Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 the Pyre Guard are mentioned in Promethean Son, I believe. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3268815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Ah, apologies. I jumped in at the end of thread and saw Dues' post as well as Shadow Master's and just picked apart the list from there and assumed that whatever wasn't listed hadn't been suggested. But yes, I do believe there is a distinction between bodyguards and the Elite. The Bodyguards are only suppose to be deployed alongside the Primarch. Sort of like a private army within the army. The Elite are, well they're the Elite. But if Betrayal does say that the Rampagers are the Elite, then they are the Elite as no other unit within the XII has been listed as an "Elite" unit. No apologies needed. The Deathshroud sticks in my craw. They are specifically described as bodyguards, not elites, they never go anywhere without their primarch. I think there is a short story about the Deathguard that mentions Typhon leading the "GraveWardens" or some such, but I'm not sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3268816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 From 'Betrayer' seems like Bersark might be a new Space Wolves elite/ champion unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3268817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Ah, apologies. I jumped in at the end of thread and saw Dues' post as well as Shadow Master's and just picked apart the list from there and assumed that whatever wasn't listed hadn't been suggested. But yes, I do believe there is a distinction between bodyguards and the Elite. The Bodyguards are only suppose to be deployed alongside the Primarch. Sort of like a private army within the army. The Elite are, well they're the Elite. But if Betrayal does say that the Rampagers are the Elite, then they are the Elite as no other unit within the XII has been listed as an "Elite" unit. No apologies needed. The Deathshroud sticks in my craw. They are specifically described as bodyguards, not elites, they never go anywhere without their primarch. I think there is a short story about the Deathguard that mentions Typhon leading the "GraveWardens" or some such, but I'm not sure. Not to mention there are only two of them!(Flight of the Eisenstein) Hmm, the only story I can think of with Typhon is The Lion, so that might be a good place to double check on it. I know I'll look as soon as I finish a few things. I think Bersark isn't an "elite unit" so much as a title given to a specific Champion. I'll go and double check on that to be sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3268819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Not to mention there are only two of them!(Flight of the Eisenstein) Well, there has been a slight change to that... In Forgeworld's Betrayal it mentions that the Deathshroud is indeed a unit with at least two of their number remaining withing 49 paces of their Primarch at all time. Oh and they are as elites as they come.. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3268903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Ah. I haven't touched Betrayal yet so I was unaware of that development. Although that is rather confusing a wee bit contradictory to FotE when it says "These two Astartes were the personal honour guards of the primarch, fated never to reveal their faces to anyone but Mortarion, even to the end of their lives. So it was said, the warriors of the Deathshroud were chosen by the primarch from the rank and file men of the Legion in secret, and then listed as killed in action. They were his nameless guardians, never allowed to venture more than forty-nine paces from their lord's side." To me, that passage gives the impression that only the two exist and that they serve as his bodyguards while being picked from the rank and file. Rank and file usually means average, so either these are rank and file soldiers who were about to become rising stars or they only became "elite" after they joined the Deathshroud. But, Forgeworld is Forgeworld, Black Library is Black Library and since I am one of those who believe "current is right" I will give up the point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Well, you know, consistnecy was never the strong feature of the 40k background! ;) But the fact is that Deathshroud now come (or will soon come) in units of 5 by FW - as recent pics showed. And they are an entry in the Betrayal with a minimum number of 2 and a maximum of 10... The funny thing is that there is this rule that allows them to act a bodyguard to any Terminator equipped Praetor of the Death Guard. Now if you read this as indirect fluff then I'm sure the change in the current perception would be even more severe... :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hmm, I'll be honest and admit that I don't pay much attention to Forgeworld. I like their minis but I'm not a big fan of "window shopping." Still, I'm not sure if the bodyguard rule would imply that they are a caste of warriors who simply protect higher-ranking individuals or if they are Elites spread throughout the Legion and can act as a bodyguard retinue if they feel so inclined. Would have to think on that one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 The Sons of Horus also had their elite assault troops that formed the other half of Abaddon's 1st company the Catulan Reaver Company Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Catulan Reaver Squad(Dramatis Personae of Hprus Rising). Assault Troops are a rarity after. Unless that's changed as well. In which case I might need to find a way to buy Forgeworld so I can keep up with the times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Catulan Reaver Squad(Dramatis Personae of Hprus Rising). Assault Troops are a rarity after. Unless that's changed as well. In which case I might need to find a way to buy Forgeworld so I can keep up with the times. Yep its changed they are a troop choice with 10-20 per squad well Assault squads are, no idea if the Catulan Reavers are going to be vanilla troops or a elite in a later book Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hmm, the way this is going, it seems less like inconsistency and more Forgeworld not really caring what BL has published. I really hope that's not the case. EDIT: misread. So just the Assault Squads are more present, Catulan Reaver is still just a single squad in Betrayal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hmm, the way this is going, it seems less like inconsistency and more Forgeworld not really caring what BL has published. I really hope that's not the case. EDIT: misread. So just the Assault Squads are more present, Catulan Reaver is still just a single squad in Betrayal? nope the reaver squad is listed as a company.... how big that company is we dont know, could be as little as 36 marines to 1000 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Then yeah, less like inconsistency and more like not caring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3269208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the emperor is scottish Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 I would have thought to become the personal body guard for you primarch would have required you to be something special. I would classify bodyguards as THE elite. Also doesn't flight day that two members are never more than 49 paces from their lord. That doesn't mean there are only two members just that there are always two in the company of motarion. After all garro was apparently nervy thinking he was going to be inducted into their number. The devourers at some point I would have defo said were the elite. Why else would they have been given access to the best and most brutal weapons available to the legion and why would competition to become one be so fierce and involve a fight to the death. Angron had a chip on his shoulder over the unit because he felt the need to have a bodyguard was a slight at him, that he needed to be protected. When angron and the rest of the legion lost their minds annoyance became open hatred. They became pariahs. And because angron treated them with such distain so did the legion. I'm sure because they couldn't keep up with angron in their terminator armour they became subject to ridicule as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 The Catulan Reavers are Legion Destroyers with Jump Packs. Lightning Tower mentions huscarl as a rank within Dorn's Bodyguard. The Templars are the VII Legions elite 1st Company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yes and no. As shown with the Death Shroud, they were basically rank and file soldiers who just happened to catch the Primarch's eye. No doubt that they received training which made them elite, but they most likely did not start out as elite. And IIRC, Betrayer makes mention that the Devourers had pit-fights to determine who was able to join and that in the early days, many World Eaters fought for the perceived honor of being in their ranks. However, part of Angron's derision is that they are not the best of his Legion as Khârn refused to join as did Delvarus and the Apothecary Kargos Bloodspitter defeated one of them in a fight and carved his name into their armor. So while the Devourers may be the best of those who fought to join its ranks, apparently they are not the best the Legion has to offer. Hmm, I don't recall mention of them having access to the best weaponry, maybe I read over that part. And IIRC, not being able to keep up with Angron was part of Angron's disdain for them. He not only felt that he shouldn't have bodyguards but if they were not the best of his men and could not keep up with him, they were not worth having around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Lightning Tower mentions huscarl as a rank within Dorn's Bodyguard. Not this again. Where in The Lightning Tower is huscarl mentioned as a rank within Dorn's bodyguard? I own both the original chapbook version and the later audio release of The Lightning Tower/The Dark King and I don't recall so much as a suggestion that huscarl is a rank within, or the title of, Dorn's bodyguard. I really wish people would stop pushing this fallacy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 I don't know Maddoc maybe it was the words 'huscarl bodyguard' after introducing Archamus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 But huscarl is a title given to the bodyguards of old Scandivinavian kings. It doesn't necessarily have to be a rank, it could be a title. However, until something concrete says one or the other, it would be better to assume it is a title as its original meaning was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 It's best simply to assume the title of Dorns bodyguard was huscarl. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Garro had a "huscarl" in FotE. He was an failed aspirant, an unmodified human servant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Derp double post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Derp derp. Triple post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 The Death Guard have Marshals and Ultramarines scouts are called initiates. Different strokes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268266-legion-elite/page/2/#findComment-3270205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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