Cult Units as Elites

[Brother Amarel]

taking zerkers or pms forces you to run specific HQs , that is never good

Depends how good that HQ is (or can be). I'm having a lot of fun with a Nurgle Biker Lord with Powerfist & Lightning Claw (with SoC & Blights (just in case) to round him out). He's cheap enough to pair with Huron, opens up PM's and with his entourage (including semi-kitted A/C and double Melta) is a right pita.

[the jeske]

taking zerkers or pms forces you to run specific HQs , that is never good

Depends how good that HQ is (or can be). I'm having a lot of fun with a Nurgle Biker Lord with Powerfist & Lightning Claw (with SoC & Blights (just in case) to round him out). He's cheap enough to pair with Huron, opens up PM's and with his entourage (including semi-kitted A/C and double Melta) is a right pita.

 

yes , but non of our hqs are that good . Huron is great till we run in to rune priests. biker lords are less killy then khorn lords , but the biggest problem is that , if we run him and huron we are giving up one whole phase in the game . That is always bad . The real problem with chaos is that it need 3 HQ slots and 4 hvy slots to work most optimal and unlike other meq we cant battle brother in other marines . Also there is one more problem . It isnt one for me , but for some people it may be one . Some people dont play nurgle , because their legion aint nurgle .

[Brother Amarel]

taking zerkers or pms forces you to run specific HQs , that is never good

Depends how good that HQ is (or can be). I'm having a lot of fun with a Nurgle Biker Lord with Powerfist & Lightning Claw (with SoC & Blights (just in case) to round him out). He's cheap enough to pair with Huron, opens up PM's and with his entourage (including semi-kitted A/C and double Melta) is a right pita.

 

yes , but non of our hqs are that good . Huron is great till we run in to rune priests. biker lords are less killy then khorn lords , but the biggest problem is that , if we run him and huron we are giving up one whole phase in the game . That is always bad . The real problem with chaos is that it need 3 HQ slots and 4 hvy slots to work most optimal and unlike other meq we cant battle brother in other marines . Also there is one more problem . It isnt one for me , but for some people it may be one . Some people dont play nurgle , because their legion aint nurgle .

All true, but without access to Divination on our Sorcs I think that the guaranteed bonus from Huron is difficult to ignore (anything that guarantees an effect in a codex based on the randomness of the Chaos Gifts is worthwhile) - I do try and run a Sorc every now and then, but he never seems to do as much Huron.

 

I agree on either needing three HQ, or having Marked Sorcs open up Marked Units as Troops, or being able to buy Warlord Traits.

 

The last point I don't think is a truly valid reason anymore - the Chaos 'Dex isn't there for creating the Legions anymore, it's there to play Black Legion or Renegades (much like C:SM is for Ultra's and the less well represented Chapters). If someone isn't going to use Nurgle, then they need to accept that they're not making the best use of the Codex.

[the jeske]

but it is random . If I could take divination on huron or even have divination possible the way oblits switch weapons[so every other turn] it would be ok . but it is not , it is rolled for and I cant replace powers I roll with base powers , I may end up with a 2 token power I wont even be able to use. Now am not saying huron is bad . IMO he is the best of all chaos HQ .army utility > personal choppines. prime example being cortez.

 

The last point I don't think is a truly valid reason anymore

I think it is . Because good or bad people still try . People try to build armies around 1ksons . But I agree with you that not playing BL makes littttttle sense.

[Brother Amarel]

but it is random . If I could take divination on huron or even have divination possible the way oblits switch weapons[so every other turn] it would be ok . but it is not , it is rolled for and I cant replace powers I roll with base powers , I may end up with a 2 token power I wont even be able to use. Now am not saying huron is bad . IMO he is the best of all chaos HQ .army utility > personal choppines. prime example being cortez.

Sorry, I was unclear - I meant that Master of Deception is guaranteed (even if the number of Infiltrators isn't), so I can at least plan around it with Primary, Secondary and Tertiary options (be it Infiltrate set-up or Outflank).

[Purge]

When I read the topic my first thought was that you were looking for a new entry into the codex that allows for a slightly better cultist unit. When Cultitsts were announced, that is what I hoped for. Well 2 things. I like the idea of a shield of cheap models to screen the rest of your force, but I also hoped for a unit that could infiltrate and have special weapons. Imagine a unit of 30 cultists with combi plasma showing up. Maybe as 3 units of 10. Or split them 50/50 with combi melta. They arn't going to get more then one shot anyway, but that volume of shots would cause some big problems.

I can imagine a Gray Knights army getting wiped out turn 1 by some lucky rolls if this was allowed.

[Lieutenant Steel]

I can imagine a Gray Knights army getting wiped out turn 1 by some lucky rolls if this was allowed.

Which is probably why it isn't allowed... :huh:

 

Back OT:

 

I can just say that I think Cult units are not good as Elites for a handful of simple reasons:

 

1) They cannot count as scoring units (without additional points, and a HQ slot being used which = a points sink. Making a good unit great is one thing but making a bad unit average isn't usually worth it when you can just buy an average unit from the beginning and have it cost you less points/ FoC slots).

 

2) They compete with units which can perform their role, or a very similar one, for roughly the same amount of points.

 

3) Usually this other unit (Terminators for example) have more options, which allows them to perform multiple tasks rather than the single role that each Cult unit is specialised for.

 

4) Elite slots, by default because there are less of them, are more 'valuable'. Despite our other Elites not being taken regularly I would still say that there is more chance you will need three Elite slots than there is needing 6 Troop slots- i.e. if you wanted to run Termicide/ Mutilator disruption tactics.

 

EDIT: So at the end of the day if you wanted to run them as Elites, nothing is stopping you, but you can't say that using them in this manner is going to have any positive benefit; if you use them as Elites then they you have to know going into it that you will be handicapping yourself, even if only a little bit.

[Plaguecaster]

I reckon I would take Plague Marines as Elites though only if I took 6 plague zombie hordes as Plague marines are pretty good plus with 6 squad of 35 zombies as scoring who needs anything else.

[Rain]

To take said plague zombie hordes you would have to take Typhus who also makes plague marines troops sooo yeah. Which is kind of the thing, the only reason you would take cult units as elites is if either A.) you are new/don't understand the game very well or B.) you are obstinate and trying to be a special little snowflake. I mean there just isn't a reason for it especially as Lords are actually good now and it's not like they have a lot of competition from other HQ choices, I mean I guess there's Huron who is nifty for his infiltrate trait, but then you can still take a Lord with whatever mark to make a cult into troops.

 

Sure that means if you wanted to take two different cults the other would be elites but why would this even happen? I mean other than in a large game you aren't going to be able to reasonably fit two different cults along with necessary heavy support and utility units (like bikes/spawn to escort Lord etc) in anything resembling a focused army and in a big game you can just field another detachment so it becomes moot. I mean this is like arguing about why it's a bad idea to only take two naked 10 man cultist squads as your troops choices, it's just obviously bad and there is not even a big opportunity cost to changing, it's just bad for the sake of bad.

[the jeske]

I reckon I would take Plague Marines as Elites though only if I took 6 plague zombie hordes as Plague marines are pretty good plus with 6 squad of 35 zombies as scoring who needs anything else.

if yout takig zombis then you took tyfus and tyfus made plague marines troops and cant be taken as elite.

[Plaguecaster]

Thanks Jeske I feel like such an idiot..... Ok then cult troops are not good as elites then

[Azekai]

Ok then cult troops are not good as elites

Reading through this thread has been interesting. The above quote seems to be the general impression that the Chaos community espouses, but it is good to see precisely why we all think that cult elites =/= useful.

[the jeske]

all cult units are marked .this limits the HQs you can run with those units . 2 of them suck with or without HQs . out of those that dont suck automaticly . one are plasma platforms and the other one is pure melee units . now melee units in 6th have to realy be over the top to be worth it . zerkers are not over the top . it is not possible to make a death star out of them , they dont have an edge over other good melee units and they have huge problems[on top of the normal 6th random charge range] with getting in to assault . this leaves the pms which make little sense as elite as we are taking them to either get cheap resilient plasma or we take them to get even cheaper msu plasma . when run as elites they cant capture objectives , you cant run nurgle lords or tygus because it auto shifts them to troops and if someone wants non scoring plasma then he may as well run chosen , they get more plasma per model or terminators which give resiliance[+2sv] and much better melee[power weapons].

[Lepaca]

Ok then cult troops are not good as elites

Reading through this thread has been interesting. The above quote seems to be the general impression that the Chaos community espouses, but it is good to see precisely why we all think that cult elites =/= useful.

 

5 out of 6 missions are won by scoring units. This makes troops the most important troop section. FA and HS units also at least have the chance to be scoring (and are filled with plainly better units in the CSM dex) which makes it preferable to fill them up before you take Elite units.

This is what makes Cult units in the Elite slot unattractive... Part of their appeal is their ability to score. Take that away and they are just not good enough.