null zone and deny the witch

[The Unknown Father]

simple question but can´tfind a proper answer. deny the witch can be used against null zone? and how? squad by squad or one roll for the whole power?

 

thanks

[Haranin]

Its in an odd position right now; the power is cast on the librarian, "passively". Passive buffs generally cannot be denied (eldar, space puppies) are exceptions); one of the big reasons why divination is so awesome. The other being that the default power is good.

 

Powers that directly effect the enemy generally allow for deny the witch. Null Zone, as a pre edition power occupies an odd zone, as a passive buff it shouldn't be able to be denied, but it does effect the enemy directly like a malediction, which means it should be deniable.

 

Its a pretty unclear situation which GW hasn't cleaned up yet.

 

Talk about with your opponent pregame.

[Seahawk]

Does it target the enemy unit? If not, then no Deny the Witch. Pre-6th powers do not have a power type, and as such it is not a Malediction/Nova either, so again with no enemy target, there's no denying it.

[pyroknight]

By RAW, you cannot take deny the witch against Null zone.

 

I recommend talking it over with your opponent before the game however, as my gaming group has houseruled that it can be saved.

[DarkGuard]

Don't see any reason for a houserule. It targets the psyker, therefore no Deny the Witch. That simple. It's not even RAI supposed to allow it, because if it were GW would have made sure it was in the first FAQ. Works fine how it is.

[alex567]

Don't see any reason for a houserule. It targets the psyker, therefore no Deny the Witch. That simple. It's not even RAI supposed to allow it, because if it were GW would have made sure it was in the first FAQ. Works fine how it is.

 

I think it's more to do with the fact that it affects many units and there is no way of stopping it. With the removal of psychic hood rules from 5th ed, it is a pretty powerful power.

 

I personally would allow a single deny the witch role using the best deny the witch available in the radius, i.e. if a sorceror was within the radius you would use him to deny it.

[Seahawk]

Still, nothing but a houserule that nobody needs to follow. :P

[dswanick]

Here's the two cases, as I see them:

Case 1> Null Zone affects the units within 24" of the Librarian.

- Null Zone can be nullified by Deny the Witch. It would seem to me that each unit would get its own DtW roll, per BRB Pg.68.

- Subsequent movement of the Librarian would not change which units are affected by a particular casting of the power.

Case 2> Null Zone affects the Librarian.

- Null Zone would not be nullified by Deny the Witch rolls.

- Movement by the Librarian would alter which units are within 24" of him.

 

Personally, I lean towards Case 1 for several reasons:

- The first sentence of rules about Null Zone identify when the power is cast. The second sentence is worded as if to identify the target of the power - "All enemy units within 24" of the Librarian must"

- The power doesn't do anything to the Librarian, it does something to the units within 24" of him. There's just no way I can rationalize claiming that it is a Benediction-type (affecting the caster), and not a Malediction-type (affecting the units within 24" of the caster).

 

But it is vague and poorly written for 6th Ed, the the best RAW answer is probably discuss it before the game or dice off for it.

[goosey_j]

Personally, I don't DtW works against Null Zone. It's in the wording of the power that it doesn't target anyone. It says "All enemy units within 24" must", not "Targets all enemy units within 24 inches", therefore implying that the psyker is projecting a bubble, and not specifically targeting enemies. In the BRB it says "If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to deny the witch before the psychic power is resolved". Since we've established Null Zone doesn't target anything, no DtW rolls can be made.

If that alone isn't enough, the BRB gives us pretty specific description of what declaring a charge involves. It states "if the psychic power requires a target, you must nominate it now." Null Zone does not require that you nominate a target, ergo the power doesn't target anything, therefore no DtW.

 

I don't really see any argument against this. It's all there in the rules.

[Lysere]

I have never seen Null Zone as a power that Deny the Witch can be used against. Again the first question, does this power specifically target a squad that I control? If not you do not roll deny the witch, if yes you do. Null Zone is a power cast by the Librarian that then extends to all enemies within 24" and will move as he does.

 

This does not mean the power is impossible to stop, Black Templar running with Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch as their vow can shut it down (because it specifically mentions powers that include them in it's area of affect) as well as runic weapons from the space wolves. Both of these cases however are because the rule they have gives them the ability to target psychic powers that they normally couldn't target with deny the witch.

 

Also a power may only ever be stopped once, either it works in full or not at all, so Dswanick case 1 is an impossible situation.

[Fibonacci]

Also a power may only ever be stopped once, either it works in full or not at all, so Dswanick case 1 is an impossible situation.

 

Try reading the rules that dswanick referenced first.  Don't go on what you think they should be.

page 68, top of the right hand side.

[Lysere]

 

Also a power may only ever be stopped once, either it works in full or not at all, so Dswanick case 1 is an impossible situation.

 

Try reading the rules that dswanick referenced first.  Don't go on what you think they should be.

page 68, top of the right hand side.

I'll look when I can, but Null zone isn't targeting a squad to begin with, nor is its functions covered in the Rulebook at all. It is neither a malediction nor a blessing. It is Null Zone and works only as C:SM says. It is most similar to a malediction true, but since it does not say it is a malediction you have to use it's own rules to figure out how it works. Since it does not target a specific squad but is instead a large area that is not fixed in anyway then it can not be stopped by Deny the Witch.

 

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before but I forget where that one went.

[dswanick]

does this power specifically target a squad that I control?

It doesn't specifically target anything(your squads or the Librarian), thus the problem

Null Zone is a power cast by the Librarian that then extends to all enemies within 24" and will move as he does.

That is an assumption on your part. Nowhere in the power does it specify that it will move with the Librarian or change what squads are affected based on his position after casting the power. If it said that then it would clearly be "targeting" the Librarian and therefore nto Deny-able. As it is silent on the matter (your assumptinos aside) then it is open to either interpretation.

[Lysere]

 

does this power specifically target a squad that I control?

It doesn't specifically target anything(your squads or the Librarian), thus the problem.

 

Actually that right there should be your answer. Since it did not target your squad you can't roll Deny the Witch. Your squad is simply caught up in it. (If someone with a rulebook on them could quote deny the witch this would be easier but I am nowhere near one)

[dswanick]

 

 

does this power specifically target a squad that I control?

It doesn't specifically target anything(your squads or the Librarian), thus the problem.

 

Actually that right there should be your answer. Since it did not target your squad you can't roll Deny the Witch. Your squad is simply caught up in it. (If someone with a rulebook on them could quote deny the witch this would be easier but I am nowhere near one)

No, "if it does not target your squads you can't roll a Deny the Witch".  But if it does target all units within 24" of the Librarian, you should be able to roll.  As was pointed out several months ago in this thread.  However Null Zone was written for 5th Edition, and is vague on the specific mechanic involved - which is now very important in 6th.

[Fibonacci]

 

 

Also a power may only ever be stopped once, either it works in full or not at all, so Dswanick case 1 is an impossible situation.

 

Try reading the rules that dswanick referenced first.  Don't go on what you think they should be.

page 68, top of the right hand side.

I'll look when I can, but

So which rules have you read and which are you just guessing at?

[Lysere]

The question is does it target your squad, there is no doubt that the power does indeed affect your squads, in fact all of them within 24" of the Librarian, but who is the target? Does it mention a target at all? The power itself (Last I read) does not target a unit, it happens, occurs, whatever you will. The Librarian draws out the warp and causes an effect to all surrounding enemies, but he never once targets them.

 

Because of this I understand it not cause Deny the Witch. Also there is the problem of what happens once he casts it, the power is focused on him, spread out 24" from his model. If he moves would squads now hit by it roll Deny the Witch? What about in the other players turn when he moves into range of it. When does the Deny the Witch trigger in relation to this power?

 

As far as my memory serves me the rule for Deny the Witch goes something like this.

 

1. Psyker declares use of power and expends 1 warp charge.

2. Psyker then makes his Ld check.

3. Assuming he doesn't fail his ld check power activates.

 

At this point if the power in question is being targeted at a specific unit then the unit in question immediately rolls Deny the Witch. If the Deny the Witch roll is failed then the power activates as normal.

 

Null Zone however is never called upon to target a unit as established. If it targeted a specific unit it would say such in the rules for Null Zone. Null Zone does not declare a target however and as such should never trigger a standard Deny the Witch roll.

 

Like I asked before if somebody could please pull out a rulebook and drag the line in question from deny the witch into here it would be easier to discuss. C:SM would help as well.

 

(Picked a fine day to not bring my books with me)

 

 

 

 

 

Also a power may only ever be stopped once, either it works in full or not at all, so Dswanick case 1 is an impossible situation.

 

Try reading the rules that dswanick referenced first.  Don't go on what you think they should be.

page 68, top of the right hand side.

I'll look when I can, but

So which rules have you read and which are you just guessing at?

 

I've read all the rules but without the book in question in my hands they are all just from memory and subject to being a bit off.

[Raeven]

If you think of it like a template weapon, the "Target" is all enemy units within 24" of the Librarian.

[Seahawk]

"If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic  power is resolved."

 

"If a psychic power targets two or more units, each affected unit can attempt to Deny the Witch - only those that fail will suffer the effects of the psychic power."

 

 

"POWERS WITHOUT A TYPE

If a psychic power does not have a type, the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry."

 

 

So, as I stated in the second response to this thread, you follow the rules as written in the codex. Does the codex say you "target" enemy units? No. Therefore, there's no denying the witch. 

[Leonaides]

If you think of it like a template weapon, the "Target" is all enemy units within 24" of the Librarian.

Unfortunately this is just inventing a rule to support your side of a discussion. Mephiston casts Sword Of Snag (making him S10), then hits and wounds a chaos lord (whp fails his save). Does Chaos lord get a 'Deny the witch' roll to avoid instant death? Of course he doenst, even though he is suffering an effect casued by a psychic power (instant death due to S double T). If Mephiston didnt cast SoS, but instead tried to force weapon ID the Chaos Lord he would get a DtW save though.

 

The only target of Null Zone is the Librarian, other models are simply affected by it adn it'll go away in a few months anyway.

[dswanick]

"If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic  power is resolved."

 

"If a psychic power targets two or more units, each affected unit can attempt to Deny the Witch - only those that fail will suffer the effects of the psychic power."

 

 

"POWERS WITHOUT A TYPE

If a psychic power does not have a type, the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry."

 

 

So, as I stated in the second response to this thread, you follow the rules as written in the codex. Does the codex say you "target" enemy units? No. Therefore, there's no denying the witch. 

But neither does it say it targets the Librarian, thus the debate. One valid reading is that it targets all enemy units within 24", which would allow DtW rolls. If it were targeted on the Librarian (negating DtW) and then resolved as an aura, it would only affect models within 24" would it not?

[Lysere]

Whether or not the power targets the Librarian or not does not matter, a power does not require a target to work. There is nothing in the rules that says a power must declare something as a target to work.

 

Now then, Deny the Witch.

 

 

"If a Psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch..."

 

Onto Null Zone.

 

 

"... All enemy units within 24" of the Librarian must re-roll successful invulnerable saves for the remainder of the player turn."

 

I highlighted to key words here. The rule for Deny the Witch requires that an enemy unit is Targeted. Null Zone does not declare a target though, it tells us that enemy models within 24" will have to re-roll invuln saves, but it never declares a target. It establishes an effect, in what condition a unit will fall under it, and how long it lasts. (As well as the phase it is cast in but I cut that out) 

 

Psychic Shooting attacks must target an enemy, maledictions must target an enemy, Null Zone is neither, and targets nothing directly. It tells us what happens, and why it happens, this does not mean a squad under it's affect has been targeted.

 

A Blast weapon may hit a unit it didn't target, does that make the new unit the "target" for additional shooting from that unit? No, we all know that, and psychic powers are no different.

 

Want a better example? How about misfortune. (The BRBs replacement for null zone)

 

 

"Misfortune is a malediction that Targets a single enemy unit..."

 

The power itself says it is targeted, therefore it can be denied. Null Zone makes no such distinction.

[goosey_j]

Beautifully said.

 

And a good thing too really. You guys read the new daemon codex? It. is. nasty. All units have guarenteed 5+ Invulns, that can be boosted to 3+ by an item on a roll of 3+. And one of the special characters, Kairos Fateweaver can allow that result to be rerolled once per turn, if he chooses. So pretty damn high chance of army wide +3 invulns.

[Seahawk]

Actually, not at all. Everyone gets a 5+. One magic item has a 67% chance of giving a unit a 3+, or 33% to give it a 6+. Kairos merely allows you to reroll it if you fail it, so it still only affects a single unit. Defeinitly not army-wide.

[goosey_j]

You're completely right. I have no idea how I read that as effecting every unit in the army.