2+ cover saves for Black Knights + LS Vengeance

[Brother Immolator]

Belial and sam will be making regular terminators and regular bikes respectively troops. Of that I am almost certain. The guy who I distill info from insists that tactical squads will be the backbone of our armies. Doesn't tell why though...

[notmattlythgoe]

Belial and sam will be making regular terminators and regular bikes respectively troops. Of that I am almost certain. The guy who I distill info from insists that tactical squads will be the backbone of our armies. Doesn't tell why though...

 

There was the rumor about larger tactical squads, maybe there is something we still don't know along those lines.

[Brother Amarel]

Hmm it appears that Company Veterans have ATSKNF, Combat Squads and... a rule called Grim Resolve that all of the Deathwing squads currently lack. I wonder if that is a unique one-off or our Chapter Tactic. I'm certainly curious.

 

I too am hoping that either we see a price reduction on our Tacs or that (if it is our Chapter Tactic) Grim Resolve is a really good special rule. If we don't get a major tactic then going down to 13-14 points per model on Tac squads will be a good start (to compete with the super-efficient Grey Hunters who are a mere 15). But I suppose we shall see.

Basic CSM's are 13pts without ATSKNF or Combat Squads. I suspect that DA Tacs will be 16 each, with whatever Grim Resolve is and either a points break or a special rule on Plasma.

[Tiger9gamer]

as a (soon to be former) C:SM player, I have seen that tactical squads need quite a boost. I'm not an expert, but I find that tacticals tend to cost too much for what they do. If they got down to be cheaper point wise, and if your able to take more than ten, I would be happy. I only hope that plasma is severely discounted for what you get, maybe even for the razorbacks.

[Brother Landrain]

as a (soon to be former) C:SM player, I have seen that tactical squads need quite a boost. I'm not an expert, but I find that tacticals tend to cost too much for what they do. If they got down to be cheaper point wise, and if your able to take more than ten, I would be happy. I only hope that plasma is severely discounted for what you get, maybe even for the razorbacks.

I agree they need some kind of boost. Atm the only other troops that they clearly outclass are IG.

They are supposed to be the finest warriors in the galaxy... sadly, not quite so.

 

Increasing squad size to 20 as per legion would be great.

I also really like the Legion ability to fire twice.

 

Plasma has been overpriced, especially pistols for a while. With the newest changes in 6th it has become better, but still think 15 points is too much.

 

As far as tacticals overal, To go by the fluff...

 

Tacticals should also always have BG, BP, CCW, the fact that only grey hunters remember to take their knives (It also explicitly viloates Rule #9).

Tacticals should have an offensive and a defensive grenade.

Tacticals should get a bonus to night fight due to their power armor helmet optics.

Tacticals should get a bonus to their 'poison' wound roll, due to their enhanced poison immunity.

Tacticals should be immune to gas grenades, and gas attacks/effects, due to enclosed power armor.

 

At that point, 15-20 pts would seem ok.

[Brother Amarel]

I think you're underestimating the value of ATSKNF, tbh. It's worth at least 2pts per model.

 

I can't see Plasma going down in price across the board (as the points are the same in C:CSM), but for DA it would make sense these days.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, on board performance is what matters. You can collect a whole bunch of special rules and start determining their value, but when you get to the table and you're blown off the board by your opponent then that is what costs really should matter.

 

And points values aren't comparable to other Codex choices as much as they are worked out for internal army balance. In fact, when authors of Codex books do make the mistake of comparing some units' points values with similar choices in other books, we get awful internal balance. Example; Grey Hunters and Bloodclaws. The BCs are priced reasonably as you'd expect if they were in another army book, but when you compare them to GHs you can see they need a 2-3points discount would have worked.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

IMHo we're straying off topic.. from LS combo to tactical squad point value discussion... specially when there another post dealing with the woes of tactical squads. :D

[Captain Idaho]

To swing it back; the new Ravenwing rules (rumours) can only be good for 40K as a whole. The only credible way to kill them with their awesome cover saves will be to charge, which means gun lines need to be re-thought.

 

And of course we want them appropriately priced so good old Tactical Marines remain a decent option.

[captain sox]

My 2cents

 

I think we're looking at things using the old Codex and old points costs, etc. The rumoured and assumed 2+ cover on the bikes and Vengeance are great, but we dont know the cost of the units, or unit sizes etc.

[shabbadoo]

They probably won't be any more expensive than what we already pay for RW bikes, which is 8 points more than vanilla marines pay. I wouldn't expect the RW Command Squad to be more than 30 points per model (if they don't come standard with plasma, which they might), and black nights to be more than 45 points per model, and that assumes the base model comes loaded with plasma and the hammer.

[L30n1d4s]

I am anticipating that Ravenwing Black Knights will have the following profile:

 

WS4 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

 

Wargear:

-PA

-Bolt Pistol

-Corvus Hammer (either some form of MC Thunder Hammer or something like S:+2 AP:3

-Frag/Krak Grenades

-Ravenwing Bike with Plasma Talon (i.e. TL-Plasmagun)

 

Special Rules:

-Fearless

-Skilled Rider

-Inner Circle

-Combat Squads

 

For all of that, IMHO a fair price would be 50-55 points a model. It only has a 3+ save and 1 wound, but has increased toughness, ability to turboboost and get a 3+ cover save, and a relentless, TL-ed Plasma gun (which is exceptionally valuable in its own right). On top of that, Fearless, a strong CC attack, and whatever the "Inner Circle" rule is (some form of Hatred?).

 

If these estimates are true (we will see shortly :D ) then a unit of 4 Black Knights would cost around 200 points... expensive, but not unreasonable for a true line-breaker unit like this. I know I would love to incorporate a unit like this as an ally to my core GK force, as it adds so much to the overall synergy of the force.

[Master Sheol]

I am anticipating that Ravenwing Black Knights will have the following profile:

 

WS4 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

 

Wargear:

-PA

-Bolt Pistol

-Corvus Hammer (either some form of MC Thunder Hammer or something like S:+2 AP:3

-Frag/Krak Grenades

-Ravenwing Bike with Plasma Talon (i.e. TL-Plasmagun)

 

Special Rules:

-Fearless

-Skilled Rider

-Inner Circle

-Combat Squads

 

For all of that, IMHO a fair price would be 50-55 points a model. It only has a 3+ save and 1 wound, but has increased toughness, ability to turboboost and get a 3+ cover save, and a relentless, TL-ed Plasma gun (which is exceptionally valuable in its own right). On top of that, Fearless, a strong CC attack, and whatever the "Inner Circle" rule is (some form of Hatred?).

 

If these estimates are true (we will see shortly :D ) then a unit of 4 Black Knights would cost around 200 points... expensive, but not unreasonable for a true line-breaker unit like this. I know I would love to incorporate a unit like this as an ally to my core GK force, as it adds so much to the overall synergy of the force.

The black knight wont have Fearless... They already have Inner circle... ALL DW units have only Inner circle and they all loose ATSKNF... This means that Fearless is part of the Inner circle special rule theat i guess will provide both fearless and hatred(chaos), or something like that...

It is rumored that the corvus hammers are like thunder hammers... i would say that they are more likely similar to power maces...

It is not known what is a plasma talon... it could be a TLPG or maybe some sort of plasmablaster...

50-55 points per model and you will suddenly see all the black knights models converted to regular bikes... The DW knights cost just 47 point per model so i guess that the Black knights will cost about 45 points per model too, maybe even cheaper...

All DA codex will have a massive reduction of costs except for TDA units that were the only ones tthat were undercosted...

 

The main point is that i want to see the real costs of the new DA LS to know if they can be valuable on the battlefield... Considering that they seem to have normal LS stats i can predict that they will be about 100 points per model...

[Brother Landrain]

I am anticipating that Ravenwing Black Knights will have the following profile:

 

WS4 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

 

Wargear:

-PA

-Bolt Pistol

-Corvus Hammer (either some form of MC Thunder Hammer or something like S:+2 AP:3

-Frag/Krak Grenades

-Ravenwing Bike with Plasma Talon (i.e. TL-Plasmagun)

 

Special Rules:

-Fearless

-Skilled Rider

-Inner Circle

-Combat Squads

 

For all of that, IMHO a fair price would be 50-55 points a model. It only has a 3+ save and 1 wound, but has increased toughness, ability to turboboost and get a 3+ cover save, and a relentless, TL-ed Plasma gun (which is exceptionally valuable in its own right). On top of that, Fearless, a strong CC attack, and whatever the "Inner Circle" rule is (some form of Hatred?).

 

If these estimates are true (we will see shortly :D ) then a unit of 4 Black Knights would cost around 200 points... expensive, but not unreasonable for a true line-breaker unit like this. I know I would love to incorporate a unit like this as an ally to my core GK force, as it adds so much to the overall synergy of the force.

 

Sammael has Hit and Run... and is an IC now.

Black Knights may get H&R, even if they do not,

 

Sammael can join a group of Black Knights, and we will finally have a Bike unit that is exceptional at close combat.

Add in a Chaplain and deal the pain...

So looking forward to this...

[AmCjkh]

The DW knights cost just 47 point per model so i guess that the Black knights will cost about 45 points per model too, maybe even cheaper...

 

A regular SM biker with a plasma gun costs 40 points already. The idea that RW knights, who have a twin linked plasma weapon, a power weapon of some variety, skilled rider, two attacks, inner circle, etc, might cost anything less than 50 points frankly scares me because of how under-priced they would be. I'm apprehensive about this unit because I never see any units as over-equipped as these RW knights; wolf guard, chosen, command squads, I never see people paying for both close combat and ranged upgrades because it's just way too expensive and it dilutes their focus. If RW knights are priced befitting their wargear then they'll be incredibly expensive. A SM command squad veteran on a bike with a plasma gun and a power weapon costs north of 70 points, which is absurd. Surely RW knights will be discounted from that, but how much? Too cheap and they're a huge steal for all their wargear, but too expensive (which, given their equipment, sounds plausible to me) and they become impractical for one wound models.

[Master Sheol]

The DW knights cost just 47 point per model so i guess that the Black knights will cost about 45 points per model too, maybe even cheaper...

 

A regular SM biker with a plasma gun costs 40 points already. The idea that RW knights, who have a twin linked plasma weapon, a power weapon of some variety, skilled rider, two attacks, inner circle, etc, might cost anything less than 50 points frankly scares me because of how under-priced they would be. I'm apprehensive about this unit because I never see any units as over-equipped as these RW knights; wolf guard, chosen, command squads, I never see people paying for both close combat and ranged upgrades because it's just way too expensive and it dilutes their focus. If RW knights are priced befitting their wargear then they'll be incredibly expensive. A SM command squad veteran on a bike with a plasma gun and a power weapon costs north of 70 points, which is absurd. Surely RW knights will be discounted from that, but how much? Too cheap and they're a huge steal for all their wargear, but too expensive (which, given their equipment, sounds plausible to me) and they become impractical for one wound models.

Black Knights are new models and the build of the kit (lack of bolter for bikes) means that you cannot use the kit to make regular bikers...

Too costy for the list means you will buy few boxes... So the Black knights/command squad must sell and to sell they need to be good...

I expect them to be under the 50 points per model...