Wolf Guard without terminator armour?

Angel Forge · December 22, 2012

Okay I have been playing with this idea for a while now, fielding a Logan Grimnar wolf guard army, but with a twist, ditching the termy armour (I have never really been a fan of a termy army, just doesn't seem space wolfy to me) and going for bog standard wolf guard...and using the extra points to make myself quite hard hitting (toying with the idea of a footslogging force tooled up with storm bolters). now in 5th ed this was a definate no-no... but in 6th the book counts wolf guard as characters, and get a heap of benifits as such, in my mind making it possiable that the extra points may be worth it. Before I put this into action I thought I would aproach the internet for sage advice... Is this as feasable as I think? Is it worth it? what do you guys think?

greysquigg · December 22, 2012

I've been playing with this idea also, but quickly came to the conclusion that your basically paying 3 pts for an extra attack and point of leadership per model.

It seems more cost efficient to me to stick that in with a squad of grey hunters and only pay 3 pts for 10 guys with an extra point of leadership.

I might be wrong but isn't it only wolf guard pack leaders that count as characters?

Also, if you were running squads of 10, that would come to 180 point with nothing in there that can take a challenge, which looks good on paper but bear in mind challenges are a largeish part of the battle now between two tactical squads.

Paying 3 pts 10 times for a point of leadership seams a bit silly to me when you can just put a pack leader in with a squad of grey hunters.

For only 10 points more you get two plasma guns and a power fist and wolf standard in a grey hunters squad.

You have to bear in mind also that stuff is allot more expensive for the power armour guys who die quicker.

Also you would have to take away their pistol for that bolter taking their basic attacks down to one.

With terminator armour, you get the storm bolter and power weapon with it + cheap upgrades which is what makes the logan wing army tick.

Once you think about it, the wolf guard in power armour are there to do one thing, which is upgrade the leadership value and add an extra power fist into a grey hunters squad. Your paying 3 pts instead of 30.

Terminators are just better on nearly all fronts cost or otherwise.

GS

Angel Forge · December 22, 2012

I've been playing with this idea also, but quickly came to the conclusion that your basically paying 3 pts for an extra attack and point of leadership per model.

It seems more cost efficient to me to stick that in with a squad of grey hunters and only pay 3 pts for 10 guys with an extra point of leadership.

I might be wrong but isn't it only wolf guard pack leaders that count as characters?

Also, if you were running squads of 10, that would come to 180 point with nothing in there that can take a challenge, which looks good on paper but bear in mind challenges are a largeish part of the battle now between two tactical squads.

Paying 3 pts 10 times for a point of leadership seams a bit silly to me when you can just put a pack leader in with a squad of grey hunters.

For only 10 points more you get two plasma guns and a power fist and wolf standard in a grey hunters squad.

You have to bear in mind also that stuff is allot more expensive for the power armour guys who die quicker.

Also you would have to take away their pistol for that bolter taking their basic attacks down to one.

With terminator armour, you get the storm bolter and power weapon with it + cheap upgrades which is what makes the logan wing army tick.

Once you think about it, the wolf guard in power armour are there to do one thing, which is upgrade the leadership value and add an extra power fist into a grey hunters squad. Your paying 3 pts instead of 30.

Terminators are just better on nearly all fronts cost or otherwise.

GS

Where as I see your point on a model to model basis (one termy is much better than one Norm) I think the bonus of numbers would swing it, an extra 5 pts per model for a storm bolter, an extra attack and leadership isn't that bad, when you consider that's a lot of extra attacks and no 'walking target' to remove that will kill that off. As for the loss of attack, I don't think thats right, as for as im aware (I'm away from books at the mo) but don't wolf guard come with bolt pistol, bolter and close combat weapon? and storm bolter swaps out bolter...so no loss there. As for them being characters, as far as im aware the book states that they indeed have the character type, the 6th ed rule book that is. As for the FAQ, which calls that into question, we don't really use those where I game and even then the wording of both sugest different things (when they are pack leaders they are independent characters otherwise they are a unit of characters, like Ork Nobs).

greysquigg · December 22, 2012

Just checked my codex and they do not get bolters.

It bothers me GW has to FAQ stuff like this. It means theres essentially two sets of rules floating about.

In the FAQ it says "Page 86 – Wolf Guard, Pack Leaders Add the following sentence to the end of the paragraph: “Furthermore, a Wolf Guard Pack Leader’s Unit Type becomes ‘Character’ in addition to its normal type."

So a wolf guard pack leader would become "infantry, character

The space wolves books doesn't tell us that they are characters at all there is no mention of it.

GS

MeatGrinder · December 22, 2012

Yeh, you could do this, however:

-No characters rule in the squads

-No wolf standard (wolf standards are OP)

-No special weapons aside from combis

-You will either have a bolter OR a bolt pistol, not both

Basically the lack of two ccws balances out the extra attack, and attaching a WGPL balances out the point of LD. The extra versatility is nice, but I doubt its worth the swap over, especially since upgrades are quite expensive for WG packs. Honestly the advantages of the troop WG is the extra elites slots and the terminator armour.

Squark · December 22, 2012

Yeh, you could do this, however:

-No characters rule in the squads

-No wolf standard (wolf standards are OP)

-No special weapons aside from combis

-You will either have a bolter OR a bolt pistol, not both

Basically the lack of two ccws balances out the extra attack, and attaching a WGPL balances out the point of LD. The extra versatility is nice, but I doubt its worth the swap over, especially since upgrades are quite expensive for WG packs.

Erm... Wolf Guard get a discount on wargear that both they and Grey hunters can take- Although it's so easy to fall into the lure of giving all of them power weapons, and suddenly you're more expensive than a purifier squad.

To clarify, though, Wolf Guard who have not joined another pack are not characters.

Page 411 – Reference, Profile, Codex: Space Wolves, Wolf Guard.
Change unit type to Infantry.

...

Designers Note: Wolf Guard, Nobz, Nobz Warbikers, and Crisis Shas’vre that lead a unit (for example an Ork Nob leading Ork Boyz, a Wolf Guard leading Grey Hunters) have (Character) added to their unit type.

Wulfebane · December 23, 2012

It is just not as cost efficient as a pack of grey hunters. Bolters are effectively non-assault stormbolters with the new rapid fire ranges. You're paying an extra 8 pts per model for a higher leadership (which just a pack leader would provide) and capabilities from loadouts that grey hunter standard loadouts already provide.

I can see the lure for discounted wargear, but all that wargear will just make them more enticing targets, and for only having 1 wound its not worth it considering how much more you're already paying.

skeletoro · December 23, 2012

I think it can be worth it to use power armoured wolf guard. For example:

1) When you want to reach that 5th (or 10th) model with the cyclone without spending the points (or transport spots) for 4 other terminators (obviously, you're going to be buying at least 1 terminator though!). If this is your goal, it might be worthwhile to buy a few 18 point models with bolters, and perhaps even pay the 3 points for storm bolters (as such a unit is likely to want to stay out of rapid fire range if possible, unlike most TDA models which really should be closing to melee ASAP). A pretty decent compromise might be 3 power armoured WG with storm bolters, and two terminators with storm bolters and power swords - one also with a CML. Long fangs have some notable advantages (for a similar cost, they have 2 1/2 times the missiles), but this unit is scoring and a bit more flexible.

2) When you want to add some very hard-hitting power axe + bolt pistol attacks to the back end of a close-combat terminator WG pack (where they can benefit from the TDA their pack mates' superior saving throws while dishing out substantially more damage per point spent in melee).

3) As a very cheap source of combi-weapon attacks. For instance, a 3 model suicide pack with combi meltas and a drop pod costs only 94 points. Not too bad.

However, I think it would definitely be a mistake to eschew TDA altogether. Although TDA has its weaknesses it really is very good if you play to its strengths. TDA WG are quite different units to grey hunters, tactically - grey hunters are a rapid fire counterattack unit, while wolf guard tend to be more of an assault unit (even when given ranged weapons). By avoiding TDA, you're missing out on many of the benefits (e.g. the heavy weapons, power weapons, etc) that you paid 275 points (logan) and 3 points minimum extra per model for.

Belfast · December 23, 2012

While these are all valid points, I think one of the biggest benefits that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that wolf guard can have any LR variant as a dedicated transport!

In other words, combine them with either a WGBL or WP and give that HQ saga of the hunter so they can outflank in the LR. You get less time in your opponents backfield but if you play in a meta where it's very likely to get popped heading into their backfield, this is a great way to assure you get in there.

the benefit of going with power armor for this as opposed to TDA is surely in terms of price reduction. With the variety of weapons available to both the TDA and PA, you will get similar killing power between the both but with greater survivability in the tda. A mix of both is probably your best option in the LR though.

skeletoro · December 23, 2012

While these are all valid points, I think one of the biggest benefits that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that wolf guard can have any LR variant as a dedicated transport!

In other words, combine them with either a WGBL or WP and give that HQ saga of the hunter so they can outflank in the LR. You get less time in your opponents backfield but if you play in a meta where it's very likely to get popped heading into their backfield, this is a great way to assure you get in there.

the benefit of going with power armor for this as opposed to TDA is surely in terms of price reduction. With the variety of weapons available to both the TDA and PA, you will get similar killing power between the both but with greater survivability in the tda. A mix of both is probably your best option in the LR though.

Is it really worth it to spend 240 pts or more on a land raider if you're outflanking with that unit anyway? Sure, land raiders have some firepower, but they're transports too. If it's unnecessary as a transport, then you have to ask: is it worth it for the firepower alone?

I had the same intuition as you regarding SotH + WG + LR being amazing, until I realized that for the same 350+ points invested in delivery I could provide a great transport for one wolf guard unit (and most likely successfully get where they need to be, due to AV14) and then put a second WG unit with the wolf priest. That's 2 squads taken care of!

In terms of price reduction, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Are you comparing 10 PA WG with 5 TDA WG? What weapons options? A power armoured wolf guard with a power weapon is 28 points, but a terminator is 33. If you're aiming to fill your raider (and want to gear up your power armoured models, I'd say go for the termies. On the other hand, if you're comparing 5 termies to 5 power armoured guys, I'm not sure that's appropriate. The power armoured guys ARE deadly (4 attacks on the charge!!) but they're super fragile for their points cost (almost TWICE as fragile as grey hunters!!!) Given that power axes are so awesome, I think you need to include at least 2-3 terminators in the unit. Then you can give all the power armoured guys axes. Also, remember that terminators are relentless, and can rapid fire their combi plasmas and charge straight out of the raider.

Wulfebane · December 23, 2012

the benefit of going with power armor for this as opposed to TDA is surely in terms of price reduction.

Right, so let's reduce the price a smidge by ignoring tda and more than double the point cost saved to make them an even bigger target, yet limiting their involvement in the game by atleast 1/5th. I honestly don't see the benefit versus just foregoing 1 pack out of 3 possible long fangs and getting a LR filled with grey hunters for less if price reduction is the benefit you're aiming for.

Rift Blade · December 23, 2012

I have to agree with several of the opinions above. While fluffy, All Wolf Guard units in PA while enticing & definitley characterful are a points a sink that usually do not pay for themselves. If used regularly, your opponents quickly realize which unit has to die first. I have played a pack of Wolf Guard in Rhino, Wolf Guard in a LRC with HQ. I have even tried a 10 man Wolf Guard pack with Jump Packs. While a lot of fun, they quickly become Target Primaris for your opponent. The devastation such units can deal out is pretty scary at times but being only 1 wound, just don't have the endurance. IMO, our Wolf Guard shine & are points effective when used as pack leaders.

Now that being said, if you want to play a game for fluff or fun reasons with such a unit, by all means. They are well worth it. My opponent & I laughed our butts off as a 10 man pack of Wolf Guard w/PA & PW's led by a Wolf Priest chewed through over 60 Boyz of his foot sloggin Ork army. All in all just my 2 cents.

helosv · December 23, 2012

Hi !

just to answer to squark about characters:

FAQ space wolves, version 1.1 (and it is the same in the french one...)

Page 86 – Wolf Guard, Pack Leaders

Add the following sentence to the end of the paragraph:

“Furthermore, a Wolf Guard Pack Leader’s Unit Type becomes

‘Character’ in addition to its normal type.

greysquigg · December 23, 2012

I could see giving a naked squad of wolf guard jet packs being fun, would be a massive point sink useable perhaps only in apocalypse games 4k+.