2+ cover saves for Black Knights + LS Vengeance

[L30n1d4s]

I know it is just rumors at this point (salt added), but they seem pretty firm, based on the WD notes we are getting in on the Rumor thread.

 

Now, tell me if I am missing something here, but if I think this through properly we have:

 

-LS Vengeance can get the special Shrine which gives all units within 12" Stealth

-Ravenwing Black Knights have Skilled Rider, which give them +1 to their Jink Save

-Black Knights are Bikes, so they get Jink (5+ cover save if move, 4+ if Turbo boost)

 

If you move the LS Vengeance Flat-out and accompany it with a unit of Black Knights that Turbo-boost, you should have:

 

Black Knights --- Stealth + Skilled Rider + Jink + Turbo-boost = 2+ cover save

LS Vengeance --- Shrouded + Jink + Flat Out = 2+ cover save

 

So, on turn 1, you could theoretically Turbo-boost/Move Flat out with this combo and be in the enemy's face for a turn 2 charge by the Black Knights AND have a 2+ cover save for the whole group, making them very likely to survive at least until turn 2.

 

Even if you do not Turboboost/go Flat Out, they would all receive at least a 3+ cover save just for moving, which is very respectable.

 

Anyone else see this or have any reason it would not work?

 

I know the Codex hasn't come out yet, meaning all this is still somewhat theoryhammer, but I think these rumors are solid enough to speculate on tactics with right now.

[Phaeton]

Yes. And speeders with ruins and stealth gets 3+ coversave. And regular bikes gets 4+ in the open ground. Ravenwing looks like very complex and competitive now.

[Ronin_eX]

I'm loving that the Ravenwing are back to being prime offensive units rather than just scouts. A shooty unit that can get a base 4+ cover save where ever it sits is nasty. Being able to upgrade to a 3+ cover (or 2+ while turbo-boosting) is just gravy.

 

Now imagine this (going off of rumours). Deathwing Assault apparently lets us choose whether the Deathwing come in on turn 1 or turn 2 with no rolls. So take a few units of Black Knights, a Vengeance or two and rush 'em up the field for that 2+ cover save. On turn two bring down the Deathwing and charge the Black Knights in to combat.

 

It's like a refinement of the old doublewing tactic but with more variety and nuance in play. The Ravenwing units are now integral parts of the plan rather than being sacrificial beacons. We can now choose Deathwing deployment more precisely. We can either drop early (I wonder if scouts can take teleport homers now?) or drop later using the Ravenwing. And when the DW hit the dirt, split fire will make up for their small numbers by allowing them to rain death in every direction.

 

This sounds like it will be a fun tactic to explore (and still viable without including a single Deathwing as well). I can foresee People using the vengeance bubble with squads at longer ranges to create mobile fire-support bastions. And the Shroud Generator apparently also buffs charges in some way which is also kind of neat (could mesh well with the Deathwing Knights and their love of charging).

 

I can't wait to get my hands on the codex and dissect that thing. Hopefully it will prove to have more viable archetypes than our current one.

[Dread]

Amen to that. Been waiting a long time. Now maybe my army will be playable. Hope Beliel got fixed as well.

[Isiah]

Vengeance is Heavy Support as I understand, do we know if Black Knights are Elites or FA? Have I missed that somewhere? Tactics sound interesting as long as the Vengeance isn't ridiculously expensive.

 

Also, the pic shows the Apoth's bike with an Auspex maglocked to it. Be great if RW bikers had access to these things again (yet auspexes no longer have a function in 40K :P )

[Captain Idaho]

What I love about these rules is it forces players to stop building lists which cram shooting into the army and that's it, but actually take some assault units etc.

 

Great. :P

[Brother Immolator]

Black knights and Deathwing Knights will be elites choices and will also have the inner circle rule (some form of hatred).

 

The rest of the deathwing and ravenwing will be at their past slots, with them been unlockable as troop choices (at least Belial will do so for certain, things for the ravenwing are a bit muddy but I believe sam will do so too).

 

 

This will be a synergy codex in order to make the most out of it. It appears that our units will depend on one another and I have been told that tac squads will have a very active role in our lists. Mono or dual wing builds will be viable but not as a multy wing.

[facmanpob]

Jeremy Vetock's WFB army books have been all about synergy so these rumours aren't a big surprise to me, but they are very exciting :tu:

[L30n1d4s]

I agree with Captain Idaho that units like these will bring back more CC to DA specifically and 40K in general, which is great.

 

I also agree that this whole synergistic approach between Black Knights and LS Vengeances could be representative of the Codex as a whole wherein units have to be carefully integrated and coordinated IOT maximize their tactical value on the tabletop.

 

I am hoping that this synergy will carry over into "Greenwing" side of things, not just RW/DW tactics. This is just me theorizing, but in my ideal world, each of the "wings" would carry out the following roles, to use the Blacksmith analogy ;)

 

-Deathwing -- Linebreaker battle group (i.e. the "Hammer" of the DA army which delivers the decisive blows in the battle)

-Ravenwing -- Mobile battle group (i.e. the "Tongs" of the DA army, which shape, hold, and position the enemy for the hammer strike)

-Greenwing -- Core battle group which the RW/DW operate in support of (i.e. the "Anvil" of the DA army around which all maneuver, fire, and close combat are executed)

 

If you think about, although the Hammer and the Tongs are the more visible/glamorous aspects of a Blacksmith forge, probably the most important tool is actually the Anvil, which I think would be appropriate for the Greenwing if the new codex plays out in the manner described above.

[Brother Immolator]

I foresee a very happy 'L30n1d4s!

[L30n1d4s]

I hope you are right. We'll see what Greenwing has, but if they are reasonable points-wise and adaptable in terms of rules/wargear, I think they may be a very strong base for the new DA codex.

 

Here's hoping.

[Tamwulf]

Right now, I see no reason to take Green Wing at all.

 

Termy's and Bikes as Troops choices.

Speeders able to get insane cover saves.

A Gunship-style flyer with more firepower than anything else in the DA arsenal.

Pred's with rumored Plasma turrets.

 

This is something I posted about six months ago. Why would I ever take Greenwing units again when everything else is so much better in the Codex?

[Marshal Rohr]

Because they want to play a battle company and not the Ravenwing or Deathwing. I thought that'd be obvious...

[Tamwulf]

Because they want to play a battle company and not the Ravenwing or Deathwing. I thought that'd be obvious...

And that person would be playing to lose. <_<

 

If the rumors are to be believed.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Because they want to play a battle company and not the Ravenwing or Deathwing. I thought that'd be obvious...

And that person would be playing to lose. <_<

 

If the rumors are to be believed.

Not at all. I played DW armies when a termie was 52 points a pop and without 5+ inv save. And I played to win... uphill battle for sure but I still had my fun and my victories. Same goes for Ravenwing.... Rumors say nothing but maybe the green guys get some love and a fighting chance.

[Tamwulf]

Because they want to play a battle company and not the Ravenwing or Deathwing. I thought that'd be obvious...

And that person would be playing to lose. <_<

 

If the rumors are to be believed.

Not at all. I played DW armies when a termie was 52 points a pop and without 5+ inv save. And I played to win... uphill battle for sure but I still had my fun and my victories. Same goes for Ravenwing.... Rumors say nothing but maybe the green guys get some love and a fighting chance.

Right- you played nothing but Deathwing. What I'm saying is, will there be anything for Greenwing? Right now, it's not looking good for the guys in Green. Black and White are getting awesome! For someone like me, who plays with one Deathwing squad and one Landspeeder, everything else in Green... it's discouraging.

[Ronin_eX]

Right now, I see no reason to take Green Wing at all.

 

Termy's and Bikes as Troops choices.

 

This has actually been anti-confirmed (i.e. not true). As far as we can tell Deathwing are still Elites and Ravenwing are presumably still Fast Attack. The only native troop options are Tacticals and Scouts. You will need to take a special character (presumably) to unlock other troop options. We still do not know the mechanism by which DW and RW can become troops.

 

Speeders able to get insane cover saves.

 

And if they pay a lot for the option then they will be hard to fit in there. We also don't know which slot the Dark Shroud actually fits in. The Vengeance is Heavy Support.

 

A Gunship-style flyer with more firepower than anything else in the DA arsenal.

 

And again, if it costs a lot then it will be hard to lean on too much. And if the option for Tactical flakk is cheap enough (and it will be if we get the C: SM pricing like all the other options) then we probably wont need it for AA duty as much as other armies need a flyer to deal with a flyer.

 

Pred's with rumored Plasma turrets.

 

First, on which earth is a Predator not part of what one would consider the Greenwing? Greenwing is anything that isn't attached to the Deathwing or Ravenwing which the Dark Angels motor-pool definitely falls under. Second, while rumoured it certainly isn't in any of the previews so, again, jumping the gun a bit on this one. But if it does end up being in there then it is a boon to Greenwing forces, not a bane.

 

This is something I posted about six months ago. Why would I ever take Greenwing units again when everything else is so much better in the Codex?

 

The reason Greenwing stuff is maligned in the current codex is less an issue of performance, but rather an issue of cost:benefit ratio. Thumb through our codex and the vanilla codex and you will notice that almost any unit we share with them will be cheaper and better in some way. They also have more options to really rub the salt in. So in order to really compete we need to leverage the things we have that they don't. That leaves Ravenwing (who I still kind of think normal marine bikes beat out simply by being so cheap) and Deathwing. If, in our next codex the battle company stuff is brought in line with C: SM then it will be worth taking because it will be cheap and efficient. Like with most things in 40k cheap and efficient is a great reason to take something.

 

And of course I must point out that Ravenwing and Deathwing haven't gotten a whole lot of love over the last 16 years. Ravenwing have lost a lot of unique options since 2nd Edition (no more speeder armies, good bye attack bike squads, unique speeder variant gone, etc.) and the Deathwing have stayed almost completely the same since they were first introduced. Meanwhile battle companies now possess a fully unique veteran unit that is power and flexible and they received it in spite of the old prohibition on power armoured veterans (and also, if themes are your thing, they are the only veterans outside of the 1st Company in the game, so you can make a mono-company list and still field vet-marines in Dark Angels). It may not seem like much, but the battle companies have seen more love and growth than the Ravenwing or Deathwing have. This codex will change that and actually give focus (and uniqueness) to our two distinct companies. This is not a bad thing.

 

If battle companies get the re-costing and options they deserve and remain flexible and efficient, while the Ravenwing and Deathwing get some unique units and interesting specialists, then I don't see why you wouldn't want to use all of it.

[L30n1d4s]

I am hoping that not only will Greenwing be brought in-line with other MEQ codexes points wise, but that the new C:DA will include enough "force multiplier" elements to make things like Tacticals, AMs, Devastators, Vets, Scouts, etc. potent enough to compete with DW/RW on the battlefield.

 

By "force multipliers," I mean things like new DA Pyschic powers that benefit Greenwing units, the different kinds of banners that could benefit Greenwing units, army-wide rules (plasma re-rolls anyone) that could improve Greenwing units, etc., etc.

 

Anyway, we'll see in just a few days :jaw:

[Harleqvin]

3ish weeks can't come soon enough.

[Brother Immolator]

Because they want to play a battle company and not the Ravenwing or Deathwing. I thought that'd be obvious...

And that person would be playing to lose. <_<

 

If the rumors are to be believed.

 

If I can pull through victories on a footslogging PA army with the current codex anybody will be, more so with the new one.

[Brother Kovash]

Looks like I held off on building my bike army just long enough. If the codex as a whole becomes more synergetic, then I'll be very happy. I usually play games at 2000+ points already, so the more units I can take the better.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to point out Tactical Squads are pretty rubbish in every Codex for their points cost. If you DA Tactical squads to be worthwhile and thus collecting the rest of a Green-wing army being worthwhile, then they need a points decrease (if not changes) to work.

 

40K is designed with an idea flexibility rules and specialists are easily countered, with a points cost to match, but in practice generalists end up fighting specialists on their terms and thus being inefficient and weaker for the job in hand.

 

As an example, Fire Warriors will want to shoot Tactical Marines from a distance, which stacks the odds against the Tactical Marines since the Tau player will want to keep the opponent from closing the distance.

 

Likewise, Tactical Marines want to outshoot assault armies but again, their expensive cost limits the amount of shooting they can make against an opponent's list to take advantage of their flexibility.

 

So yeah, DA need to be the first army to have Tactical Marines cost 13pts a model, especially as they will have better Troops choices.

[Zebukkuk]

DA battle company units, just like other vanillia SMs like UMs, have to apply concentration of firepower to win. It's not that they are rubbish, they just require a different approach compared to some of the point-click-win units in the game.

 

Two or three tactical squads concentrating fire on one unit at a time (with supporting fire from vehicles) can make a mess of most things, while characters like Chaplains can provide potent counter-assault power. If DA are getting the rumoured 1 - 3 per Elites choice Chaplains then DA players will be able to get plenty of counter-assault for the regular units whilst still able to take plenty of anything else that is needed.

 

For DA battle company units it also helps to have an Assault Squad handy, considering all the opposing units that can deep strike and/or outflank.

 

Anyway if the LS Vengeance can offer Shrouding to any DA unit (not just RW) then DA battle company units just got a huge boost to their survivability!

[Haranin]

Concentrated fire is the goal; but tough to put into practice on the table top. Smart opponents will be putting pressure on you in multiple ways, so that gunning down one unit is just the cost of closing.

[Ronin_eX]

Hmm it appears that Company Veterans have ATSKNF, Combat Squads and... a rule called Grim Resolve that all of the Deathwing squads currently lack. I wonder if that is a unique one-off or our Chapter Tactic. I'm certainly curious.

 

I too am hoping that either we see a price reduction on our Tacs or that (if it is our Chapter Tactic) Grim Resolve is a really good special rule. If we don't get a major tactic then going down to 13-14 points per model on Tac squads will be a good start (to compete with the super-efficient Grey Hunters who are a mere 15). But I suppose we shall see.