A fan-codex?

[Svarte Hanske]

Two things;

 

1. We don't yet know how the other new codices will be. Maybe they all be in the same power-level as the new chaos one.

2. Personally I think the new one is an improvement of the last one.

[Iron_Within]

I don't agree Forgefiends need a points drop, I'm not convinced by defilers. Being able to upgrade Hellbrutes more would be nice.

 

TBH the real thing that gets me is poor old Tzeentch. He sucks massively. And it's not a hard fix. 5+ naturally, not 6+ or +1 to an existing save.

Thousand sons? Yeah they need more work. They need heavy bolters. They need Relentless, and they need IMO opinion +1 wounds. As they stand they are a rubbish specialised unit that own MEQ.

In terms of the spells; Tzeentchs firestorm AP: 2 or 4 depending on testing. Boon is fine IMO (Buff your sorcerer to ungodly proportions is good). Doombolt: Lance special rule, Breath of Chaos; either fine or give it torrent.

[Warsmith Aznable]

There's a couple things I'd tweak or add to the current codex, but overall I'm fairly happy with the change from last edition. You all still remember last edition, right? How unutterably terrible it was? Even compared to this new codex?

 

But if we're back to wish-listing and dreaming about which units would be super-cool and better than what we have now, I can contribute to that:

 

What -Max- Would Do To Our Codex

 

HQ

 

The Chaos Lord/Sorcerer - new special rules:

 

"Combat Doctrine" (or whatever). If a Lord takes a bike, bikers can be taken as a Troops choice. If a Lord takes a Jump Pack, Raptors can be taken as a Troops choice. If a Lord takes TDA, (regular) Terminators can be taken as a Troops choice.

 

"Daemonic Pact" - if the Sorcerer takes a Mark of Chaos, then he may instead choose to act as the HQ to fulfill the FOC for allies chosen from Codex: Daemons of Chaos, gaining the ability to join any unit from that codex that is dedicated to the same god of which he bears the Mark. If the Sorcerer is acting as the HQ of the daemonic allies, then the FOC for the primary detachment must still be fulfilled by a different HQ choice from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 

I'd bring back the Chaos Lieutenant. Just a plain guy in PA, no access to Chaos Artifacts, but otherwise everything that the Chaos Lord can purchase, and he wouldn't have the rule that Chaos Lords have that make a cult troop scoring, or the new rules above. He'd just be an inexpensive way to satisfy the FOC, no other frills necessary.

 

Or... New Character : Iago the Ancient

 

Warsmith would be able to drop orbital lance strikes, because just cursing a piece of terrain is kind of pointless and lame. Shatter Defences would go away, replaced by the Lance Strike. He'd also be able to take a retinue of Obliterators outside of the FOC, because that sounds awesome.

 

Dark Apostle would have a power better than what he does now. How about the ability to create a wave of Cultists? Say, as long as he's alive he generates d3 squads of 10 Cultists per turn who charge in from the player's table edge? Like that one Tyranid creature that does that. Or if they're zombies they come up straight out of the ground using deepstrike style placement. THAT would make him worth being an HQ, I think.

 

And I guess I forgot about the Daemon Prince. Same options, I guess, except he'd have to be the Warlord unless Abaddon, Ahriman, Typhus, Kharne, or Lucius was in the army. I might jigger with the Daemon of X-god stuff. Frankly I haven't played with Daemon Princes much this edition to know what to change on them.

 

I'd also probably get rid of the Boon Table, because that's a lot of stuff to keep track of, yo. Gift of Mutation would be dependent on the Mark of Chaos the model had (+1 Toughness for Nurgle, +1 Attack for Kharne, +1 Initiative for Slaanesh, and +1 Invuln for Tzeentch. Keep it nice and simpe. If no Mark of Chaos, then the model gets +1 to Strength) An un-named model with Champion of Chaos who won a challenge would roll 2d6 at the end of the challenge; a result of 2 would mutate the model into a Spawn attached to the unit and bearing the same Mark of Chaos that the original champion had; a result of 12 would ascend the model to a generic Daemon Prince bearing the same Mark of Chaos that the original champion had, and giving him wings if he was wearing a Jump Pack.

 

Chaos-y Stuff for the HQ Choices to Purchase

 

Enslaved Daemon: A Chaos Lord may bind a daemon into a regular power weapon. This allows that weapon to strike at Initiative. Pay X points per d6 Attacks added, up to 3d6. During the roll to determine the number of attacks, if one of the dice is showing a 1, the wielder is reduced to WS 1; if two of the dice are showing a 1, the wielder is reduced to WS 1 and Initiative 1; if three of the dice are showing a 1, the wielder maintains his WS and Initiative, but suffers an AP2 Wound as the daemon breaks the enchantment and returns to the Warp (item loses the Enslaved Daemon special rule).

 

Runes of Dedication: A Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer can dedicate any of his ranged or melee weapons by painting runes in the blood of sacrificial victims on the weapon before the battle. If the Lord/Sorcerer has taken a Mark of Chaos, the runes may not be of a different Mark than the one he has taken. If the Lord/Sorcerer has no Mark of Chaos, then he may choose any god to dedicate his weapons to, however they must all be dedicated to the same god.

 

Dedication to Khorne: weapon gains Rending USR

Dedication to Tzeentch: may force opponent to re-roll an Invulnerable save taken against this weapon

Dedication to Slaanesh: weapon gains Master Crafted USR

Dedication to Nurgle: weapon gains Shred USR

 

I'd bring some way to teleport without error that didn't involve building your entire list around the ill-conceived thighbone thing artifact whatever. Bringing back Icons that act as teleport homers would be nice. It sucked to lose that. But you'd have to buy it somehow, maybe a dedicated teleport homer, or maybe just using the icons as teleport homers again.

 

Elites

 

I'd have a unit of Elites 0-1 "Chosen Terminators", separate from regular Terminators, which would replace the Mutilators. They'd be 2W and Fearless, come with 1 sergeant and 4 soldiers and have three upgrade options. You could pay to upgrade any number of them to Mastery 1 Psykers, OR you could pay to give them Mutilator weapons and Daemon, OR you could pay to make them each a Champion of Chaos and Independent Character. Taking Abaddon as your HQ would remove the 0-1 limitation, and they would be scoring.

 

Regular Terminators: keep them the same. Maybe allow for larger units of them. Say, cap out at 20, just go nuts if you're willing to pay for it.

 

Berserkers would have Blood Tokens. Every unsaved Wound they caused would instantly increase their killyness. Sort of like the Tally of Nurgle, but only for that unit. Not sure how it would progress, but they would end up completely out of their minds if they got to 20. So they'd be nigh unstoppable, but could also go off the rails and start killing your own units if they were the closest thing in LoS. We could call the special rules "Butchers Nails" as a nod to BL fluff.

 

Noise Marines... I have no idea. Maybe let them shoot Overwatch at their regular ballistic skill. Or give them a special rule, I don't know, "Drop the Bass", that halves all assault rolls, like their wall of sound is just so painful to listen to that it's hard to approach them. So they'd Overwatch like normal on 6, but they'd be hard to reach, giving them another round of shooting if they got lucky.

 

Thousand Sons, they could trade Rubric Marines for Aspiring Sorcerers for an upgrade cost. So you could take 10 of them, and have just about any mix of Aspiring Sorcerer to Rubric Marine you felt like paying for. MoT powers only.

 

Plague Marines. They're pretty good now, so I don't think I'd mess with them.

 

Possessed Marines would be crazy different if I wrote the codex. Elites 0-1, Dark Apostle would remove the 0-1 Limitation. They'd come in groups of 5, be Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Fearless, and Daemon. They would be forced to take a Mark of Chaos, same Mark for every model in the unit. They could each buy anything from the Melee, Ranged, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chaos Rewards. They could each take whatever they wanted, right? Super cool and over powered? Oh, there is a price to pay for Chaos toys. At the beginning of every round, during the Blessings/Maledictions time period, they would each take a Leadership test, with failure turning them into a Spawn that has the same Mark of Chaos. If joined to a unit when they turn into a Spawn, the unit can keep it as a pet, turning it loose in whatever Movement phase they grew tired of it.

 

Helbrute, I'd rename the Chaos Dreadnought, because I hate the name Helbrute like I hate the name Warpsmith. Because the name Helbrute is stupid. If there is a Warsmith in the army then Chaos Dreadnoughts are scoring.

 

Obliterators: cap them at 5 instead of 3, make them 0-1 Elites. May not be joined by Independent Characters, except War Smiths who take them as retinues.

 

Chosen: give them Infiltrate back

 

Troops

 

Chaos Space Marines: are fine, I guess

 

Cultists: Keep them the same, except give them a new special rule: Expendable. Expendable units may be targeted by shooting by their own army, even when engaged in an assault. Unsaved Wounds from friendly fire taken that round are added to Morale modifier when determining assault results for that round.

 

Fast Attack

 

One pack of Spawn outside of the FOC per HQ choice, no longer a regular FA choice, option to take Mark of Chaos of the HQ that allows them.

 

Warp Talons could assault the turn the arrive from Reserves if they pass a Leadership test. Or maybe Initiative test. Whatever, but they'd have the chance to do that, because it's silly they can't given their fluff description.

 

Heldrake: I'm happy with it, so no changes. Except Rear Armour bumped up to 12, because I just thought about how crazy the Storm Raven is with its Ceramite Plating, tons of ranged weapons, Dreadnought grappling hook, assault ramps, carrying capacity, machine spirit, teleport homer. So screw it, AV12 all around for the Heldrake in the Kingdom of -Max-

 

Raptors: they're fine, I guess.

 

Bikers: they're also fine. Give these guys Outflank USR

 

Heavy Support

 

Havocs: they're OK. Maybe let them purchase an Aegis as a dedicated Fortification, but without the ability to purchase the emplacements for it.

 

Chaos Land Raider: Normal Chaos Land Raider, may also purchase a dedication providing there is an HQ in the army that has the equivalent Mark of Chaos. Terminators taking a Chaos Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport must also have an equivalent Mark of Chaos. Units that are not dedicated to any Chaos god roll a d6 every time that unit embarks or disembarks from a Land Raider that is dedicated to a Chaos god; on a roll of 1, a random, non-character model from the squad suffers a wound with no saves of any kind allowed (the corrupted machine spirit of the Land Raider claims him as a victim!)

 

Dedication to Khorne: Fast, carrying capacity 16, Lascannons become Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolter becomes twin-linked Flamers

Dedication to Nurgle: no carrying capacity, generates d3 Spawn (Mark of Nurgle) or 2d6 Plague Zombies per turn, Lascannons become Maw Cannons, gains It Will Not Die.

Dedication to Slaanesh: carrying capacity 10, Fast, Lascannons become Blastmasters, Heavy Bolters twin-linked Doom Siren, option to take pintle-mounted Sonic Blaster

Dedication to Tzeentch: carrying capacity 10, May force opponent to re-roll any of his penetration and damage result dice. Free Warpflame Gargoyles.

 

Predators and Vindicators: may be taken in squadrons of 1-3

 

Dedicated Tanks

Predators, Rhinos, and Vindicators may also be dedicated to a Chaos god. Units that are dedicated to a different Chaos god than a Rhino may not embark upon that Rhino. Units that are not dedicated to any Chaos god roll a d6 every time that unit embarks or disembarks from a Rhino that is dedicated to a Chaos god; on a roll of 1, a random, non-character model from the squad suffers a wound with no saves of any kind allowed (the corrupted machine spirit of the Rhino claims him as a victim!)

 

Dedication to Khorne: Assault Ramps

Dedication to Nurgle: +1 to front and side Armour

Dedication to Tzeentch: Smoke Launchers can fire every turn instead of just once per game

Dedication to Slaanesh: Fast

 

Forgefiend: I'm guess I'm fine with it. Anything I'd do would probably make it overpowered.

 

Maulerfiend: I've never played with one, so I have no idea if it needs anything to make it better or if it's just right.

 

Defiler: I actually don't think the raise in points is unwarranted, so I wouldn't change it. Except to give it the Hand Rails special rule for free.

 

Special Rule - Hand Rails: Any walker or tank in Codex: Chaos Space Marines that does not have a carrying capacity may purchase Hand Rails. This allows up to 10 Infantry to hang on to the side and ride along. Units may only Embark on a Hand Rail equipped vehicle if they pass a Leadership test. While riding on a vehicle equipped with Hand Rails the unit is clinging on for dear life, and may not make any psychic attacks or shoot ranged weapons. The embarked unit gains a 6+ Invuln save, and the Hand Rail equipped vehicle counts as having an Assault Ramp. Every turn that a unit is embarked on a vehicle that is equipped with Hand Rails, roll a d6 during that vehicles movement phase. On a roll of 1, d3 random, non-character models are removed as casualties, with no saves of any kind allowed, because they have fallen off and been crushed under the treads or feet of the vehicle.

 

How Much Would All This Cost In Points?

 

I have no idea, probably a lot, but I think they're all pretty cool ideas.

[Slayer le Boucher]

When you really look at it, what lacks the Codex isn't really unit wise, well maybe a little, but not only, its also a lack of wargear.

 

Appart from the 2 Deamon Weapons and 6 Artifacts, the Hades Cannon and Baleflammer, there is nothing else, specific to Chaos!

 

Chaos is about material and powerfull rewards!, where is our Khorne's Axes?, the Tzeentch Warp Staffs, the SLaanesh Whips?!

 

WHy is it that here is only one vehicle that can have a Balflamer?, why not a head option for Maulerfiends and Dakka fiends?

 

WHy not having an extra line for Mechaflaglum that says "count as equipped with assault and defensifs grenades" and be done with it.

 

WHy is there no option to rethrow one failed to hit roll against something else then Marines?, every darn HQ in the game can have rerolls from some source, but its been 2 editions that we forgot how to make/use Ornament Spikes...

 

WHy is it that the POwer Scourge for the Defiler cost 25pts?, thats just ridiculous!

 

WHy is there no additional options for LR weapons loadout?, Twin Linked Hades cannons in front and Twin Linked Baleflamer on the sponsons, or vice versa?

 

Why is it that the Dread asn't any other options then a regular SM Dread?, and the crazed rule?, don't get me laughing...

 

Why in the Nine layers of hell din't they give Mark of KHorne the Rampage rule?, while its really more befiting for Khorne's followers?

 

But all in all, all of this could be less worse, if it wasn't for the clonky rules of 6Th Ed...

 

No CHarge in the same turn you disembark?, really?, all the nice CC rules, you lost them even if you can't have another choice then assaulting 2 units(coming in contact with a squad and entering in contact with their transport is considered a multi-assault)...

 

The really dumb and annoying Hull Points rule..., i know vehicles where a tad unbreakable in 5th, but its not a valide enough reason to make them as fragile as a paper sheet in 6th!

 

THey could have done it without the "auto destruct" part of it..., you don't have any HP left?, okay from now on, when taking even glancing damages you roll on the damage chart, and that would be okay.

 

But no, remember, GW stupid habit to nuclearize stuffs from last edition.

[Gargantuan]

"Satisfy our hatred of the current one"

What the :P !?! :yes:

 

Are you guys using the same codex as I am? The new one is much better than the old one!

[the jeske]

A that is hardly a feat B being better then the gav dex doesnt make you good , it doesnt even make you different enough from SW to make the dex a viable one .

 

"Combat Doctrine" (or whatever). If a Lord takes a bike, bikers can be taken as a Troops choice. If a Lord takes a Jump Pack, Raptors can be taken as a Troops choice. If a Lord takes TDA, (regular) Terminators can be taken as a Troops choice.

 

this would mean a rise in price of each of those choices . either terminators/raptors/bikers have to cost more or the lord has to cost more and probably the pack/termi armor should cost more . Runing them without tax is not balanced with the points costs we have now.

Warsmith would be able to drop orbital lance strikes, because just cursing a piece of terrain is kind of pointless and lame. Shatter Defences would go away, replaced by the Lance Strike. He'd also be able to take a retinue of Obliterators outside of the FOC, because that sounds awesome.

40 pts more , have to be static , once per game . no synergy with the repairs, +2sv etc. Still think that keeping him the same and moving him to elite is better.

 

Dark Apostle would have a power better than what he does now. How about the ability to create a wave of Cultists? Say, as long as he's alive he generates d3 squads of 10 Cultists per turn who charge in from the player's table edge? Like that one Tyranid creature that does that. Or if they're zombies they come up straight out of the ground using deepstrike style placement. THAT would make him worth being an HQ, I think.

yeah but the tervigon has rules to "balance" his breeding ability . the number of guants he makes is random , it stops if you roll doubles [on 3d6 there is a rather high chance for that to happen] , it is an MC so cant hide in units [unlike the apostol] and if he dies near guants have brains blown up . To balance d3 10 cultists units per turn or even once per game he would have to cost more , more then 20 cultists . And the units he would summon would have to be naked . no summoning of flamers/units with icons/marks etc .

I'd bring back the Chaos Lieutenant. Just a plain guy in PA, no access to Chaos Artifacts, but otherwise everything that the Chaos Lord can purchase, and he wouldn't have the rule that Chaos Lords have that make a cult troop scoring, or the new rules above. He'd just be an inexpensive way to satisfy the FOC, no other frills necessary.

well a naked sorc costs 65 points . So the Lt problem only exists for those who want to play MSU nurgle with lots of drakes and oblits in small point games . being unabled to take pms is a balancing factor for such lists in this dex . Moving around it by adding an Lt would require us to recost the cult options.

 

Enslaved Daemon: A Chaos Lord may bind a daemon into a regular power weapon. This allows that weapon to strike at Initiative. Pay X points per d6 Attacks added, up to 3d6. During the roll to determine the number of attacks, if one of the dice is showing a 1, the wielder is reduced to WS 1; if two of the dice are showing a 1, the wielder is reduced to WS 1 and Initiative 1; if three of the dice are showing a 1, the wielder maintains his WS and Initiative, but suffers an AP2 Wound as the daemon breaks the enchantment and returns to the Warp (item loses the Enslaved Daemon special rule).

So a khorn lord on a jugger would get 11+2+3 attacks at str 5 . that is kind of a lot . the 3d6 should be . single 1 , i1 ws1 double hit on the head . triple dead lord.

 

I have no idea. Maybe let them shoot Overwatch at their regular ballistic skill. Or give them a special rule, I don't know, "Drop the Bass", that halves all assault rolls, like their wall of sound is just so painful to listen to that it's hard to approach them. So they'd Overwatch like normal on 6, but they'd be hard to reach, giving them another round of shooting if they got lucky.

2 things old psychic choir . all non mos casters using psychic powers within 6" or casting at the nm unit roll their psychic tests at -1Ld. units that auto cast powers are forced to roll if their psychic powers required a roll.

 

If the unit has a blast master , syren and a sonic blaster and it didnt shot in its last turn , then all units trying to charge this unit roll 3d6 for charge and have to pick the lowest 2 for charge range .

 

Bikers: they're also fine. Give these guys Outflank USR

with the lord making them troops and with the new demon weapons hiting for tons of power weapon hits ? you would have to rise their cost by 6-7 pts per model and then they would be crap . They dont need to outflank .

Dedication to Nurgle: +1 to front and side Armour

so av 14 predators . that is a 50pts upgrade at least. and it probably wouldnt be scaled [so a rhino would pay as much as a predator] . it also doesnt go hand in hand with what GW/FW are giving nurgle vehicles . self repair is probably the better way to go here.

[Brother Ambroz]

Wow Max, you took some time writing that! I like pretty much everything you've written. See that's one of the problems, we're just players. We've never been paid to come up with fluff or rules yet some people on this forum have some awesome ideas that should be in our current dex. Why couldn't they take the time to come up with stuff like this??

[Artein]

I'd give an option to take TDA for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons....

[the jeske]

Wow Max, you took some time writing that! I like pretty much everything you've written. See that's one of the problems, we're just players. We've never been paid to come up with fluff or rules yet some people on this forum have some awesome ideas that should be in our current dex. Why couldn't they take the time to come up with stuff like this??

 

well I actualy did playtest for some games back in 2000s. The most limiting factor when you make a new codex are two . First of all the already existing fluff models and the second is stuff that is viewed as tradition[chaos doesnt have plasma cannons or thunder hammers other then on dreads].

 

that is why 1ksons are always going to suck . GW would have to totaly recreate them or dump 1k :wacko: special rules to represent them .

 

I will make an example of such a change.

tzeench is the god of two things . change and magic . what should the 1ksons have ? change[something random to roll on] and magic[we will have the sorc for that] . Now the 1ksons fluff tells us that most of them are automatons and that the sorc are the driving power of the legion . next comes the stuff for a new edition . What do we want in th 6th ? flyers , psychic powers ,warlord traits and random stuff. Ah random stuff. It is also in the tzeench fluff representation .

so what do we do after that . We look how 1ksons were done in the past . d6 die from drain force [meh] 2 wounds[interesting but doesnt tie to the stuff we want] ap 3 bolters[technicly powerful] +4inv on a troop unit. not very random or magicy .

So now we could be like H-man and make a whole page of rules how asp sorc and sorc in general use force tokens to buff their 1ksons , but it is not something we want for this edition . We want simple[which doesnt always mean faster] game play.

 

We cant have another boon table that is too big. But what we can do is something like possessed have . So we take the asp sorc and give him this rule .He can burn his force token to roll on a table . the table is d3 options are " makes the bolters ap2 . make inv +3 till the start of next turn . move the whole 1ksons unit like veil does " . cost of unit stays the same . stats stay the same [we arent planing to change the MoT] . we have random , we have magic . all options are powerful .

 

But the problem for gamers is , if we were GW would do such changes to 1ksons only if 2 things happen . We have new models for 1ksons and if we want to put the focus on 1ksons in the new dex.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Wow Max, you took some time writing that! I like pretty much everything you've written. See that's one of the problems, we're just players. We've never been paid to come up with fluff or rules yet some people on this forum have some awesome ideas that should be in our current dex. Why couldn't they take the time to come up with stuff like this??

 

I always appreciate encouragement! I'm pretty much an insomniac and a maniac, so I spent a couple hours on this when I should have been sleeping. They're just thrown out there as a wishlist with no points added to them, and the Jeske brings up some pretty good critiques for it, some things I definitely didn't think about.

 

"Combat Doctrine" (or whatever). If a Lord takes a bike, bikers can be taken as a Troops choice. If a Lord takes a Jump Pack, Raptors can be taken as a Troops choice. If a Lord takes TDA, (regular) Terminators can be taken as a Troops choice.

 

this would mean a rise in price of each of those choices . either terminators/raptors/bikers have to cost more or the lord has to cost more and probably the pack/termi armor should cost more . Runing them without tax is not balanced with the points costs we have now.

 

What if it were changed to something extra the Lord could purchase per squad? Like "Combat Doctrine - If a Chaos Lord purchases either TDA, a Chaos Bike, or a Jump Pack, then either a Terminator Squad, a Biker squad, or Raptor squad respectively, may be taken as a Troops choice for X/Y/Z points per model."

 

Warsmith would be able to drop orbital lance strikes, because just cursing a piece of terrain is kind of pointless and lame. Shatter Defences would go away, replaced by the Lance Strike. He'd also be able to take a retinue of Obliterators outside of the FOC, because that sounds awesome.

 

40 pts more , have to be static , once per game . no synergy with the repairs, +2sv etc. Still think that keeping him the same and moving him to elite is better.

 

How about this: Warsmith can take either an Orbital Strike Relay, or a "Soul Forge Conclave", or the Obliterator Retinue. Each would be appropriately costed, with the Orbital Strike Relay based on the loyalist version. This would give him three separate roles to play: naval artillery spotter, combat vehicle support, or direct fire support. I agree he should be moved to Elites, so change "Warsmith" to Dark Mechanicus Adept or something like that. Warsmith should be a title reserved for the Iron Warriors, just like Dark Apostle should be a title reserved for the Word Bearers.

 

Soul Forge Conclave: Purchasing the Conclave gives you d3+1 Forge Imps. They sit on 25mm round bases. Each of these can repair a single destroyed weapon, or restore a Hull Point, or remove an Immobilized result, on a repair roll of 3+. Activated during the Blessings/Maledictions phase, the Dark Mechanicus Adept nominates a vehicle and spends any number of tokens toward fixing it. The tokens activated are placed in base contact with the Dark Mechanicus Adept and move as Jump Infantry, and proceed to base contact with the nominated vehicle by the shortest route possible. As soon as they make base to base contact with the nominated vehicle they make their repair roll. Repair effects take place immediately upon a successful roll. The tokens may not be targeted by enemy fire and do not have to make dangerous terrain tests. The Forge Imp tokens can only repair the vehicle they were nominated to repair, and if that vehicle is destroyed before they can make it into base-to-base contact they are removed from play. If a Forge Imp fails the roll to repair the nominated vehicle, they are removed from play.

 

Dark Apostle would have a power better than what he does now. How about the ability to create a wave of Cultists? Say, as long as he's alive he generates d3 squads of 10 Cultists per turn who charge in from the player's table edge? Like that one Tyranid creature that does that. Or if they're zombies they come up straight out of the ground using deepstrike style placement. THAT would make him worth being an HQ, I think.

 

yeah but the tervigon has rules to "balance" his breeding ability . the number of guants he makes is random , it stops if you roll doubles [on 3d6 there is a rather high chance for that to happen] , it is an MC so cant hide in units [unlike the apostol] and if he dies near guants have brains blown up . To balance d3 10 cultists units per turn or even once per game he would have to cost more , more then 20 cultists . And the units he would summon would have to be naked . no summoning of flamers/units with icons/marks etc .

 

So move Dark Apostle to Elites, change the name to Blasphemer Priest, and bring his Cultist generating ability in line with those things that you said. Take away his Independent Character so he couldn't hide in any unit, make him pass a Leadership test to bring in a single unit per turn, losing the ability with any roll he failed, and the units he generated would be 10 Plague Zombies instead of regular Cultists. If he dies, any unit he generated must pass a Leadership test immediately or the sorcery animating them dissipates and the unit is destroyed.

 

I'd bring back the Chaos Lieutenant. Just a plain guy in PA, no access to Chaos Artifacts, but otherwise everything that the Chaos Lord can purchase, and he wouldn't have the rule that Chaos Lords have that make a cult troop scoring, or the new rules above. He'd just be an inexpensive way to satisfy the FOC, no other frills necessary.

 

well a naked sorc costs 65 points . So the Lt problem only exists for those who want to play MSU nurgle with lots of drakes and oblits in small point games . being unabled to take pms is a balancing factor for such lists in this dex . Moving around it by adding an Lt would require us to recost the cult options.

 

This 3.5 codex had 50 point Lieutenants, so I'd give my codex 55 point Lieutenants. I don't know what MSU means, but the point for having a cheap HQ is to spend as much as possible everywhere else. I like the idea of taking a super cheap HQ and two super cheap Troops, and then loading up on vehicles to rain death on the enemy. I don't think it would require a re-cost to Cult units because the Lieutenant couldn't make Cult units Troops, and he couldn't take Artifacts. So no scoring Plague Marines and no Daemon Weapons, so I don't see the issue.

 

Enslaved Daemon: A Chaos Lord may bind a daemon into a regular power weapon. This allows that weapon to strike at Initiative. Pay X points per d6 Attacks added, up to 3d6. During the roll to determine the number of attacks, if one of the dice is showing a 1, the wielder is reduced to WS 1; if two of the dice are showing a 1, the wielder is reduced to WS 1 and Initiative 1; if three of the dice are showing a 1, the wielder maintains his WS and Initiative, but suffers an AP2 Wound as the daemon breaks the enchantment and returns to the Warp (item loses the Enslaved Daemon special rule).

 

So a khorn lord on a jugger would get 11+2+3 attacks at str 5 . that is kind of a lot . the 3d6 should be . single 1 , i1 ws1 double hit on the head . triple dead lord.

 

The Jugger Lord with 3d6 Enslaved Daemon in his Power Weapon would be hella expensive, is how I'd fix that. Also, add your changes to the die results, which do make more sense than mine. Remove the ability to strike at initiative and have them follow the regular melee weapon profiles except for the number of attacks.

 

I have no idea. Maybe let them shoot Overwatch at their regular ballistic skill. Or give them a special rule, I don't know, "Drop the Bass", that halves all assault rolls, like their wall of sound is just so painful to listen to that it's hard to approach them. So they'd Overwatch like normal on 6, but they'd be hard to reach, giving them another round of shooting if they got lucky.

 

2 things old psychic choir . all non mos casters using psychic powers within 6" or casting at the nm unit roll their psychic tests at -1Ld. units that auto cast powers are forced to roll if their psychic powers required a roll.

 

If the unit has a blast master , syren and a sonic blaster and it didnt shot in its last turn , then all units trying to charge this unit roll 3d6 for charge and have to pick the lowest 2 for charge range .

 

I don't really play with Noise Marines, so I didn't have any exciting ideas for them. I am unfamiliar with Psychic Choir, but it sounds good. I like your second suggestion a lot.

 

Bikers: they're also fine. Give these guys Outflank USR

 

with the lord making them troops and with the new demon weapons hiting for tons of power weapon hits ? you would have to rise their cost by 6-7 pts per model and then they would be crap . They dont need to outflank .

 

Having the Chaos Lord pay for each model using "Combat Doctrine" would let them stay cheap for people who wanted to use them as a straight FA choice. You're right about the Outflank USR; I didn't really think that through.

 

Dedication to Nurgle: +1 to front and side Armour

 

so av 14 predators . that is a 50pts upgrade at least. and it probably wouldnt be scaled [so a rhino would pay as much as a predator] . it also doesnt go hand in hand with what GW/FW are giving nurgle vehicles . self repair is probably the better way to go here.

 

How about a Chaos Marine version of Lumbering Behemoth? It gains It Will Not Die, but cannot move Flat Out. Or something like that. I was trying to think of something fluffy that would help Nurgle lists slowly move straight into an enemy. When I think of Nurgle I think of (pop culture) zombies, which are usually depicted as resilient but slow.

[brindley]

Wow I agree Max you had some great ideas. Guys I think the biggest think I would like to have foremost would be the return of Minor Gods and special legion rules for night lords and what not. Is that not what most of us complain about when we talk about the new codex. Second on my list tying to fluff would be returning to favored numbers, hell I still use favoured numbers in my army as a habit.

 

I forget who said it before but asking for stuff like buffing cultists to make their marks free is completely ridiculous! They are good as is, imagine the rage that would come to us if we got 4pt models that had 2 base attacks or 4 T. We need to be fair with asking for changes and if GW ever did do a change it would be adding to our book or doing small FAQ's.

 

I would be so happy if we could get marks for our vehicles! I miss the old dreadnought that could get MoK and two close combat weapons then go nuts. The best idea of those was the dedicated rhinos. If we could give Khorne units assault I would be so happy and could actually use them again.

 

I also think that the chaos book should get some nerfs to let people ease off us a bit. Just think about it, a spell familiar should cost 25 points, that's still fair for what it gives us. I agree with havocs having to be 0-1, maybe allowing 1 daemon engine in your army plus 1 for every "dark tech adept". Maybe 2 of them per adept. And as Jeske said we still shouldn't have certain things that loyalists do, adding to that list artificer armour and possibly drop pods.

 

They NEED to fix the underpowered units in the book if they ever expect us to buy them. Warp talons should be able to assault off deep strike and even then maybe 25 points. Forgefiend and defiler could each be 10 points less or so. Maulerfiends are ugly models I wouldnt want them anyway so i'll ignore them.

 

I like the idea of all possessed being champions of chaos, but they should still be cheaper.

 

The boon table is too big and complex, we don't need random buffs like cause fear with how useless it is. The chosen gaining an actual bonus makes sense as well, and mutliators being replaced with hyper-elite terminators would be SO COOL.

 

I may have missed something but the main point is I want the old special abilities of certain "make your own leagions" back. Do you guys remember the older space marine codex that let you pick the buffs for your made up chapter? That was cool.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Guys I think the biggest think I would like to have foremost would be the return of Minor Gods and special legion rules for night lords and what not. Is that not what most of us complain about when we talk about the new codex.

I agree here, I really liked the days of the 4th ed. codex that had individuality to the Undivided Legions. The problem with returning to that format is that nearly all of the benefits from the old book have become available to everyone! Now anyone can take more than one Obliterator unit (Iron Warriors only in the old codex), Chaos Cultists (Alpha Legion only before), Dark Apostles (Word Bearers only before) etc etc. So you'd have to come up with all new rules for them, or find a way to add their old secondary benefits (extra HS/ FA slot, buying Infiltrate/ extra Cover Save) and then making up a new ability for the Word Bearers seeing as they won't always want to ally themselves with Daemons [Maybe they should be allowed a Troop unit or two of Allied Daemons to count as part of their Primary detachment and be a scoring unit?]

 

I forget who said it before but asking for stuff like buffing cultists to make their marks free is completely ridiculous! They are good as is, imagine the rage that would come to us if we got 4pt models that had 2 base attacks or 4 T.

I'll save you the trouble of re-reading the old posts and say that I mentioned it. The point being that none of the marks are worth taking on Cultists as they are because in nearly every single case it would just be better to take extra Cultists instead (they give you extra wounds AND attacks versus a small benefit from the mark you would have taken. So something HAS to be done about the marks on Cultist squads without meaning that unmarked ones are preferable every single time you aren't using Epidemius (sp?).

 

I would be so happy if we could get marks for our vehicles! I miss the old dreadnought that could get MoK and two close combat weapons then go nuts. The best idea of those was the dedicated rhinos. If we could give Khorne units assault I would be so happy and could actually use them again.

Again, I agree with you, I think it would be nice if the Icons available for Marked units could work on their Vehicles to represent Cult tanks and the like. It was a very flavourful addition to previous codices.

 

I like the idea of all possessed being champions of chaos, but they should still be cheaper.

They should be cheaper but can you imaine how awkward it would be to track individual Possessed once they started making boon rolls? :/

 

The boon table is too big and complex

Yes it is; it should be split into different sections: Close Combat, Shooting, Undivided (available only to unmarked characters/ champions) and one for each of the Gods. Each table should have maybe 3 options in them- when you get to roll on the Boon chart you choose the exact table that you want/ is available to your character/ champion and roll a D3 for it. Really simple and you could even make the Undivided chart one of the better ones so that there's a point to taking unmarked squads again, other than saving points.

[Vesper]

I'm under the impression that the codex is not that well received because it's still pretty bland. Of course there are also a lot of typos and other slot/units issues, but I think the lack of soul is really what people don't accept.

 

So, adding legions rules, cool new units (that obliterator-virus infected LR would be cool, like a badass version of the Redeemer with baleflamers), a decent looking flyer, a drop pod equivalent maybe more stuff in the arsenal... All that stuff would be kinda sweet, along with other changes.

 

EDIT : Oh, and CHOSEN TERMINATORS. Chosen terminators, because come on, I need it.

[the jeske]

This 3.5 codex had 50 point Lieutenants, so I'd give my codex 55 point Lieutenants. I don't know what MSU means, but the point for having a cheap HQ is to spend as much as possible everywhere else. I like the idea of taking a super cheap HQ and two super cheap Troops, and then loading up on vehicles to rain death on the enemy. I don't think it would require a re-cost to Cult units because the Lieutenant couldn't make Cult units Troops, and he couldn't take Artifacts. So no scoring Plague Marines and no Daemon Weapons, so I don't see the issue.

it would because 5man pms with 2 plasma guns are still too good . They should have been nerfed more . If the Lt wouldnt have access to relics and wouldnt make cult units troops , then no one would take him . Again 10 pts difference when you can get a sorc is too small . What would be interesting is a cultists type of HQ . that would be something interesting and something we dont have . I would make him a strickt buff HQ , maybe give him an option to roll on the warlord traits twice . Or give cultists the old tyranid unending swarm rule . Or have rules like a unit of cultists can replace two of its flamers for X[autocannon for example] or units of cultists can buy Y[grande launchers] for Z points .

The Jugger Lord with 3d6 Enslaved Daemon in his Power Weapon would be hella expensive, is how I'd fix that. Also, add your changes to the die results, which do make more sense than mine. Remove the ability to strike at initiative and have them follow the regular melee weapon profiles except for the number of attacks.

hmm something like that is hard to balance imo and unless you want to make the demonic weapon more then 45 pts , he wouldnt cost more then an ax lord . What I would like to see is a cheap demon/rune weapon for all lords/sorc.

simple rules . stats like power weapons[so ax is an ax , sword is a sword etc] . you have three ways to use them . normal power weapon d6 extra A . roll of 1 does X. tier 2 stats change to str 5 d6 extra A .2d6 rolled doubles do Y rolling a 1 does X[effects cumulative so rolling a double 11 would hurt] . tier 3 double str d6 extra A 3d6 rolled doubles do Y , 1 do X triple is dead lord.

How about a Chaos Marine version of Lumbering Behemoth? It gains It Will Not Die, but cannot move Flat Out. Or something like that. I was trying to think of something fluffy that would help Nurgle lists slowly move straight into an enemy. When I think of Nurgle I think of (pop culture) zombies, which are usually depicted as resilient but slow.

that would be interesting.

So move Dark Apostle to Elites, change the name to Blasphemer Priest, and bring his Cultist generating ability in line with those things that you said. Take away his Independent Character so he couldn't hide in any unit, make him pass a Leadership test to bring in a single unit per turn, losing the ability with any roll he failed, and the units he generated would be 10 Plague Zombies instead of regular Cultists. If he dies, any unit he generated must pass a Leadership test immediately or the sorcery animating them dissipates and the unit is destroyed

he would have to be hidden out of LoS all game , because with +3sv he is 3 RL shots away from being instant deathed.

I would change him like this . moved to elite . boon rule removed . Ld bubble changed to 12" , but only works on cultists . still gives hatred to all units .

 

ah and by the way am not looking at the changes from a cool point of view. Am looking at this from GWs point of view for dex in 6th ed.

[TheDarkApostle]

General stuff for 6th edition:

 

Minor and major psychic powers.

 

Major powers are fixed and are at least warp charge 2

 

Minor are rolls on tables and are warp charge 1

 

Chaos:

 

Bring back gift of chaos / fleshy curse

 

Standard armor save for spawn, or ability to buy iron hide / 4+ sv

 

Move dark apostle and warp Smith to elites

 

New HQ choice;

 

Aspiring Champions, 1-3 per HQ slot, MUST be attached to a squad of cultists, access to basic wargear, special rule called enforcer, should the squad he is attached to fail a morale or pinning test he will execute the cultist champion for failure and they will count as passing (ig commissar rule)

 

And i have a small small wish for gibbering hordes as well :P but those can be run by simply playing allies.

 

Land raiders buffed to 12 transport capacity like the basic sm variants also,

 

Otherwise im pretty content for the time being. Obviously thousand sons and the marks of the gods needs some fixing but i need to think abit more over how exactly i would fix them

 

TDA

[Sception]

My own wish list for homebrew stuff, in no particular order:

 

 

I'm all for the shift of smiths & apostles to elites.

 

I'd also like to see cultists worked with slightly, maybe a couple other specialist options (grenades, maybe), the option to upgrade their champion to either marine aspiring champion or a dark mechanicus heretek, maybe the option to infiltrate so long as they remain at minimum size, upping the base cost of the unit but not changing the cost of additional models. Maybe the option to take a few big mutants? Just make the cultists a more interesting, varied, and customizeable unit in general.

 

I'd also like to see some new options for smiths. Maybe make the mechadendrites an optional upgrade, and let them choose from a few different unique dark mechanicus options. Wide range teleport homer that works for allied daemons, orbital lance strike, kai gun, maybe a servitor retinue, etc. I'd also like to see an Iron Warriors themed 3 wound special character HQ version.

 

For the Apostle, I'd like to see the leadership aura upped to 12", and make the hatred into 'eternal hatred' fantasy style - with re-rolls every round of combat instead of just the first.

 

I'd like to see stubborn and hatred: loyalist marines made into default special rules for all chaos marine units (not cultists, etc, just the actual marines and maybe the helbrute as well). If they weren't so stubborn, they wouldn't have turned from the emperor in the first place, and even new traitors hate the loyalist marines who represent everything the were and have lost and now rage against. I feel this would help define the character of the chaos marines as a faction and serve to offset the built in advantages of loyalist marines. I wouldn't charge extra points for it in most cases, although I think Chaos Bikes could stand to be a couple more points to start, and have to pay extra for their CC weapons like basic CSMs do as well.

 

I'd change 'vets of the last war' from hatred to preferred enemy, and even out its points to maybe 1 for power armored units, 2 for terminator armored units, 5 for characters and vehicles with marine crew (ie, not daemon engines)? Maybe more than that, I'm not sure.

 

New gift of chaos: "weapon possession", can be purchased by lord, sorcerer, daemon prince, 15ish points. Upgrades one power weapon or generic melee weapon to have the 'daemon weapon' special rule.

 

Change to Abaddon: makes terminators troops instead of chosen, Drachnyen is AP1, S+2, specialist, unwieldy, and has the 'smash' and daemon weapon special rules. Talon is AP3, x2 attacks, specialist, shred, and rending.

 

New transport options:

 

Dread Claw, available to any Chaos Marine (not cultists, etc) units & dreadnought. Basically make them drop pods, imo FW rules are more hassle than they're worth. Theory: we always should have had these. There was never a time when we shouldn't have had these. Why do we have vindicators and not these?

 

new Daemon Engine assault transport tank, AV12,11,10, daemonic possession standard, capacity 12, available to CSM power armored elites (cult units + chosen). Theory: this is 6e. Expensive assault infantry needs assault transports, inbuilt speed buffs, or deployment options. Berzerkers and possessed need this, and we should have seen this instead of the fiends.

 

changes to Land Raider: default no sponsons, hull mounted TLHB, capacity 16. Can take sponson H.Flamers (free), reapers (free), or lascannons (a few points), but lowers capacity to 12. Can take sponson Ectoplasma, (some points), but lowers capacity to 8. Hull mounted TLHB can be upgraded to multimelta (some points), hades autocannon (some points), baleflamer (some points) or demolisher cannon (some points, loses assault ramp). Maybe add an option for crusader-style frag launchers. Theory: like the predator, where loyalists have various prescribed configurations, chaos teks just put the guns they want or have on their tanks haphazardly.

 

Dread/hellbrute: can take drop pod, can take vets (described above), access to vehicle armory, some sort of marks.

 

Mauler: dropped completely or: has that rule for extra attacks when outnumbered, shift to fast attack, front AV13 on fiends in general, same or slightly more points

 

Forgefiend: dropped completely or: AV13 front, same points

 

Defiler: AV13 front, same points

 

Heldrake: maybe up the points cost, maybe twin link the hades canon to make it a more competitive option next to the baleflamer.

 

Dark Apotheosis: the character keeps any options that a daemon prince would normally have been able to take (psychic powers, artifacts - including special character unique artifacts, etc). If the character was engaged in close combat, the prince is placed in base contact with the enemy unit within 3" of the character, or as near as possible if there is no room.

 

 

IMO, marks, Icons, & cult units require heavier re-thinking than I've done at this point.

[TheDarkApostle]

Just remembered, honestly i'd like to see both dark apothesis and spawndoom removed. I see both as far to major things to happen just that randomly. Especially daemonhood, it has always been something increadibly hard to archieve, even for the greatest warlords of chaos.

 

Much rather a "path to daemonhood" which would buff some stats and make the model cause fear. And stupidity instead of spawndoom just like in fantasy.

 

TDA

[the jeske]

I would like maulers to have two ways of hiting. one normal high str low ap strike with normal number of A it has now [the way it is now] and another one some sort of aoe . maybe a str6 ap 4 hit to all models in btb or something like that . That or rework how wrath works for MCs and walkers . Technicly it is a rule that should be mirroring WFB stomp.

[Sception]

Maybe instead of terminator troops for abaddon (afaik, he's not known for leading armies of 'just' terminators), perhaps give him 'heroic intervention' when he deep strikes with a unit of terminators, as a callback to old 'speartip' tactics?

[Aidoneus]

Just my two cents. For what it's worth, I've played Chaos for 11 years now, but only played my first four games with the new codex over the past two days.

 

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with the new dex. It's no 3.5 'dex, which is sad, but we can't judge every single new codex against that one. Judged on its own merits it seems balanced, varied, and fun. Sure, I have my gripes with some things in there, and I'd like to see some changes, but we can't all get absolutely everything we want. The point is that it's a big improvement on what we had, it's competitive, and it allows people to play lots of unique, personalized armies.

 

Second, and perhaps more importantly for this discussion, I have found that fan 'dexes are lots of fun to write, but they always seems to fall apart when you actually go to play games with them. The problem is just finding people to play against. A few years ago, I lead a big project to update the old Daemonhunters codex. A lot of people online worked on it, and we were pretty happy with the results. They weren't even big changes; just little tweaks. But when it came time to playtest, no one could find opponents willing to play against the homebrew 'dex. So the whole project just fizzled and died.

 

Basically, if you think you'll have fun making a fan 'dex, by all means go for it. Just be forewarned that no matter how much work you put in, it might never see the tabletop.

[Brother Ambroz]

That's a really neat idea jeske. I'm sorta suprised they didn't add something similiar in the real dex.

[the jeske]

wait till you see the eldar dex and wright lords with warmahordes circular strike :mellow: built in if they take swords.