 60 A hiting on +4 . is 30 hits . then wounding on +5 . is 20 saves on +3 [no FnP , two wounds etc] 7 dead meq ? not bad . But now lets look at the units meq use . marines will run with a flamer/RL or a flamer/las set up and tacticals seem to hug cover a lot. there are the GH ,the real problem here happens when the squad has a +2sv leader or HQ and pops totem , re-rollable +2sv suck hard.

RAS . now those should not be possible to get charged by cultists both the razor and jump version of the unit moves too fast .

they actualy do good against normal GK [but not against puris] , because of the low number of A they have . but on the other hand 5-6 stormbolters and 2 psycannons even without re-rolls can hurt on overwatch .

 

Cultists work like orks or guants this edition , they give cheap 1-3 flamers and can put a lot of shots if autoguns are taken . The problem is that unlike guants they dont get re-rolls or pods and they arent as tough or fearless as orks .

 

they do ok bubble wraps , if someone needs them for their army and that is more or less it.

[nurglez]

You have to remember that this is not just in a vacuum, there are other units around. You could rush a rhino/landraider with a dirge caster to prevent overwatch, charge a chaos spawn in first to take the overwatch etc.

 

I personally feel that marked cultists aren't really worth it, I'd prefer more bodies (apart from a nurgle marked squad in an epidemius list). Keep them cheap and use them as the cannon fodder they are.

 

I use 2x10man squads with a flamer. 110 points for 2 scoring squads who will generally reserve and come on to hold an objective. In one of my games I got 3 infiltrates, so outflanked both cultist squads and a plasma plague marine squad in a rhino. I also like to put them in a spare rhino and charge them off towards an objective :D

[the jeske]

You could rush a rhino/landraider with a dirge caster to prevent overwatch, charge a chaos spawn in first to take the overwatch etc.

then the cultists and spawn formation costs more then csm and csm give you 4/4/4/4 +3sv in stats .