A fan-codex?

[Xeraxen]

:) I brought this idea up in the Chaos Land Raider thread and was essentially brushed off in two post whilst everyone else spoke of alcohol and human migration. I feel that a new thread would at least get more of the expected response.

 

I know we're mostly unsatisfied with the new Chaos Codex, and I understand your sentiments - I can't go anywhere in the Chaos 40K internet community without finding posts griping about the codex and wishing it was better.

 

But that's all we seem to be doing, brothers, griping and bemoaning our predicament.

 

I see no point in us simply sitting around wishing things were better. If you want something to change, you need to get up and do something about it instead of complaining. Complaining won't get our voices heard about rule changes and unit variants.

 

Boycotting GW won't work, too many people are still buying Chaos Models, myself included - though I do so for modelling reasons mainly.

 

Slews of letters and emails to GW petitioning a WD update or FAQ probably won't work unless it's in obscenely high volume and isn't hate-mail.

 

An option I see for us is to write our own fan-made Chaos Codex like how this bloke here did for the 5th edition one: http://blazbaros.deviantart.com/art/Codex-...ition-327955702 [click the 'Download File' button on the right side of the page to view the document].

 

I know the immediate argument to this will be that no one will let us play it - which would be true if your opponent is either a dick or is skeptical that it'll be Ward-level overpowered. People also don't have time to flip through a printed fan codex before a match, so a single-sheet summary would be in order stating the changes made to the 6th edition Codex.

 

You may also point out that this won't be viable for a tournament, and you're right. This could only give us the competitive edge in friendly games at places that allow house rules. But isn't the point of the game to have fun? Or is stale victory all that means to anyone anymore? While victory is nice and all, isn't having fun during the match more important?

 

All the negativity on the Chaos forums kept me from enjoying my Chaos army in both modelling and in terms of playing matches. The constant bemoaning of what things should be and all that left me with a hopeless feeling and prompted me to leave the forums for large chunks of time these past two years.

 

I'm simply wondering if we're even willing to consider writing our own well-thought out codex to at least fill the void of the lacklustre rules the last two codexes left us.

 

Or are we stagnant, and will continue to *cuss* about the Codex for another five to six years in the vain hopes we receive a satisfactory codex by a writer who isn't a lazy bugger?

 

Tell me your thoughts, brothers.

[henrywalker]

people dont half seem to moan a lot but the fact is my chaos army have lost 1 game in their fairly full career and that was vs 3 stompas. Im always pro fan-dexs though.

[the jeske]

It is not hard to make stuff better . Spawn would actualy make sense if they werent FA , but slots less . abadon would be a viable HQ if he made chosen and/or terminators troops . the smith and apostol should be in elite not in HQs.

maulers should be elite . 1ksons should cost 6pts less . MoT should do something realy interesting , but interesting would be too complex . MoN should be WFB version of terror , fear in a world made out of ATKNF armies isnt worth it even when it is free.

 

But all of it would not be legal . cool for people who find opponents that let them house rule a dex , not important to everyone else.

[Brother Ambroz]

people dont half seem to moan a lot but the fact is my chaos army have lost 1 game in their fairly full career and that was vs 3 stompas.

 

Huh? Sorry can you clarify what you're trying to say here?

 

I'm mostly just buying models nowadays for painting/modeling purposes too. I'd be all for a fandex though, we've had a few in our homebrewed rules section if I remember correctly. DAT would be able to tell you more about that. I'd also be down to flood GW with letters but only if I knew others were doing it as well otherwise it'd be a waste.

[henrywalker]

people dont half seem to moan a lot but the fact is my chaos army have lost 1 game in their fairly full career and that was vs 3 stompas.

 

Huh? Sorry can you clarify what you're trying to say here?

 

I'm mostly just buying models nowadays for painting/modeling purposes too. I'd be all for a fandex though, we've had a few in our homebrewed rules section if I remember correctly. DAT would be able to tell you more about that. I'd also be down to flood GW with letters but only if I knew others were doing it as well otherwise it'd be a waste.

 

 

well people complain about how crap the chaos dex is but i hve played dozens of games by now against varied components with varied armies and they have done very well. the only game they havent won was one against three stompas and nothing else

[Brother Ambroz]

Ah ok now I see what you're saying. The way you said it before I just didn't understand it.

[Azekai]

The tricky thing about a fan dex is that many would cry foul to our 'fixes,' though we perceive them as necessary. I can hear them now-

"You just got a brand new codex, shut up and be happy that you are almost half as good as SW!"

 

But all of it would not be legal . cool for people who find opponents that let them house rule a dex , not important to everyone else.

Faugh, legality is quite overrated. I think this entire hobby has grown overly-dependent on GW for material, be it rules or miniatures or 'cannon.' I would be a happy man if we all agreed that many GW rules are claptrap obviously aimed at getting us to buy things (looking at you, awesome flier rules!).

 

Were we to begin designing our own rules, I would gladly make the possessed significantly cheaper, or possibly allow them to buy upgrades rather than roll for them. More daemon weapons would be good, even if they were ports from the old codex. Also, kai guns should be back in.

 

TeutonicAvenger's idea for a obliterator-virus infected landraider would be a lot of fun to implement as well!

[Xeraxen]

It is not hard to make stuff better . Spawn would actualy make sense if they werent FA , but slots less . abadon would be a viable HQ if he made chosen and/or terminators troops . the smith and apostol should be in elite not in HQs.

maulers should be elite . 1ksons should cost 6pts less . MoT should do something realy interesting , but interesting would be too complex . MoN should be WFB version of terror , fear in a world made out of ATKNF armies isnt worth it even when it is free.

 

But all of it would not be legal . cool for people who find opponents that let them house rule a dex , not important to everyone else.

 

Would making Apostles a 1-3 unit per choice be applicable?

 

Something interesting for MoT like letting a unit reroll to-hit rolls of 1 like what the DP of Tzeentch can do? It'll be a form of foresight. I think the Nids had that at one point.

 

I think that the MoN, MoS, and MoT should have an additional affect as well as their initial one. MoN could force enemy players to re-roll charge distances due to the miasma of flies surrounding the unit?

 

MoT could get the +1 psyker lvl back, apply the re-roll of 1 for to-hit, and perhaps even give a 5+ initial invuln or the +1 invuln boost?

 

MoS could allow marked chars/dreads/vehicles to take sonic weapons?

[Lieutenant Steel]

Personally I wouldn't mind if the Mark of Tzeentch/ Thousand Sons stayed the same points cost, or only dropped by one or two points- provided it gave them the benefits that it does now + gave them the ability to re-roll natural 1's to hit. It allows (fluff-wise) for the fact that they are somewhat prescient and would mean that whilst they stayed very expensive points-wise, they would actually be better than an equal costing squad of Unmarked CSMs.

 

I agree that Spawn shouldn't be Fast Attack options; Maulerfiends should be.

 

Forgefiends need around a 30-50pt drop in cost or to be BS4 and still 10-15pts.

Defilers should just be cheaper and have Cheaper weapon options.

 

Helbrute weapon costs should be looked at/ changed around a bit. Helbrutes should also have a Daemon save, or the option to take Mutated Hulls again for +1 AV.

 

I think that the Dark Apostle should be a unit upgrade for a squad of Chosen, which would give us a better reason to use both the Apostle and Chosen. Chosen should also have a small drop in points cost or come with V.o.t.L.W for free. You could also make the case for Apostles to be taken as an upgrade for one Cultist unit per army to represent the 'faithful' servants that they've managed to inspire, as per their fluff.

 

Cultist units should be able to take any Mark for free, excepting Nurgle, which should be 1pt per model, or maybe still 2pts if it'd be too gross with a Tally list. The other Marks are terrible on Cultists though and so should definitely be free.

 

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I've been thinking on this kind of thing a lot over for the past few weeks. Will post more thoughts as and when I have them.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Something interesting for MoT like letting a unit reroll to-hit rolls of 1 like what the DP of Tzeentch can do?

Tzentch DPs can only re-roll saving throws of 1 currently, not to-hit dice :sweat:

 

It'll be a form of foresight. I think the Nids had that at one point.

Imperial Guard had it a few Codex's ago when the Cadians were first released, to represent their extra training or some such.

 

I think that the MoN, MoS, and MoT should have an additional affect as well as their initial one. MoN could force enemy players to re-roll charge distances due to the miasma of flies surrounding the unit?

Why not Khorne as well? I think the biggest problem with adding effects to the Marks is balancing that with how much better the Cult Troops could become when they start stacking all of those benefits.

 

MoT could get the +1 psyker lvl back, apply the re-roll of 1 for to-hit, and perhaps even give a 5+ initial invuln or the +1 invuln boost?

Tzeentch definitely needs a boost, and the extra pysker level would make sense, as well as going some way to stopping the Aspiring Sorcerors from being points sinks. I also think the Sorcerors should be a unit add on and not strictly necessary, but that's IMO and would probably go against the new challenging rules/ fluff or something...

 

 

MoS could allow marked chars/dreads/vehicles to take sonic weapons?

It really should. Sonic Dreads/ Vehicles are awesome and dedicated Slaaneshis will already have a couple of them converted that they have to bodge back into line with normal shooting rules...

[Xeraxen]

Cultist units should be able to take any Mark for free, excepting Nurgle, which should be 1pt per model, or maybe still 2pts if it'd be too gross with a Tally list. The other Marks are terrible on Cultists though and so should definitely be free.

 

Well what if they could get the same mark benefits as above, as long as the Apostle is alive?

 

Re-rolls of natural 1s on a torrent-fire unit like Cultists would be useful.

[Xeraxen]

I think that the MoN, MoS, and MoT should have an additional affect as well as their initial one. MoN could force enemy players to re-roll charge distances due to the miasma of flies surrounding the unit?

Why not Khorne as well? I think the biggest problem with adding effects to the Marks is balancing that with how much better the Cult Troops could become when they start stacking all of those benefits.

 

Khorne already has counter-attack as it's bonus in addition to the +1 attack on the charge. I personally felt that either Noise marines or MoS units should've had counter attack in this edition to represent their reflexes.

[Brother Ambroz]

Khorne is one of the weaker ones this edition anyway. The others have statline changes whereas Khorne is only skills. Might not be a big difference to some people though.

 

Edit: Maybe remove counter-attack from Khorne and give it to Slaanesh? Then give Khorne back the plus one attack. Doesn't really make much sense for them to have it anyway, does it?

[Lieutenant Steel]

That's where I was coming from Tanith Ghost; since M.o.Khorne is generally considered one of the weakest I just thought it might need a little extra 'pep' to keep it at the current points value. Maybe just giving it a small drop in cost would be enough to make it more viable?

 

I agree with the idea of Slaanesh getting the Counter-charge to represent reflexes; it fits very nicely into the theme of it and also make them the polar opposite of Khorne (which also fits the fluff very nicely). What would you give the Khornate units to make up for the lack of this ability if you did give Counter Charge to Noise Marines/ M.o.S CSMs?

[Xeraxen]

Khorne is one of the weaker ones this edition anyway. The others have statline changes whereas Khorne is only skills. Might not be a big difference to some people though.

 

Edit: Maybe remove counter-attack from Khorne and give it to Slaanesh? Then give Khorne back the plus one attack. Doesn't really make much sense for them to have it anyway, does it?

 

What if it was changed back to it's standard stat change of +1 attack all the time? If that was the case, what would the additional bonus be?

[Lieutenant Steel]

What about having such a ferocious charge that they can't be targetted by Overwatch? Would remove the need for a Dirge Caster but could be situational...

 

I'm not really sure where to take the extra bonus before it starts treading on the toes of the different unit Icons :rolleyes:

 

+1 attack all the time is better hands down, it still feels like it needs a little something extra but maybe something as simple as a points decrease (to both the Mark and to Berzerkers) would be enough without going overboard?

[AL-PiXeL01]

I long to see land raiders roll across the field of battle, obliterating foes before delivering their deadly cargo. So I'm all for more specific vehicle options like cult rhinos and land raiders with more choices.

More daemon weapons are in need as well.

Bike troops?

[Xenith]

A general fandex didnt appear/work for the last codex, and it wont for this one.

 

There is some oddness in this dex, but we will just have to live with it, now.

 

My main problem with it is all the damn record keeping. I need the brb, codex, and a pad and paper to keep track of random spells, rules and boons.

 

Upgrading the boon table to something more akin to Epidemius' tally would be awesome.

[Xeraxen]

Upgrading the boon table to something more akin to Epidemius' tally would be awesome.

 

Yes, but to get that we'd need a fan-dex, wouldn't we? :)

[zyl-]

I think the biggest problem for this idea would be the balance issue. What would we balance ourselves against?

Assuming it's SW, but the people we play against might feel snubbed by the fact that we made new rules, so now they make new and more powerful rules. Just play chaos space wolves and save the trouble of trying to make a system that people will find flaw with imo.

[Plaguecaster]

I hate it when people say if you want a better army choice go SW or another loyalist dex, I am a true Chaos play who will always play CSM no matter how average they are I will never betray the Chaos Gods with such lack of faith. Anyway a fan dex would be cool though be very unlikely anyone would let you use it, if I was making my own rules for the codex I would

 

Make a Land Raider Obliterator as like whythre said the idea is just so awesome and would fit perfectly with our fluff as well as making loyalists fear our land raider which to be honest is a pale limitation compared to theirs, I have even sent an email to GW with the idea for a LR Obliterator hopefully they take the hint.

 

Chosen and Possessed need to be improved as they like Terminators are the elite of the elite in our armies fluffwise anyway as such they should be represented as this in the games as well I don't know maybe make it so chosen automatically with power weapons with the entire squad able to select a wide range of special wargear as well as the special ranged weapons able to be upgraded with jump packs, bike, terminator armour or even flesh metal. Making it so they can be a retinue for any of the Hqs (apart from DPs ) would be nice as well with the marks of chaos making them better versions of cult units with the same wargear and rules as them. Possessed should get a major change as well with more daemonic abilities which can be chosen by the player out of a large list as well as giving them and chosen a roll on the boon chart which affects the whole unit (apart from spawn or DP)

 

Our vehicles including hellbrutes need a major change as most apart from the daemon engines are basically pale limitations of the loyalist ones, we should get more transports as well as our vehicles getting more options which separate them from our loyalist bretheren give options for dedicated cult units with a variety of weapons and wargear for each god like sonic weapon vehicles etc. A cheap chaos drop pod or transport with a 21 transport capacity would be nice. Daemon engines need a price drop on most as well as an increase on their BS and Ws on most with maybe AV 13 on defiler or fiends with more options as well as being able to be dedicated to one of the major gods.

 

Certain units need a price decrease as well as major change with most cult units (unsure with most as only play Nurgle but maybe fix some of the others marks and wargar Beerkers should all get chain axes free or immune to psychic powers etc) mainly make spawn not take up slots as well keeping Warpsmith Sorcerers and Dark apostles in HQ though make them better more wounds or better abilities etc as well as having lesser warpsmiths Sorcerers or dark apostles which are used to boost squads they join being elites though take up no force organisation slot. We also need more chaos wargear mainly daemon weapons as our current selection is pathetic have more daemon weapons or better yet only daemon weapon which you can chose what abilities it has out of a list or possible options like the inquisitor daemonblade but better as it is wrong inquisitors have a cooler daemon weapon which in their fluff is "less dertructive than the daemon weapons borne by the servants of chaos" :cuss

 

Give all HQs the ability to take cult units as troops with right mark as well as the option to unlock terminators, bikes and raptors as troops (very unlikely but would be cool). After all I believe that out of all the marine codexs both loyalist and our chaos one CSM should be the most flexible army as we are not limited to the codex astartes so should be able to have armies basically what we thinks is cool either all terminators, bikes or raptors as after all most loyalists BA, DA etc can do it so why wouldn't chaos. (please don't say go play them as I shall start a black crusade against you)

 

Warptalons and Mutilators should be better as well with more special characters with the others getting better. Also Plague Zombies should be an actual troop choice you can take if you have plague marines instead of having to take Typhus

 

I have a few more ideas but would probably would take up alot more of this post, yes some of my ideas might sound stupid to some or over powered but it is a fan dex so this is just what I would do if I wrote my own codex and do not have that good design skills as others.

[Trevak Dal]

All the negativity on the Chaos forums kept me from enjoying my Chaos army in both modelling and in terms of playing matches. The constant bemoaning of what things should be and all that left me with a hopeless feeling and prompted me to leave the forums for large chunks of time these past two years.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I somewhat agree, but this is a really minor one of those things where you should "Find Your own way" and screw what the majority says. The best thing if you're being negatively affected by the complaining online is to just not go online.

[DavidKits]

love to help where i could for fan dex' sadly i'm not the best at writing fluff or anything as my grammer in writing has always been.. *sighs* below par... *snaps fingers* but hey ;)

 

for me the one thing i would like about a new version of a dex. as much as I like my chaos one and it does very well for me so far... the only thing i really wanted... more options for special characters. don't get me wrong the guys we get are all nice and dandy just wanting to see someone or something new for a change not the same characters all the time :/ guess thats why i made up my own for my campaign coming up in my home city.^.^;;;

[hornywingythingy]

Forgefiends need around a 30-50pt drop in cost or to be BS4 and still 10-15pts.

 

Apparently they were playtested at 125 pts, and the playtesters screamed foul, and badgered for a 50 point price hike.

[Rain]

Honestly the problem with this dex is not even so much its weakness (though it is fairly weak and nothing feels exciting or powerful to field) but that just like the Gavdex it lacks "soul" which is really important, especially for Chaos. For starters it needs at least 1 daemon weapon per mark, the Chaos boons should be purchasable and also separated out by marks (Khorne should be able to buy +1 str, Slaanesh +1 WS, etc to represent brute force, finesse, etc.).

 

I also want Talisman of Burning Blood back, in 6e I suppose it would work by making you roll a dice at the beginning of each turn and on a 1 or 2 you can charge after running, but it must be at the nearest enemy. Also would be nice if Slaanesh got combat drugs again, and Tzeentch should be able to take Rubric terminators and sorcerer covens. Also Rubrics should be able to choose from several "enchantments" on their bolters as long as the sorc is alive, ie: Inferno Bolts are S4 AP3, Witchfire Bolts are S4 AP5 ignores cover, Deathreach Bolts are S4 AP5 Heavy 1 Range 36" etc.

 

See stuff like this, not just move X boring unit to slot Y, make Z boring unit 40 points cheaper.