null zone and deny the witch

[Dam13n]

@leonaides - you can't DtW against force weapons either because activating them affects all wounds caused by the Psyker, it doesn't target the enemy model/unit directly, instead it is cast on the force weapon, giving it the instant death USR.

 

It also states clearly in the Force USR that it cannot be denied.

[dswanick]

I highlighted to key words here. The rule for Deny the Witch requires that an enemy unit is Targeted. Null Zone does not declare a target though, it tells us that enemy models within 24" will have to re-roll invuln saves, but it never declares a target. It establishes an effect, in what condition a unit will fall under it, and how long it lasts. (As well as the phase it is cast in but I cut that out) 

 

Psychic Shooting attacks must target an enemy, maledictions must target an enemy, Null Zone is neither, and targets nothing directly. It tells us what happens, and why it happens, this does not mean a squad under it's affect has been targeted.

 

A Blast weapon may hit a unit it didn't target, does that make the new unit the "target" for additional shooting from that unit? No, we all know that, and psychic powers are no different.

I'm not sure you want to bring the Shooting phase concept of "targeting" into a debate about "targeting" a Psychic Power. Especially not when you also make these statements:

-"Psychic Shooting attacks must target an enemy"

-"Null Zone does not declare a target though, it tells us that enemy models within 24" will have to re-roll invuln saves, but it never declares a target"

Because I would then point out the FAQs on C:SW Jaws of the World Wolf and C:BA Blood Lance.

- neither power "declares a target" prior to casting, but simply tells you how to determine affected models once the power is cast.

- both are FAQd to retroactively "set" a target declaration after determining the first unit affected by the already cast power.

So the concepts encompassed by Psychic Power "targeting" bear little direct resemblance to Shooting phase "targeting".

[Lysere]

I highlighted to key words here. The rule for Deny the Witch requires that an enemy unit is Targeted. Null Zone does not declare a target though, it tells us that enemy models within 24" will have to re-roll invuln saves, but it never declares a target. It establishes an effect, in what condition a unit will fall under it, and how long it lasts. (As well as the phase it is cast in but I cut that out)

Psychic Shooting attacks must target an enemy, maledictions must target an enemy, Null Zone is neither, and targets nothing directly. It tells us what happens, and why it happens, this does not mean a squad under it's affect has been targeted.

A Blast weapon may hit a unit it didn't target, does that make the new unit the "target" for additional shooting from that unit? No, we all know that, and psychic powers are no different.

I'm not sure you want to bring the Shooting phase concept of "targeting" into a debate about "targeting" a Psychic Power. Especially not when you also make these statements:

-"Psychic Shooting attacks must target an enemy"

-"Null Zone does not declare a target though, it tells us that enemy models within 24" will have to re-roll invuln saves, but it never declares a target"

Because I would then point out the FAQs on C:SW Jaws of the World Wolf and C:BA Blood Lance.

- neither power "declares a target" prior to casting, but simply tells you how to determine affected models once the power is cast.

- both are FAQd to retroactively "set" a target declaration after determining the first unit affected by the already cast power.

So the concepts encompassed by Psychic Power "targeting" bear little direct resemblance to Shooting phase "targeting".

Of course both of those powers are "shooting attacks" which are normally required to target something anyway. If the exact ruling for them do not require a "target" to activate then you could argue Deny does not work on them. As I own neither Codex, and the question at hand is not about either of those I will stick to both what the rule book says and what has been asked.

If you wish to argue that those two do not get denied go right ahead as I lack those books. Just remember it doesn't really matter since the ruling for either of those have Absolutely Zero affect on whether or not Null Zone can be denied. Rules for this question will come from C:SM and the Core Rulebook. Also I'm not overly familiar with the exact rules for using any psychic shooting attack, and since both of those are, and require declaring a target to work in the first place I'm sure they get denied. If I feel like it I'll peek at the FAQs at some point but since A) no one at my LGS really uses those, and they do not matter for the question at hand I probably won't.

[dswanick]

Just remember it doesn't really matter since the ruling for either of those have Absolutely Zero affect on whether or not Null Zone can be denied. Rules for this question will come from C:SM and the Core Rulebook. Also I'm not overly familiar with the exact rules for using any psychic shooting attack, and since both of those are, and require declaring a target to work in the first place I'm sure they get denied. If I feel like it I'll peek at the FAQs at some point but since A) no one at my LGS really uses those, and they do not matter for the question at hand I probably won't.

Well, since you're married to your interpretation, and don't wish to be bothered with contrary information - I'll leave you to it.

[Lysere]

Just remember it doesn't really matter since the ruling for either of those have Absolutely Zero affect on whether or not Null Zone can be denied. Rules for this question will come from C:SM and the Core Rulebook. Also I'm not overly familiar with the exact rules for using any psychic shooting attack, and since both of those are, and require declaring a target to work in the first place I'm sure they get denied. If I feel like it I'll peek at the FAQs at some point but since A) no one at my LGS really uses those, and they do not matter for the question at hand I probably won't.

Well, since you're married to your interpretation, and don't wish to be bothered with contrary information - I'll leave you to it.

Just pointing out that the FAQ for a different codex, and completely unrelated powers will not change the rule for Null Zone. Just might give Jaws and Blood Lance some arguments against being denied. Also again both of those powers are psychic shooting attack which require the declaration of a target, which is just the first model it touches according to the FAQs. (Again don't have those dexs on hand)

Also I wouldn't mind if Null Zone was normally deniable, but I see no reason where it would trigger, and then keeping track of the sheer number of individual denies made, and who made them, then heaven forbid the librarian moves, it's also 100 times easier to just say you don't get one.

Also I need to make a mental note to not follow a capital B with a )